2019 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and all other)!
Discussion
MSN Circuit Rally at Donington tomorrow. Would be worth going to if local.
https://www.doningtonrally.co.uk/
https://www.doningtonrally.co.uk/
It was a decent event. But Palmer has ruined things even more, the entire thing now is all on sealed surface, nearly all of it on the track, cars never get to top gear.
And worst of all to prevent drivers going on the grass the team even put up tyre barriers on corner exits on the race track in some areas, so if you spun, you didn't just go on the grass, you hit tyres at 60 mph doing totally unnecessary damage.
Having said that, you get the yang, loads of new toilet blocks, a new paved entry way from the car park, and new asphalt path whole length of melbourne loop.
Just sadly this is not real rallying, it is rallying on his terms and he knows it, Go on the grass, you will probably damage your car, don't go anywhere interesting as I have to spend money repairing it afterwards and I cant control this as well as I want to.
The event was dominated by the Smiths, but there were good drives, watching Westy broadside down Craners was fabulous. Some great class drives too.
Weather was drizzly then hosing it for second half. So i left at about 3.
And worst of all to prevent drivers going on the grass the team even put up tyre barriers on corner exits on the race track in some areas, so if you spun, you didn't just go on the grass, you hit tyres at 60 mph doing totally unnecessary damage.
Having said that, you get the yang, loads of new toilet blocks, a new paved entry way from the car park, and new asphalt path whole length of melbourne loop.
Just sadly this is not real rallying, it is rallying on his terms and he knows it, Go on the grass, you will probably damage your car, don't go anywhere interesting as I have to spend money repairing it afterwards and I cant control this as well as I want to.
The event was dominated by the Smiths, but there were good drives, watching Westy broadside down Craners was fabulous. Some great class drives too.
Weather was drizzly then hosing it for second half. So i left at about 3.
chunder27 said:
It was a decent event. But Palmer has ruined things even more, the entire thing now is all on sealed surface, nearly all of it on the track, cars never get to top gear.
And worst of all to prevent drivers going on the grass the team even put up tyre barriers on corner exits on the race track in some areas, so if you spun, you didn't just go on the grass, you hit tyres at 60 mph doing totally unnecessary damage.
Having said that, you get the yang, loads of new toilet blocks, a new paved entry way from the car park, and new asphalt path whole length of melbourne loop.
Just sadly this is not real rallying, it is rallying on his terms and he knows it, Go on the grass, you will probably damage your car, don't go anywhere interesting as I have to spend money repairing it afterwards and I cant control this as well as I want to.
The event was dominated by the Smiths, but there were good drives, watching Westy broadside down Craners was fabulous. Some great class drives too.
Weather was drizzly then hosing it for second half. So i left at about 3.
You do realise that it was a sealed surface circuit rally (no competitor would want grass or gravel) and that Palmer would have had zero involvement in the running of the event??And worst of all to prevent drivers going on the grass the team even put up tyre barriers on corner exits on the race track in some areas, so if you spun, you didn't just go on the grass, you hit tyres at 60 mph doing totally unnecessary damage.
Having said that, you get the yang, loads of new toilet blocks, a new paved entry way from the car park, and new asphalt path whole length of melbourne loop.
Just sadly this is not real rallying, it is rallying on his terms and he knows it, Go on the grass, you will probably damage your car, don't go anywhere interesting as I have to spend money repairing it afterwards and I cant control this as well as I want to.
The event was dominated by the Smiths, but there were good drives, watching Westy broadside down Craners was fabulous. Some great class drives too.
Weather was drizzly then hosing it for second half. So i left at about 3.
chunder27 said:
It was a decent event. But Palmer has ruined things even more, the entire thing now is all on sealed surface, nearly all of it on the track, cars never get to top gear.
And worst of all to prevent drivers going on the grass the team even put up tyre barriers on corner exits on the race track in some areas, so if you spun, you didn't just go on the grass, you hit tyres at 60 mph doing totally unnecessary damage.
Having said that, you get the yang, loads of new toilet blocks, a new paved entry way from the car park, and new asphalt path whole length of melbourne loop.
Just sadly this is not real rallying, it is rallying on his terms and he knows it, Go on the grass, you will probably damage your car, don't go anywhere interesting as I have to spend money repairing it afterwards and I cant control this as well as I want to.
The event was dominated by the Smiths, but there were good drives, watching Westy broadside down Craners was fabulous. Some great class drives too.
Weather was drizzly then hosing it for second half. So i left at about 3.
Obviously you have never been to a rally on Mull or the Isle of Man.And worst of all to prevent drivers going on the grass the team even put up tyre barriers on corner exits on the race track in some areas, so if you spun, you didn't just go on the grass, you hit tyres at 60 mph doing totally unnecessary damage.
Having said that, you get the yang, loads of new toilet blocks, a new paved entry way from the car park, and new asphalt path whole length of melbourne loop.
Just sadly this is not real rallying, it is rallying on his terms and he knows it, Go on the grass, you will probably damage your car, don't go anywhere interesting as I have to spend money repairing it afterwards and I cant control this as well as I want to.
The event was dominated by the Smiths, but there were good drives, watching Westy broadside down Craners was fabulous. Some great class drives too.
Weather was drizzly then hosing it for second half. So i left at about 3.
I am pleased you actually went to event for once, but still you have to have a good moan. The MSN Circuit Rally Championship in association with MSVR gets good entries, so clearly a lot of competitors don't agree with you. It also attracts a lot of spectators.
chunder27 said:
I have been to a lot of MSV events, and they all share the same format.
Dont go on the grass!
Define a lot, 10+, 20+ 30+Dont go on the grass!
Yes MSV don't like cars going on the grass and your problem with this is? Surely the skill is to drive a car fast within set limits. If the event was on say Mull or the IOM the limit would be the width of the road that is certainly narrower than a race track.
You clearly know very little about how events are organised and what restrictions are put on the organisers. But expect everything to be done to meet your warped expectations.
I am a spectator so no, I don't know everything that has to be done, if I did I would still have the same opinion. ANd would likely not be invovled as the way this company treats raly organisers is pretty strange
I go to watch, and have seen the standard of these type of events drop even in a few years.
Allowing a car to spin onto grass if a mistake is made is fair, no driver wants to touch it in the wet, will avoid it in wet, yet placing cones on the kerbs, and a tyre stack there too achieve what?
Other than ensuring a crew who make an error will certainly damage their car? Is this a forest? No. So why is this done.
I am fully aware of the the restricions placed on events, but even more are now placed on spectators. Why care you say? Well some of them are useful to you, help clubs, help crews even marshal to some extent.
Obviously some are also the reason why these issues are there.
And, as usual, people like you concentrate on the negative, a mentioned quite a few positive things too. But hey, it's me so go ahead!
I go to watch, and have seen the standard of these type of events drop even in a few years.
Allowing a car to spin onto grass if a mistake is made is fair, no driver wants to touch it in the wet, will avoid it in wet, yet placing cones on the kerbs, and a tyre stack there too achieve what?
Other than ensuring a crew who make an error will certainly damage their car? Is this a forest? No. So why is this done.
I am fully aware of the the restricions placed on events, but even more are now placed on spectators. Why care you say? Well some of them are useful to you, help clubs, help crews even marshal to some extent.
Obviously some are also the reason why these issues are there.
And, as usual, people like you concentrate on the negative, a mentioned quite a few positive things too. But hey, it's me so go ahead!
chunder27 said:
I am a spectator so no, I don't know everything that has to be done, if I did I would still have the same opinion. ANd would likely not be invovled as the way this company treats raly organisers is pretty strange Not strange at all they are running a business and will hire a circuit out on their terms. Absolutely no different to any other business
I go to watch, and have seen the standard of these type of events drop even in a few years. have to disagree with you on this, I see little difference since the MSN championship started
Allowing a car to spin onto grass if a mistake is made is fair, no driver wants to touch it in the wet, will avoid it in wet, yet placing cones on the kerbs, and a tyre stack there too achieve what? whilst to a point I agree, in context of the hire agreements the clubs have to be seen to do something
Other than ensuring a crew who make an error will certainly damage their car? Is this a forest? No. So why is this done. see previous comment
I am fully aware of the the restricions placed on events, but even more are now placed on spectators. Why care you say? Well some of them are useful to you, help clubs, help crews even marshal to some extent. You constantly go on about this, but I am still seeing plenty of spectators at events. To be honest after the events of 2014 things had to change. Maybe when (as I did) you have done CPR on a "spectator" you will perhaps fully understand why things needed to change. In context of rallying at circuits nothing has changed.
Obviously some are also the reason why these issues are there.
And, as usual, people like you concentrate on the negative, a mentioned quite a few positive things too. But hey, it's me so go ahead! You could try just for once being positive and accept the negatives could just be yours
I go to watch, and have seen the standard of these type of events drop even in a few years. have to disagree with you on this, I see little difference since the MSN championship started
Allowing a car to spin onto grass if a mistake is made is fair, no driver wants to touch it in the wet, will avoid it in wet, yet placing cones on the kerbs, and a tyre stack there too achieve what? whilst to a point I agree, in context of the hire agreements the clubs have to be seen to do something
Other than ensuring a crew who make an error will certainly damage their car? Is this a forest? No. So why is this done. see previous comment
I am fully aware of the the restricions placed on events, but even more are now placed on spectators. Why care you say? Well some of them are useful to you, help clubs, help crews even marshal to some extent. You constantly go on about this, but I am still seeing plenty of spectators at events. To be honest after the events of 2014 things had to change. Maybe when (as I did) you have done CPR on a "spectator" you will perhaps fully understand why things needed to change. In context of rallying at circuits nothing has changed.
Obviously some are also the reason why these issues are there.
And, as usual, people like you concentrate on the negative, a mentioned quite a few positive things too. But hey, it's me so go ahead! You could try just for once being positive and accept the negatives could just be yours
Changing the subject....
Statement from the Jim Clark Rally organisers:
http://www.jimclarkrally.org/
While it's not quite the "all systems go" it does show an increased level of confidence.....
cheers,
Duncan
Statement from the Jim Clark Rally organisers:
http://www.jimclarkrally.org/
While it's not quite the "all systems go" it does show an increased level of confidence.....
cheers,
Duncan
So then
Using Donington as an example.
the initial events used a small infield section, it was easy to police, fans could get a bit closer, see the cars doing something other than driving round tyres, and made the event pass off better, tell me where the harm is in that tot he venue or anything? Nothing really was damaged apart from a tiny areas of poorly laid asphalt. And there was also a cool little area near the pit entry where the cars got really close, you could stand in some great places to get photos and see the cars close up in perfect safety, that is all gone too.
While this is obviously nothing to do with the clubs, why don't they stick up for themselves a little bit? if Palmer wants these events why are the clubs dictated to, to such a degree that the events become so utterly unchallenging for the crews, dull for the fans that they will drift away. People will always come, its a dead time, MSV know they have a captive audience hence why ticket prices go up nearly year for these events and the quality goes down of entries and stages.
Cadwell is fine, better venue obviously, even Snetterton was OK, but Donington has been neutered beyond belief.
Regarding the cones and tyres, I see no reason to have them there other than to try and damage cars. If I was a driver I would asking questions about this. Fair enough the silly little man doesn't want you going on the grass, it cannot always be prevented, why ENSURE that in some cases cars will be damaged, when all that is done is perhaps a rake through of the gravel or some tyre tracks on some grass?
And please give up with the negativity vibe, these are suggestions, thoughts on why things are changed for no real reason other than to ensure a venue where racing takes place, tracks days, all sorts of stuff so a few pence has to be spent doing minor gardening, I just don't get it.
I have attended countless these events, if I was that negative I wouldn't go would I, so give up with that spin rubbish. I just fail to see why some deciisons are taken that take the shine off the events for a few fans and probably crews.
Using Donington as an example.
the initial events used a small infield section, it was easy to police, fans could get a bit closer, see the cars doing something other than driving round tyres, and made the event pass off better, tell me where the harm is in that tot he venue or anything? Nothing really was damaged apart from a tiny areas of poorly laid asphalt. And there was also a cool little area near the pit entry where the cars got really close, you could stand in some great places to get photos and see the cars close up in perfect safety, that is all gone too.
While this is obviously nothing to do with the clubs, why don't they stick up for themselves a little bit? if Palmer wants these events why are the clubs dictated to, to such a degree that the events become so utterly unchallenging for the crews, dull for the fans that they will drift away. People will always come, its a dead time, MSV know they have a captive audience hence why ticket prices go up nearly year for these events and the quality goes down of entries and stages.
Cadwell is fine, better venue obviously, even Snetterton was OK, but Donington has been neutered beyond belief.
Regarding the cones and tyres, I see no reason to have them there other than to try and damage cars. If I was a driver I would asking questions about this. Fair enough the silly little man doesn't want you going on the grass, it cannot always be prevented, why ENSURE that in some cases cars will be damaged, when all that is done is perhaps a rake through of the gravel or some tyre tracks on some grass?
And please give up with the negativity vibe, these are suggestions, thoughts on why things are changed for no real reason other than to ensure a venue where racing takes place, tracks days, all sorts of stuff so a few pence has to be spent doing minor gardening, I just don't get it.
I have attended countless these events, if I was that negative I wouldn't go would I, so give up with that spin rubbish. I just fail to see why some deciisons are taken that take the shine off the events for a few fans and probably crews.
chunder27 said:
Using Donington as an example.
Regarding the cones and tyres, I see no reason to have them there other than to try and damage cars. If I was a driver I would asking questions about this. Fair enough the silly little man doesn't want you going on the grass, it cannot always be prevented, why ENSURE that in some cases cars will be damaged, when all that is done is perhaps a rake through of the gravel or some tyre tracks on some grass?
Just to address this point, some perspective from an organiser's point of view. Regarding the cones and tyres, I see no reason to have them there other than to try and damage cars. If I was a driver I would asking questions about this. Fair enough the silly little man doesn't want you going on the grass, it cannot always be prevented, why ENSURE that in some cases cars will be damaged, when all that is done is perhaps a rake through of the gravel or some tyre tracks on some grass?
One of the trickiest and financially impactful aspects of rallying is securing venues. Thankfully WW2 left a lot of M.O.D. venues suitable for tarmac rallying, but these are getting scarcer and scarcer, and the ones that remain are often in poor condition. All venues cost the organisers money.
So, if you can secure a venue (e.g. race circuit) at a price that makes sense (remembering the organisers take the financial risk of not getting a full entry) then you'll probably have to accept some conditions (e.g. tyres / cones to protect property). What you might see as raking gravel or a few tyre tracks on the grass, is actually a large financial impact for the owner (or on your words, "silly little man"). Someone has to be paid to fix it, to return the venue to the prior condition. If he passes that onto the organisers, then most likely the event cannot be made financially viable.
The reason the cones and tyres are there, is to remind competitors where the boundaries are. On a circuit, you can't see them as well as, for example, trees, ditches or cliffs. As someone referenced above, in the forests or on Mull / Jim Clark / many venues, going over the boundary has a very serious consequence. Drivers are used to it. And they make driver errors which they will acknowledge. The co-driver has a map to keep them right, so there's no excuse.
As a retired driver / navigator (who's hit a few cones and tyres) and current organiser / marshal and very occasional spectator, I am fully behind it. As it seems are the many competitors who flock to the MSN/MSV Circuit rallies.
You are free to express your opinion but it's very clear that many won't agree with you.
PS just for your fun, here's a photo of me hitting an aircraft tyre.
And it is also very clear that those watching with me at these venues do agree with me as we all have the same sort of opinions on thee circuit rallies.
Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
chunder27 said:
And it is also very clear that those watching with me at these venues do agree with me as we all have the same sort of opinions on thee circuit rallies.
Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
Lucky for us all, there are a plethora of spectator-friendly closed road rallies Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
you can thank the MSA (now Motorsport UK) for that. Legend Fires North West Stages
Corbeau Seats Rally Clacton
Jim Clark Rally (subject to legislation)
Rali Bae Ceredigion
Three Shires Stages
maybe Mull Rally (subject to legislation)
Couple others I've heard on the grapevine......
chunder27 said:
And it is also very clear that those watching with me at these venues do agree with me as we all have the same sort of opinions on thee circuit rallies.
Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
Whinge, whinge, moan, moan, you really cant help yourself with your ill informed opinions. You just can't except that things needed to change. Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
As has been pointed out to you (several times on various threads) when clubs hire a venue they have to abide by what the landowner/promoter puts in their contract. Be that no spectators, no going on the grass, not using certain parts of venue etc. That is the same if it is circuit, an old airfield a forest or any other venue. NOTHING TO DO WITH MOTORSPORT UK (formally MSA) MOTORSPORT UK do put some restrictions on but that is mainly due to insurance requirements.
Look I used to love the old RAC, when we went from stage to stage over several days, but I also accept that things needed to change. It really wasn't that safe for competitors, marshals and officials to be driving so far with little sleep, breaks etc.
I am passionate about my motorsport (to the extent that I delayed having surgery for lung cancer so I could go to the Mull Rally) and have been involved for over 40 years.
I do have a go at you perhaps more than some. It is just that your constant moaning about how things were better in the day, without acknowledging that things needed to move on (and perhaps you need too as well)
chunder27 said:
And it is also very clear that those watching with me at these venues do agree with me as we all have the same sort of opinions on thee circuit rallies.
Don't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
well I was there and don't necessarily agree. yes they could put a bit more gravel in, but I understand why, when the roads have just been done that they don't want to tear them up, plus all the extra barriers/ setup required to do it. Oulton has some gravel sections but its easy to corden off the track, and its already used as the rally school/ 4x4 courseDon't get me wrong they are still good, but the challenge is less than it might be, that's all.
but we are not what the venues want. We are old school, remember what rallying should be, not what these sort of events and the MSA have now made it.
it is getting there, slowly, but single venues have long since gone as an even slightly reasonable spectator event even for knowledgeable, safe and informed speccies.
plus to be fair, the clue is in the name MSA Circuit Rally Championship....
...if you want to see a non circuit rally then don't go to a circuit....
It's a shame these experts in event organisation don't help such as pawbroon in putting events on. They might have some idea of the hoops organisers have to jump through for an event to go ahead then. Much easier to moan on the internet I suppose, especially about how things were much better in 1972.
I was going to suggest Chunder goes to the Mull Rally if it happens this year but he'd probably moan that the hill road has been resurfaced and there's a fence alongside the steps. And as for that armco stopping cars from falling in the sea at Calgary...
I don't particularly like the idea of rallying on circuits but it's become a successful format and is getting way more spectators than modern forest rallying. Like it or not the majority of spectators these days aren't interested in finding ways into forests, walking miles, cooking their own bacon butties, crapping in the woods etc, they want easy viewing, burger vans, toilets, commentary etc. There are still ways of watching rallying in an "old school" way but going to the circuit championship isn't one of them.
I was going to suggest Chunder goes to the Mull Rally if it happens this year but he'd probably moan that the hill road has been resurfaced and there's a fence alongside the steps. And as for that armco stopping cars from falling in the sea at Calgary...
I don't particularly like the idea of rallying on circuits but it's become a successful format and is getting way more spectators than modern forest rallying. Like it or not the majority of spectators these days aren't interested in finding ways into forests, walking miles, cooking their own bacon butties, crapping in the woods etc, they want easy viewing, burger vans, toilets, commentary etc. There are still ways of watching rallying in an "old school" way but going to the circuit championship isn't one of them.
DelicaL400 said:
It's a shame these experts in event organisation don't help such as pawbroon in putting events on. They might have some idea of the hoops organisers have to jump through for an event to go ahead then. Much easier to moan on the internet I suppose, especially about how things were much better in 1972.
I was going to suggest Chunder goes to the Mull Rally if it happens this year but he'd probably moan that the hill road has been resurfaced and there's a fence alongside the steps. And as for that armco stopping cars from falling in the sea at Calgary...
I wouldn’t pay too much attention to Chunder. I was going to suggest Chunder goes to the Mull Rally if it happens this year but he'd probably moan that the hill road has been resurfaced and there's a fence alongside the steps. And as for that armco stopping cars from falling in the sea at Calgary...
Let’s be honest, he’d moan about there being snow if he visited the North Pole....
Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff