The MSA have changed their name and logo

The MSA have changed their name and logo

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Discussion

FNG

4,157 posts

223 months

Saturday 17th November 2018
quotequote all
Jerry Can said:
not surre they are ridiculously accessible. You have to go and find them, then deal with an archaic motor club that is stuck in the 1960's and deal with petty politics and bureaucracy. A target market would be the max power brigade in as much as they have an interest in cars and will spend money on them. But I can't see the old boys at a motor club welcoming these ruffians to their 12 car event.
And those younger prospective lifelong motorsport participants would want nothing to do with the stuffy blazer brigade nor want to be tied in to loads of regs, forms, procedures and protocols.
Look at how drift days have taken off. They don’t operate in the way the majority of MSA events do. There could be a clue there as to why they’re popular and how they’ve grown.

MG CHRIS

9,077 posts

166 months

Saturday 17th November 2018
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Don't know why people still respond to chunder on this and other forums he's consently knocking every kind of motorsport, any new events or anyone that doesn't support his view.
The change looks like a good idea just had my pack through for 2019 and its certainly an improvement on last year.

As for cheap and affordable track times there is plenty of events and run for not a lot of money. Most tracks re open for track days or track sessions on action days on most tracks around the country from castle combe too croft. Also most people aren't far from a kart track for cheap racing.

Sprinting and hill climbs seem too be very popular and some are run outside msa/muk rules like javelin and jap sprint series which are always full which allows near on stock road cars to single seaters. Then you have drift events which is hugely popular with the younger generation there is no excuse for the can't afford to go on track quote used far to often. There is also a ton of events that allow new people looking to join into motorsport to speak and meet new series, teams etc etc. Silverstone recently held just one a few weeks back.

The one thing that needs looking into though is cancelling or merging series with low grid numbers under 15. There are far too many championships and series which could be merged with others or not allowed to run full stop. Nobody wants too see a 20 min race with less than 10 cars for example lmp3 uk series had 4 cars on track tcr uk had on average less than 10 junior clio championship less than 8 could go on.

One thing that which I think should be encouraged is my local championship welsh saloon and sports car championship runs a rebate scheme where anything over 19/20 cars for each car that has entered above that everyone gets £10 back to either bank for end of year or have straight back. So if 32 cars enter you get £120 back from the £300 entry fee whuch encourages current members too get new people to join as its benificall too everyone. The organisers gets more cars on the grid, drivers have more cars too race against and spectators get a better race.

chunder27

2,309 posts

207 months

Saturday 17th November 2018
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Really no need to be so nasty Welshman?

Three is nothing overly negative about my posts on this topic, more ideas and things to think about.

You clearly just read the username and respond as most other blind people do on here, so your comments are worthless. And you are a competitor with a vested interest you even admit, so again, clearly worthless responding to my comments.

A lot more can be done, not everyone has the dream of doing autosolo or karting, to catch peoples attentions you need to do more, that imagination is simply not there anymore.

It's called marketing, and all the MSA do is make token gestures and take millions off people all year.

Again, no criticism of people running events, doing them, participating. Not at all, I am tlaking about the governing body doing more to attract people into competing, not bloody timekeeping marshalling, none of that stuff, competing, and doing something worthwhile not driving round cones in ASDA

MG CHRIS

9,077 posts

166 months

Saturday 17th November 2018
quotequote all
chunder27 said:
Really no need to be so nasty Welshman?

Three is nothing overly negative about my posts on this topic, more ideas and things to think about.

You clearly just read the username and respond as most other blind people do on here, so your comments are worthless. And you are a competitor with a vested interest you even admit, so again, clearly worthless responding to my comments.

A lot more can be done, not everyone has the dream of doing autosolo or karting, to catch peoples attentions you need to do more, that imagination is simply not there anymore.

It's called marketing, and all the MSA do is make token gestures and take millions off people all year.

Again, no criticism of people running events, doing them, participating. Not at all, I am tlaking about the governing body doing more to attract people into competing, not bloody timekeeping marshalling, none of that stuff, competing, and doing something worthwhile not driving round cones in ASDA
Again proves my point about you ignore completely what I said. You are dimissing the new organisation before any real changes have happened. It doesn't take a lot to get involved in anything msa related stuff or not everything is a finger tap away.

df76

3,615 posts

277 months

Saturday 17th November 2018
quotequote all
There is absolutely zero chance of motorsport becoming significantly cheaper. Also lot's of different ways to get into track driving, for example Action Days at Castle Combe are huge - but not something that I'd want to attend. General track days also massive, and most actually have no interest in racing.

No doubt that the local clubs at the grass roots could modernise, some are reallly excellent and it's all voluntary of course. Also difficult for the senior members to keep up with the digital changes and the potential benefits. Totally dependent on people getting involved.

Has to be a positive change from MSA to Motorsport UK. First request is for the committees to start publishing the regular meeting minutes. Decisions must be available to all.




Drumroll

Original Poster:

3,739 posts

119 months

Saturday 17th November 2018
quotequote all
"not bloody timekeeping marshalling, none of that stuff, competing, and doing something worthwhile not driving round cones in ASDA"

So chunder are you saying timekeepers and marshals are not worthwhile.? I was out on the Pokerstars Rally last weekend and the marshals and timekeepers who where out on in the wind and rain Friday night deserve medals, not derision from you. Also several of those marshals/timekeepers also compete, they were putting something back into the sport. Something you clearly don't.

You moan that people have a go at you, but if you actually stood back and read your posts there is no wonder.



l354uge

2,892 posts

120 months

Sunday 18th November 2018
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As far as I can understand, chunder, you want Sebastian ogier and Colin turkington to give up a weekend and drive people around Silverstone for free, and this will fix motorsport in the UK and make it more 'visceral'?

I started doing targas and autosolos after leaving uni last year, it's been fantastic affordable fun, with some real hard driving and the right amount of risk. Most clubs have been easy to deal with and all entry processes have been quickly completed online.

My friends never knew these kind of events existed, and still don't think they have the resources to compete, so they stick to Karting and Trackdays. And this is the problem, promotion and availability.
You have to look out for these events, and then you have to make the effort to travel to them. The nearest targa to us this year was 90 miles away. I live within 25 miles of mallory Park, Donington and Silverstone.

One thing I could suggest is some events are run as arrive and drive like Karting. If people will pay £250 a day for club 100 you can get some paying £100ish for a targa or autosolo, which then takes the intimidation of 'preparing' or 'ruining' your road car.

Jerry Can

4,424 posts

222 months

Sunday 18th November 2018
quotequote all
df76 said:
There is absolutely zero chance of motorsport becoming significantly cheaper. Also lot's of different ways to get into track driving, for example Action Days at Castle Combe are huge - but not something that I'd want to attend. General track days also massive, and most actually have no interest in racing.

No doubt that the local clubs at the grass roots could modernise, some are reallly excellent and it's all voluntary of course. Also difficult for the senior members to keep up with the digital changes and the potential benefits. Totally dependent on people getting involved.

Has to be a positive change from MSA to Motorsport UK. First request is for the committees to start publishing the regular meeting minutes. Decisions must be available to all.
I think there is a chance of making motorsport cheaper and therefore more accessible if the various agencies involved in running and event worked together. You have the age old problem of everyone trying to make a living (profit) from a relatively small market.

for example, club racing. Circuits don't generally allow motor clubs to keep gate receipts. Therefore clubs have no incentive to promote. Castle Combe at one point in the noughts were getting 10k plus spectators through the gates for club events. at say £10 a person that's a significant income, some of which could be used to offset the cost of circuit hire and thus reduce entry fees. CC were happy to do this as the organising club and circuit were the same people. MSVR for example are less inclined to do this. For all of MUK's desire to increase participation you have to get the circuit owners on board, and JP doesn't do charity.

Equally club racing should be activity centres at the same time, i.e. you pay to watch the race but you can also have a go at the rally school located on site, or maybe an auto solo is set up in the car park or an auto test with the option for species to have a go. How many times do you see a go motorsport stand at a club race. You don't because the casual speccy looking for a day out doesn't go because it is not advertised for the previous reasons.

I think all competition vehicles should be log booked possibly to higher standards than today. This should be chargable at say £150 and then once passed, that log book proves safety eligibility for that vehicle to compete. Scruts can then only fail a vehicle based on condition of safety equipment and not age with the competitor having the right to appeal. If these log books were electronically available you could then email the log book as part of your entry which would save the club, and MSA stewarding costs/time on the event and reduce requirements for officials/marshalls. You can then do a random selection on the day and pull a couple of cars per race for spot checks. For the competitor the advantage is more time available on competition day as you don't have to queue for scrutineering - unless spot checked. For the club the advantage is less cost and frees up more time, for the MSA cars can be continually documented and updated electronically, better for reducing likelihood of theft and also seeing how vehicles are changed, and finally if officials make a note of cars involved in crashes then these can be added to the spot check at the next event, or indeed the competitor can update electronically for approval any safety changes required - e.g. a testing of belts or refill of extinguisher. Time for the MSA to invest in and to use technology to help the competitor cut costs.

EDLT

15,421 posts

205 months

Sunday 18th November 2018
quotequote all
FNG said:
Jerry Can said:
not surre they are ridiculously accessible. You have to go and find them, then deal with an archaic motor club that is stuck in the 1960's and deal with petty politics and bureaucracy. A target market would be the max power brigade in as much as they have an interest in cars and will spend money on them. But I can't see the old boys at a motor club welcoming these ruffians to their 12 car event.
And those younger prospective lifelong motorsport participants would want nothing to do with the stuffy blazer brigade nor want to be tied in to loads of regs, forms, procedures and protocols.
Look at how drift days have taken off. They don’t operate in the way the majority of MSA events do. There could be a clue there as to why they’re popular and how they’ve grown.
As far as I know, short oval racing is also still very popular (although I don't watch it) and it seems the process of taking part requires filling in one form, paying a fee and turning up with a car. They'll let you race even if you're not "the right sort"!

Kinkell

537 posts

186 months

Monday 19th November 2018
quotequote all
There is an abundance of motorsport out there for most budgets. My first hillclimb in 1977 involved putting an on/off hand written sticker on the ignition switch of my mini and wearing a helmet. The present road car class requires a bit more now but is still affordable for many a young driver. I helped out yesterday at a local targa rally where there were no helmets or cages required and some of the tests were very entertaining for the old duffers in pre 1980 machinery and young drivers in more modern cars. It was a full day of driving fun for a £ 120 entry fee with lunch and dinner thrown in.

thepawbroon

1,146 posts

183 months

Monday 19th November 2018
quotequote all
Kinkell said:
There is an abundance of motorsport out there for most budgets. My first hillclimb in 1977 involved putting an on/off hand written sticker on the ignition switch of my mini and wearing a helmet. The present road car class requires a bit more now but is still affordable for many a young driver. I helped out yesterday at a local targa rally where there were no helmets or cages required and some of the tests were very entertaining for the old duffers in pre 1980 machinery and young drivers in more modern cars. It was a full day of driving fun for a £ 120 entry fee with lunch and dinner thrown in.
Thanks for helping out, I was there - competing in a £250 Fiat Punto. We had as much fun as we had when we used to do stage rallies, for small fraction of the cost.

bucksmanuk

2,311 posts

169 months

Monday 19th November 2018
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Another scrutineer here
The reason why you have to queue for scrutineering is because there aren’t enough scrutineers. Because that keeps the cost down. It would help if certain scrutineers actually did their fair share too…. It would also help if some competitors did some basic checks to make sure they are actually ready for scrutineering. We are given 6 minutes to safety check a car. There are chiefs who will kick you off the team if you don’t keep to your 6 minute time slot.

I know a scrutineer who is giving up at the end of this year after being sworn at too many times. There are many more of us retiring than starting. 2019 is my last year.

The regulations aren’t down to the MSA per se, they are approved by the MSA to make sure they don’t interfere with The (badly written) Blue Book ….hmmm….. and maybe The Yellow Book. They are usually created by the championship co-ordinator and some interested competitors, and the co-ordinator usually has a truly desperate job of making sure all the drivers are as pacified as they can be.

If some strong voices in the championship want the regs all vague and woolly, then that’s what they are. Then someone turns up with a full wallet and does chequebook motorsports with an amazing car. Then the complaints start about that someone with the “bent” car because it has loads of shiny bits on it. If the competitors want cheaper motorsport, then it’s down to those competitors to have a stronger voice in the formation of the regulations – AND be happy to see them policed – AND be happy to see their fees spent on test gear to make sure everyone isn’t cheating. There are increasing amounts of championships with dyno testing to cut down on high horsepower cars, or make them compete in the correct class of championship. Yet more cost….

Rumour has it that a front of the grid Mini Miglia is thought to be a 6 figure car.
Production championship – a slightly modified car with £10K’s worth of new dampers on it, every year, not all the suspension, just the dampers. The back-of-the-grid competitors do their whole season on half that, entry fees, tyres, fuel, minor crash damage…
Production championship –slightly modified cars with £8K blueprinted engines. These engines are supposed to be standard.
Another production championship where the front runners are fitting new treaded tyres shaved to the appropriate depth, at every race meeting. The boys and girls at the back are doing a season on the same tyres. This means a tyre budget almost 15 times what the back-of-the-grid driver has. There are strong rumours of tyre softeners used in this championship as well.
Another production championship with a front runner having a full test day every single week on that circuit prior to a meeting, rumoured to be sometimes under the tutelage of a professional race car driver.

All the above is SUPPOSED TO BE almost bottom rung of the ladder cheap clubby motorsport, apart from the Minis. There is nothing in most regs to stop this happening, the other competitors are doing it.

If the competitor wants the regulations to be policed and the racing cheap, then the regulations have to define what a standard car is. This means regulations, not 20 pages thick, but sadly 60 pages thick. Even then, people are still fitting dodgy bits. I look after a championship, and I can’t get off anyone as to what the standard front and rear track width build tolerance is. It’s as basic as that at times….

As for the OP’s first post, I’ve always bought all my own MSA clothing, measuring gear etc.…

As for competition log books for circuit cars, this is would be manna from heaven for us, but apparently, there are many other circuit competitors who think otherwise.

Getting rid of dull races would be nice too. 4 LMP3’s wandering around Brands for an hour. Still, I had a nice lunch, a pint and a chat in that time…

I’ve said this before elsewhere, but if you think it’s not being done properly, either by the MSA and/or any of their representatives or the circuit owners, rally managers, etc.… then turn up on an event, and see what goes on behind the scenes and why, especially when it all goes very very wrong.

Wingo

298 posts

170 months

Wednesday 21st November 2018
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I would see motorsport Uk facilitating local clubs to attract new competitors of ages as a well as encouraging lapsed competitors back.
That is going to involve a significant slimming down of the blue book IMHO, it's too complex and creates ambiguities.

As for youngsters not being interested in local clubbie events in my experience that is a long way from the truth, a good quarter or third of entries at one of my local clubs monthly autotests are not of an age to hold a driving licence. We don't hold these events in a supermarket car park either.
The "stuffy" blazer wearing oldies don't seen to mind as long as the youngsters wear a cravat with their hoodies, girls are excused the cravat completely, unbelievable?eekbiggrin

The problem is one of stereotypes? I would hope those into motorsport in all its forms could be a little more open minded.

Wingo.



300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 21st November 2018
quotequote all
Wingo said:
As for youngsters not being interested in local clubbie events in my experience that is a long way from the truth, a good quarter or third of entries at one of my local clubs monthly autotests are not of an age to hold a driving licence.

I suspect the real issue here is retaining the members. Most young drivers are only their because they have a parent interested in the sport (who is probably ultimately funding them to compete).

Once these young people reach an age where they have their own Independence, many don't stay with motorsport for what ever reason.

For instance, in the example you gave, if you took all the young drivers out of the equation. How many ladies aged 25-35 are competing? I'm willing to bet not many.

snowen250

1,090 posts

182 months

Wednesday 21st November 2018
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A reason you possibly don't see many 21-25 year olds competing is that at this point of life wages are low (for many) and saving for a house / owning the car you want takes over the purse strings.

Hence why so many come back to competition in their mid years.

Jerry Can

4,424 posts

222 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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got my 2019 'landscape not portrait' licence today.

no blue book as apparently no one wants it. so that'll save a few pounds at the printers yet still my license was expensive.

slight tangent, what is with the blue 'competitor' sticker stamped with an FIA logo? I can see it would fit a windscreen, but whose. I don't fancy it on my road car as it might attract all sorts of unwanted attention, and plod would have a field day with the opening gambit one liners if I get caught speeding with that in the window.

so any ideas as to where is should go?


sfaulds

653 posts

277 months

Saturday 1st December 2018
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Jerry Can said:
slight tangent, what is with the blue 'competitor' sticker stamped with an FIA logo? I can see it would fit a windscreen, but whose. I don't fancy it on my road car as it might attract all sorts of unwanted attention, and plod would have a field day with the opening gambit one liners if I get caught speeding with that in the window.

so any ideas as to where is should go?
Mine went in the bin with the lanyard and plastic holder.

MrJingles705

409 posts

142 months

Sunday 2nd December 2018
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Got my licence today - was nice to be able to renew online with preexisting medicals (so no more writing out a paper form for a squint I've had corrected since birth for example) so that's progress. Saving paper on the blue book is laudable, although I'll still miss it.

Like others though, not sure why they couldn't have made the organisational changes they have done without the cost of going through a rebranding exercise (not just for the MSA, but for anyone who uses their logo/name.... from scrutineers right through to championship coordinators). Seems a bit of a waste really, wonder how much that will all cost in the end?

velocemitch

3,795 posts

219 months

Sunday 2nd December 2018
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Don’t you get a blue book anymore? Not too keen on that idea, I refer to it quite a lot as an organiser and club official.

I was interested to here Dave Richards navigated on a Road Rally this weekend, The Eagle, a full on Welsh event. Good man, shows he’s serious about supporting grass roots. Shame they didn’t finish.

Kraken

1,710 posts

199 months

Sunday 2nd December 2018
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No printed version anymore. In this day and age it's far easier to have a fully searchable PDF version. I always found it nigh on impossible to find what I wanted in the print version in a hurry at the track so I always used the PDF version. Got to have a laptop for the ECU anyway and it works on a phone too.