Rockingham to close
Discussion
chunder27 said:
And you are totally missing the point.
Assen is in the Netherlands, not Britain? How easy is that to understand the name is British Superbikes, I want all rounds to be in Britain, not one in Holland. It's that simple.
I doubt British GT at Spa gets 30,000 travelling fans mate, I seriously doubt they get even 10000, and if they do most will not be travelling or be with a team.
I have been to the odd sort of next level down from BTCC meeting and you can almost count the spectators at some of them.
I think your perceptions of some things might be a little biased maybe, or optimistic at best.
I think you've kind of got the point there. Most events including BGT are mainly taking money from the drivers. If more drivers will pay to drive Assen/Spa than Croft etc then the organiser is happy. They might not get 10,000 british fans at Spa, they might get 500 Belgians, but then they'd only get 500 at Croft so no biggy to them. I marshal at races, at most weekends it can be a game to try to spot a spectator.Assen is in the Netherlands, not Britain? How easy is that to understand the name is British Superbikes, I want all rounds to be in Britain, not one in Holland. It's that simple.
I doubt British GT at Spa gets 30,000 travelling fans mate, I seriously doubt they get even 10000, and if they do most will not be travelling or be with a team.
I have been to the odd sort of next level down from BTCC meeting and you can almost count the spectators at some of them.
I think your perceptions of some things might be a little biased maybe, or optimistic at best.
chunder27 said:
And you are totally missing the point.
Assen is in the Netherlands, not Britain? How easy is that to understand the name is British Superbikes, I want all rounds to be in Britain, not one in Holland. It's that simple.
I doubt British GT at Spa gets 30,000 travelling fans mate, I seriously doubt they get even 10000, and if they do most will not be travelling or be with a team.
I have been to the odd sort of next level down from BTCC meeting and you can almost count the spectators at some of them.
I think your perceptions of some things might be a little biased maybe, or optimistic at best.
Annddddd there you go again. Using the worst examples to justify your point. You want BSB to have all races in the U.K. despite the fact Assen is a huge success and justify it by saying british gt doesn’t get 30000 spectators at spa. Assen is in the Netherlands, not Britain? How easy is that to understand the name is British Superbikes, I want all rounds to be in Britain, not one in Holland. It's that simple.
I doubt British GT at Spa gets 30,000 travelling fans mate, I seriously doubt they get even 10000, and if they do most will not be travelling or be with a team.
I have been to the odd sort of next level down from BTCC meeting and you can almost count the spectators at some of them.
I think your perceptions of some things might be a little biased maybe, or optimistic at best.
The fact is BSB DOES get 30000 spectators at its foreign race.
Do you expect the DTM, aussie v8s, NASCAR and Indycar to only hold races in their own country too?
Other than the name BRITISH what possible reason would you want the BSB to drop a highly successful meeting at Assen which is loved by spectators, riders and sponsors for a dreary mid September meeting at Croft?
kers having daft arguments. Leaves.I do have concerns about European races, as they are sometimes predicated upon the delusion that everybody driving is an aspirant F1 driver, and therefore needs experience at tracks like Spa . That's fine ,if it isn't at the direct expense of an established UK round, and is more the icing on the cake, and who wouldn't love to race at Spa or Magny Cours etc once in while ?
But it is a slippery slope and it is ironic that the country which has such a presence on the motorsport scene should suffer .We make nearly every F1 car, and our home GP gets enormous crowds compared to bad jokes like Azerbaijan.
We also have a rich motorsport heritage , with most of our circuits having held F1/2/3 F5000 races in their past, but a preciousness has crept in which means far too many series organisers and drivers think that having a race at Mallory , Croft or Thruxton is now beneath them . Until the early 2000s my local track , Croft, held wonderful F3/GT races and seeing frenetic F3 battles and serious stars like John Nielsen in cars like the McLaren F1 GTR was a bloody treat.
In the past at Croft I've seen everybody from Pace and Hunt to Button , Hamilton and Raikkonen. At Cadwell and Mallory I've seen Peterson , Lauda , Senna , Sulllivan and Nilsson etc but the chances of seeing similar in future are bleak . And it isn't the crowd size - we used to get serious numbers for GT etc. But now ? Unless it's BTCC , not so much for the typical clubbie perhaps , but a decent historic meeting has them queuing up ....
But it is a slippery slope and it is ironic that the country which has such a presence on the motorsport scene should suffer .We make nearly every F1 car, and our home GP gets enormous crowds compared to bad jokes like Azerbaijan.
We also have a rich motorsport heritage , with most of our circuits having held F1/2/3 F5000 races in their past, but a preciousness has crept in which means far too many series organisers and drivers think that having a race at Mallory , Croft or Thruxton is now beneath them . Until the early 2000s my local track , Croft, held wonderful F3/GT races and seeing frenetic F3 battles and serious stars like John Nielsen in cars like the McLaren F1 GTR was a bloody treat.
In the past at Croft I've seen everybody from Pace and Hunt to Button , Hamilton and Raikkonen. At Cadwell and Mallory I've seen Peterson , Lauda , Senna , Sulllivan and Nilsson etc but the chances of seeing similar in future are bleak . And it isn't the crowd size - we used to get serious numbers for GT etc. But now ? Unless it's BTCC , not so much for the typical clubbie perhaps , but a decent historic meeting has them queuing up ....
coppice said:
I do have concerns about European races, as they are sometimes predicated upon the delusion that everybody driving is an aspirant F1 driver, and therefore needs experience at tracks like Spa . That's fine ,if it isn't at the direct expense of an established UK round, and is more the icing on the cake, and who wouldn't love to race at Spa or Magny Cours etc once in while ?
But it is a slippery slope and it is ironic that the country which has such a presence on the motorsport scene should suffer .We make nearly every F1 car, and our home GP gets enormous crowds compared to bad jokes like Azerbaijan.
We also have a rich motorsport heritage , with most of our circuits having held F1/2/3 F5000 races in their past, but a preciousness has crept in which means far too many series organisers and drivers think that having a race at Mallory , Croft or Thruxton is now beneath them . Until the early 2000s my local track , Croft, held wonderful F3/GT races and seeing frenetic F3 battles and serious stars like John Nielsen in cars like the McLaren F1 GTR was a bloody treat.
In the past at Croft I've seen everybody from Pace and Hunt to Button , Hamilton and Raikkonen. At Cadwell and Mallory I've seen Peterson , Lauda , Senna , Sulllivan and Nilsson etc but the chances of seeing similar in future are bleak . And it isn't the crowd size - we used to get serious numbers for GT etc. But now ? Unless it's BTCC , not so much for the typical clubbie perhaps , but a decent historic meeting has them queuing up ....
For a lot of those circuits the issue is noise.But it is a slippery slope and it is ironic that the country which has such a presence on the motorsport scene should suffer .We make nearly every F1 car, and our home GP gets enormous crowds compared to bad jokes like Azerbaijan.
We also have a rich motorsport heritage , with most of our circuits having held F1/2/3 F5000 races in their past, but a preciousness has crept in which means far too many series organisers and drivers think that having a race at Mallory , Croft or Thruxton is now beneath them . Until the early 2000s my local track , Croft, held wonderful F3/GT races and seeing frenetic F3 battles and serious stars like John Nielsen in cars like the McLaren F1 GTR was a bloody treat.
In the past at Croft I've seen everybody from Pace and Hunt to Button , Hamilton and Raikkonen. At Cadwell and Mallory I've seen Peterson , Lauda , Senna , Sulllivan and Nilsson etc but the chances of seeing similar in future are bleak . And it isn't the crowd size - we used to get serious numbers for GT etc. But now ? Unless it's BTCC , not so much for the typical clubbie perhaps , but a decent historic meeting has them queuing up ....
For Croft and Combe the restrictions are tight, Mallory I think is the same. And this rules out series like British GT. As does an aspect of safety, from speaking to some of the series drivers and teams the idea of running a grid of 20 GT3 cars round somewhere with run off like Combe had them looking a touch wide eyed....
StevieBee said:
It is and should be more popular than it is. I know a bit about this having got close to launching a motorsport marketing business back in the mid-00s (with another PHer).
The issue then - and I assume remains - is that there is no single entity that sees its self as the marketer or promotor of events. A circuit owner hires its circuit to a club. Providing the owner gets his hire fees, he's happy. The club recovers the hire fees through entry fees from participants. As long as they get this, they are happy.
Spectators are seen as PiA by many circuits as they need food, beer, bogs and people to tell them where and how to park as apparently racegoers lack the competency to do this themselves. As such, there's no real desire to promote the smaller events beyond the season ticket holder enthusiasts.
The problem is that as circuit hire fees increase so race-entry fees increase which makes an already expensive sport more expensive which is felt most by those that participate at club level. Grids shrink which lessens the spectacle making it more difficult to attract spectators.
From memory, we calculated that around 5,000 spectators paying £12 to attend a clubby at Brands would generate sufficient revenue to a level that would cover all circuit costs and avoid the need for the circuit to charge a hire fee to the clubs. Not only that, a not insignificant prize fund could be made available. The theory was that the racing would become cheaper, the grids would become fuller and the racing more exciting as the drivers were racing for a tangible prize (cash) rather than a cheap trophy and would cost them less money to do so.
This wouldn't apply to all circuits. It would be difficult to get 5,000 people to, say Cadwell. But Brands Hatch is what, less than 20 miles from Central London. Again, I can't recall the exact figures but something like 12 million people live within an hours drive of Brands.
The concept never took off because neither the clubs of circuit owners wanted to invest (what was a reasonably modest sum that they would have got back within 12 months - probably sooner) and there was a clear difference of opinion as to whether the clubs of circuits should be the primary beneficiaries.
Basically, they couldn't be arsed....didn't see the need.
Jonathan Palmer (who was the most positive towards the concept) has probably done more on the spectator front than any other owner since John Webb but he's largely preaching to the converted.
Late to the thread but as a longtime competitor this post sums up the sorry state of UK club motorsport.The issue then - and I assume remains - is that there is no single entity that sees its self as the marketer or promotor of events. A circuit owner hires its circuit to a club. Providing the owner gets his hire fees, he's happy. The club recovers the hire fees through entry fees from participants. As long as they get this, they are happy.
Spectators are seen as PiA by many circuits as they need food, beer, bogs and people to tell them where and how to park as apparently racegoers lack the competency to do this themselves. As such, there's no real desire to promote the smaller events beyond the season ticket holder enthusiasts.
The problem is that as circuit hire fees increase so race-entry fees increase which makes an already expensive sport more expensive which is felt most by those that participate at club level. Grids shrink which lessens the spectacle making it more difficult to attract spectators.
From memory, we calculated that around 5,000 spectators paying £12 to attend a clubby at Brands would generate sufficient revenue to a level that would cover all circuit costs and avoid the need for the circuit to charge a hire fee to the clubs. Not only that, a not insignificant prize fund could be made available. The theory was that the racing would become cheaper, the grids would become fuller and the racing more exciting as the drivers were racing for a tangible prize (cash) rather than a cheap trophy and would cost them less money to do so.
This wouldn't apply to all circuits. It would be difficult to get 5,000 people to, say Cadwell. But Brands Hatch is what, less than 20 miles from Central London. Again, I can't recall the exact figures but something like 12 million people live within an hours drive of Brands.
The concept never took off because neither the clubs of circuit owners wanted to invest (what was a reasonably modest sum that they would have got back within 12 months - probably sooner) and there was a clear difference of opinion as to whether the clubs of circuits should be the primary beneficiaries.
Basically, they couldn't be arsed....didn't see the need.
Jonathan Palmer (who was the most positive towards the concept) has probably done more on the spectator front than any other owner since John Webb but he's largely preaching to the converted.
I had a long discussion with a previous manager at Croft about taking a more hands on approach to racing there and promoting events - her attitude was in essence "Why bother? The clubs pay the fees, we all get paid".
Meanwhile it's not in the club's interest to promote as any gate money goes to the circuit.
As a result club racing gets ever more expensive and ever more exclusive. Goodwood, Le Mans and to a lesser extent The Gold Cup and Nostalgia weekend shows that 'ordinary' (ie. non motorsport) people do want to watch and will travel to motorsport events, but for £50 for a family of 4 there needs to be more than a burger van and grids of 15 cars.
But while the clubs (and by extension the competitors) are in the hole to pay the circuit costs without having any incentive to increase attendance, what is there to improve the experience of people at the meetings and attract bigger crowds?
Edited by Mark Benson on Tuesday 4th September 14:43
Oh dear
Croft got huge crowds as Assen does. So did Mallory and Mondello. Why drop successful events to go to Holland?
The only reasons I can think are safety and Palmers delusions of grandeur. Sarcastic yes but possible.
Maybe also those venues can't really cope with BSB, but for that I give you Cadwell, false pits, massive logistical issues compared to other venues. But hey that's an MSV track, don't drop that can we.
As for the club racing situation, I have massive sympathy. It is so cheap to attend, it's hardly big money. Not sure why anyone would begrudge paying tenner to watch a clubbie bikes or cars. Combe have done a superb job, engaged locally, got a very good group of series and drivers, just like Brands an Lydden did a few years ago until the Dorans ruined it all by pushing basically one race a year and squeezing all else out in some ways.
But, the issue comes harder when bigger events charge a lot more for me, the standards are not always that much higher yet you are paying an awful lot more. I know why obviously, but sometimes the extra cost is simply not reflected in action or services to the punter, it is basically a con.
As a fan a lot of club meetings are not fun, long races, often duplicated, mean less interest for fans, great for drivers track time, but not fans. But really, have clubbies ever been that massively supported in reality? Probably not.
Croft got huge crowds as Assen does. So did Mallory and Mondello. Why drop successful events to go to Holland?
The only reasons I can think are safety and Palmers delusions of grandeur. Sarcastic yes but possible.
Maybe also those venues can't really cope with BSB, but for that I give you Cadwell, false pits, massive logistical issues compared to other venues. But hey that's an MSV track, don't drop that can we.
As for the club racing situation, I have massive sympathy. It is so cheap to attend, it's hardly big money. Not sure why anyone would begrudge paying tenner to watch a clubbie bikes or cars. Combe have done a superb job, engaged locally, got a very good group of series and drivers, just like Brands an Lydden did a few years ago until the Dorans ruined it all by pushing basically one race a year and squeezing all else out in some ways.
But, the issue comes harder when bigger events charge a lot more for me, the standards are not always that much higher yet you are paying an awful lot more. I know why obviously, but sometimes the extra cost is simply not reflected in action or services to the punter, it is basically a con.
As a fan a lot of club meetings are not fun, long races, often duplicated, mean less interest for fans, great for drivers track time, but not fans. But really, have clubbies ever been that massively supported in reality? Probably not.
snowen250 said:
As does an aspect of safety, from speaking to some of the series drivers and teams the idea of running a grid of 20 GT3 cars round somewhere with run off like Combe had them looking a touch wide eyed....
This will be a growing problem for UK circuits as GT3 cars keep getting faster. I wonder how much longer Oulton Park will be on the British GT calendar? In a few years British GT could just be Silverstone, Donington and Brands Hatch plus a foreign round whilst the other circuits just get a GT4 race. I suspect this is also part of SRO's thinking behind the new GT2 class.jurbie said:
snowen250 said:
As does an aspect of safety, from speaking to some of the series drivers and teams the idea of running a grid of 20 GT3 cars round somewhere with run off like Combe had them looking a touch wide eyed....
This will be a growing problem for UK circuits as GT3 cars keep getting faster. I wonder how much longer Oulton Park will be on the British GT calendar? In a few years British GT could just be Silverstone, Donington and Brands Hatch plus a foreign round whilst the other circuits just get a GT4 race. I suspect this is also part of SRO's thinking behind the new GT2 class.By 2020 I would not be surprised if it is not announced that GT4 is the new GT3.
For certain Croft and Combe are not suitable for a grid of GT3 cars. Oulton is unusual as other than Island Bend there is enough run off in the right places, even if i does seem tight. Just n the same way that there is not enough run off at Croft, even though you would have thought that, other thn turn 1, they have enough room to put it in.
I have to say that i am stretching my memory back as to if GT1 ever did make it to Croft as part of BGT. IIRC it was GTO and then GT3 cars only.
Of bloody course Croft can take GT3 cars- given that it has run much quicker F3 cars, not to mention GT1 , GT2 and GT3 - as well as Historic F2 , F Renault etc. I really cannot abide the self importance some race series affect about circuit suitability - if (for example) _Rindt raced F2 at Thruxton, Stewart F1 at Oulton and Peterson F2 at Mallory, all far faster than a pumped up Bentley - let's get a sense of proportion . GT 3 cars are brisk enough but if drivers are worried about a shunt at Combe or wherever then how come so many queue to race at the 'Ring?
coppice said:
Of bloody course Croft can take GT3 cars- given that it has run much quicker F3 cars, not to mention GT1 , GT2 and GT3 - as well as Historic F2 , F Renault etc. I really cannot abide the self importance some race series affect about circuit suitability - if (for example) _Rindt raced F2 at Thruxton, Stewart F1 at Oulton and Peterson F2 at Mallory, all far faster than a pumped up Bentley - let's get a sense of proportion . GT 3 cars are brisk enough but if drivers are worried about a shunt at Combe or wherever then how come so many queue to race at the 'Ring?
Monacocoppice said:
Of bloody course Croft can take GT3 cars- given that it has run much quicker F3 cars, not to mention GT1 , GT2 and GT3 - as well as Historic F2 , F Renault etc. I really cannot abide the self importance some race series affect about circuit suitability - if (for example) _Rindt raced F2 at Thruxton, Stewart F1 at Oulton and Peterson F2 at Mallory, all far faster than a pumped up Bentley - let's get a sense of proportion . GT 3 cars are brisk enough but if drivers are worried about a shunt at Combe or wherever then how come so many queue to race at the 'Ring?
Yes, of course the circuit can take GT3 cars.the issue I believe is noise instead.
Also remember that a series like British GT is not run 'for the fans' but rather for wealthy gentleman racers to go have fun in GT cars. Now given the choice do you think they'd rather race at Spa, or Croft? And no disrespect to Croft, seeing as my first ever race meeting as a 4 year old was watching rallycross there!
But I think we are perhaps straying away from the reasons Rockingham is to be close.
Croft run rallies and rallycross with cars using anti lag, that car wise is far noisier than most things.
But invariably talking to people that do this, it is often the PA that is the main culprit noise wise at some venues.
This is what is so frustrating about Rockingham, middle of a massive industrial estate, massive site, surely no real noise issues. Such a shame they could not just rip out the oval, build a decent, proper race track instead of what they did and built inside an infield. The oval was a white elephant, just like Lausitzring was.
What needs to be asked is who actually did the research to think it would EVER work? They need shooting really.
But invariably talking to people that do this, it is often the PA that is the main culprit noise wise at some venues.
This is what is so frustrating about Rockingham, middle of a massive industrial estate, massive site, surely no real noise issues. Such a shame they could not just rip out the oval, build a decent, proper race track instead of what they did and built inside an infield. The oval was a white elephant, just like Lausitzring was.
What needs to be asked is who actually did the research to think it would EVER work? They need shooting really.
chunder27 said:
This is what is so frustrating about Rockingham, middle of a massive industrial estate, massive site, surely no real noise issues. Such a shame they could not just rip out the oval, build a decent, proper race track instead of what they did and built inside an infield. The oval was a white elephant, just like Lausitzring was.
What needs to be asked is who actually did the research to think it would EVER work? They need shooting really.
with that said, rockingham would never have been built if it was just another road course. its sole purpose was to be a testing facility for lola/ Reynard and bring champ cars to the UKWhat needs to be asked is who actually did the research to think it would EVER work? They need shooting really.
chunder27 said:
GT certainly ran at Croft in the late 90's.
Cadwell might get big numbers, but if it were not a Palmer circuit, I believe it would have been dropped on safety grounds. let's just leave it there.
You have any facts to back your statement up,i deal with a motorcycle race team and their riders do not back your comment up.Cadwell might get big numbers, but if it were not a Palmer circuit, I believe it would have been dropped on safety grounds. let's just leave it there.
With Rockingham closing, but presumably a similar number of events/ series/ clubs wanting to put on races, maybe excellent circuits like Anglesey will get more use and some higher profile meetings. Yes, I know its an hour and half further than Oulton, but it is the best circuit in the country (and I say that as someone that lives 1 mile from Donington Park) and in a beautiful location.
Well worth the effort to visit.
Well worth the effort to visit.
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