2022 Rallying Thread (WRC, ERC and national rally)
Discussion
ArnageWRC said:
Nice day out spectating in Sweetlamb for the Rallynuts Stages; bright, sunny, if a bit cool, and loads of cars - and two Fiat 131 Abarths.....Went to the bowl for the first run, but then went exploring further into the stage for the second run.
Arnage, did you find yourself penned in and unable to move around. Asking for a friend.Drumroll said:
Arnage, did you find yourself penned in and unable to move around. Asking for a friend.
Ha ha, no, not at all. Most events are pretty relaxed, as long as you're sensible. I try to get to a spot an hour before the first car - same again yesterday for the second run.At Rally North Wales 2 weekends ago, spectators were moved from a 'non spectator' area in Dyfi.
LukeBrown66 said:
I have never been asked to move anywhere on a forest event, but for a friend also who maybe doesnt watch that much rallying, there do seem to be events where this is not the case, and fans are penned in to one place only.
My problem with you LukeBrown66 is by your own admission you don't now go out on that many events, but spout rubbish about how bad spectating is in the UK. Do you not think your own negativity doesn't really help? Now if someone like ArnageWRC had said he had had difficulties at the last couple of events he has attended I could accept that because he was actually there. (Depending on the event I could even feed it back to the organisers.)
I am not denying at some events spectators are perhaps more controlled than at others, but again there are many reasons for this. As an example last year a special stage was made non-spectator because there were some birds of prey nesting near where the car park was to be. We also have the problem of lots of other sports wanting access to the forests, (20+ years ago mountain biking was hardly heard of.) On closed roads, we can only allow spectators on land that we get permission to use. (Not only that but we also have to be able to get spectators access that field etc) On the NWS we have a couple of fields that would provide a really good view of a stage, but as yet we can't get the neighboring farmer to grant us access)
Other than Mull and the Jim Clark Rally, closed roads are new to the UK and came about after the Jim Clark Rally Fatal accident inquiry was published. So there was no way they could take place without incorporating those recommendations. In fact instead of moaning about them, you should be thankfull that any closed roads events take place at all. You would not believe the work that goes on to put on these events, (mainly done by unpaid volunteers, who are aware that if it goes wrong they could end up doing jail time (that is not me being overdramatic, that is a fact))
LukeBrown66 said:
I am merely passing on my experiences, if you don't like that, and I get why as you clearly have a vested interest, that is not my problem, it is yours.
This is a forum, nothing I have said is made up or out of the ordinary it just differs with your view and is not rubbish as you quote, my view is based on watching rallying for 30 years, and now feeling that the fun has gone out of that, not because the sports has changed but the approach to spectators has.
You tell me what happens abroad has nothing to do with us in the UK, of course it does it's the same damn sport, they just treat spectators with a little more respect over there.
I havent read the rest of your post, I grow tired, so maybe you can just ignore me as I will you, as on other forums there are just people that wind you up, and clearly you do me, I do you, and we will never agree, so there is little point in arguing.
If I read your previous post correctly they aren't your experiences at all, but those of someone else you have taken as gospel This is a forum, nothing I have said is made up or out of the ordinary it just differs with your view and is not rubbish as you quote, my view is based on watching rallying for 30 years, and now feeling that the fun has gone out of that, not because the sports has changed but the approach to spectators has.
You tell me what happens abroad has nothing to do with us in the UK, of course it does it's the same damn sport, they just treat spectators with a little more respect over there.
I havent read the rest of your post, I grow tired, so maybe you can just ignore me as I will you, as on other forums there are just people that wind you up, and clearly you do me, I do you, and we will never agree, so there is little point in arguing.
But I think the real issue here is the bolded section above, I too have been spectating on rallies for about 30 years (and marshalling and competing and servicing for others) and I have just lost interest now. That's not the sport, the cars are faster than ever at all levels, the drivers are as good as ever and due to closed roads it's becoming more accessible than ever. I have changed!
There are always going to be bad spectating experiences and not just since the two serious accidents (to name two; Bulldog in North Wales early noughties, designated spectators areas visited were both rubbish. Got fed up really quickly and went home. Woodpecker around the same era, early 1400s good, about four cars into main field there was an 'off' and the stage delayed then cancelled. This left such a gap that we went to another stage and saw the second half of the 1400s again then decided not to wait out the 90 mins gap. Saw less than 100 cars all day and the majority lower powered 1400s - note no criticism of the drivers here, giving it their all. Didn't make me give up though)
You need to remember, as I posted previously Chunder27 posted all this before.
LukeBrown66 said:
You tell me what happens abroad has nothing to do with us in the UK, of course it does it's the same damn sport, they just treat spectators with a little more respect over there.
I don't often disagree with you, but I really do think you've got this wrong. Maybe those countries are more pro rally, and their authorities/ insurers are happy for a more relaxed attitude to spectators. The fact is, in this country, we have to abide by the MSUK guidance, and follow rules to ensure events are insured. I seem to remember after the Wyedean in 2015, the MSUK ( was then the MSA) published a letter at how the sport was under threat. And this was not long after the Jim Clark Rally fatalities......I don't think the restrictions on spectators are as bad as you make out; I do think for a short period after that Wyedean they were; I attended the Pirelli & Severn Valley, and marshals preferred if you didn't leave the designated areas, but shortly after it was 'be sensible'.
GravelBen said:
Otago this weekend anyway! 
Looks a fabulous event; great roads, and some nice cars on the event. I think Dirtfish were over there covering it. Though as said on another forum, non WRC events struggle to get interest on these forums - it doesn't happen with other motorsport disciplines where non World Championship events have no problem attracting interest. ArnageWRC said:
GravelBen said:
Otago this weekend anyway!
Looks a fabulous event; great roads, and some nice cars on the event. I think Dirtfish were over there covering it. Though as said on another forum, non WRC events struggle to get interest on these forums - it doesn't happen with other motorsport disciplines where non World Championship events have no problem attracting interest. A lot of big-name drivers have done the Otago classic over the years, Dirtfish video on that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfJaEH6dl0o
Drumroll said:
LukeBrown66 said:
You used to be diving in to ditches, now you are 100 feet away watching a car accelerate around a bale because clubs, organisers are petrified of an accident.
Yes well of course we have concerns about spectators getting injured, who wouldn't? You have to understand that as a volunteer organiser I could still be held responsible for others' stupid actions. But it's fine you carry on winging about how good it was in the old days with no thought about the consequences in a modern society. I have said before and I say again what happens in other countries regarding spectator safety is irrelevant, to what happens in the UK. Because guess what If I have to go to court over a fatal or serious accident, I won't be able to use "well they do it in France" as a defence.
Any other rubbish you care to spout on this subject?
It's no wonder rallying is struggling when you look at the costs needed just to get your car through scrutineering, in-date seats, fireproof this and that, it all costs.
Fair enough it should be allowed, maybe even encouraged but actual regulations should be to the barest minimum and allow people to take their own risks if they're happy to do so.
I'm a co-driver not a driver, one of the reasons for that is the hundreds of pounds needed just to get a license to drive a rally car, something that I'm not prepared to spend when I might not be any good at it - how many others have been put off by the same - no test was needed for decades yet now suddenly it is - smacks of ££££ to me.
The same applies for spectators, I have no interest in being herded into a pen, hundreds of meters away from the action, find the old footage from WRC Portugal in the 80s, that's what rallying should be, that lack of access and adrenaline is, in no small part why rally fans are an ever-dwindling number sadly.
I do appreciate your point as an organiser, this also should be addressed and liabliity removed in law, motorsport is dangerous, we all know that and there should be no comeback on organisers if something happens unless they were wilfully negligent.
Anyway, I'll put my fireproof coat on now and prepare to be flamed. I love this sport and it saddens and angers me in equal measure to see it being decimated the way it has been.
K50 DEL said:
....The same applies for spectators, I have no interest in being herded into a pen, hundreds of meters away from the action, find the old footage from WRC Portugal in the 80s, that's what rallying should be, that lack of access and adrenaline is, in no small part why rally fans are an ever-dwindling number sadly.
I do appreciate your point as an organiser, this also should be addressed and liabliity removed in law, motorsport is dangerous, we all know that and there should be no comeback on organisers if something happens unless they were wilfully negligent.
Anyway, I'll put my fireproof coat on now and prepare to be flamed. I love this sport and it saddens and angers me in equal measure to see it being decimated the way it has been.
Not flaming, but debating....I do appreciate your point as an organiser, this also should be addressed and liabliity removed in law, motorsport is dangerous, we all know that and there should be no comeback on organisers if something happens unless they were wilfully negligent.
Anyway, I'll put my fireproof coat on now and prepare to be flamed. I love this sport and it saddens and angers me in equal measure to see it being decimated the way it has been.
I struggle with what you say about having liability removed in law. That doesn't remove the duty of care we have for our fellow humans, no matter how stupid their behaviour. Access to the stages is still there, as long as you know where to go.
On a run through the stages there are still many spectators away from the designated areas, some well behaved and in a sensible position. However, I'd love to give you the opportunity to see the levels of stupidity, ignorance, and arrogance from the rest of the rallying spectators that are out there these days.
I have been abused by people we have told to move and then seen the Impreza sized hole in the hedge on the next run through where they would've been the victims of a very serious accident had we not taken action. There have been many others, most of whom were polite and understood the reasons why we asked them to move, memorably including a couple of chaps in a ditch drinking cans of beer and watching from under an armco barrier.
I'd be confident in saying that if we hadn't improved the approach to safety in UK rallying that we'd have seen the levels of fatal accidents that have continued in other countries.
In case you weren't aware, the FIA have been working on improving safety for a long time and are rolling out the safety delegate role to many more events and countries, so I would expect things to change in those places you mention, as the videos of Portugal in the 80s are well known as starting the demise of spectator freedom.
It can go both ways really - for sure I've seen unthinking spectators in stupid places having to be told to move by marshalls, but also some of the most unsafe positions I've ever seen have been marshalls and photographers who seem to think a high-vis vest will magically protect them.
Case in point at a recent rally, a couple of clearly inexperienced marshalls were doing their best little hitler impression abusively yelling at spectators where they could and couldn't go, trying to stop anyone crossing the road after the 000 car had been through etc. And yet they were standing right in the middle of the escape road far too close to the intersection, with 3 vehicles (including a paramedic right in the line of fire) completely blocking the escape road right behind them.
In the end said marshalls had a lengthy argument with the president of the car club running the event (who is a frequent competitor but happened to be spectating at that corner this time) before grudgingly agreeing to move their vehicles further back and open a space for an escape lane/ambulance access.
Numerous similar experiences with marshalls refusing to let people spectate in safe places on top of large banks etc and forcing them into less safe positions (on threat of cancelling the stage) because that's how they interpreted a generic safety diagram which didn't really fit the situation.
We're very reliant on volunteers for things like marshalling and rallies couldn't run without them, but there is definitely potential to train them better.
Most rallying here in NZ is on closed public roads, so if you aren't at a marshalled intersection you can pretty much spectate wherever you like - most people are sensible about it and you only see the occasional muppet.
Case in point at a recent rally, a couple of clearly inexperienced marshalls were doing their best little hitler impression abusively yelling at spectators where they could and couldn't go, trying to stop anyone crossing the road after the 000 car had been through etc. And yet they were standing right in the middle of the escape road far too close to the intersection, with 3 vehicles (including a paramedic right in the line of fire) completely blocking the escape road right behind them.
In the end said marshalls had a lengthy argument with the president of the car club running the event (who is a frequent competitor but happened to be spectating at that corner this time) before grudgingly agreeing to move their vehicles further back and open a space for an escape lane/ambulance access.
Numerous similar experiences with marshalls refusing to let people spectate in safe places on top of large banks etc and forcing them into less safe positions (on threat of cancelling the stage) because that's how they interpreted a generic safety diagram which didn't really fit the situation.
We're very reliant on volunteers for things like marshalling and rallies couldn't run without them, but there is definitely potential to train them better.
Most rallying here in NZ is on closed public roads, so if you aren't at a marshalled intersection you can pretty much spectate wherever you like - most people are sensible about it and you only see the occasional muppet.
K50 DEL said:
Drumroll said:
LukeBrown66 said:
You used to be diving in to ditches, now you are 100 feet away watching a car accelerate around a bale because clubs, organisers are petrified of an accident.
Yes well of course we have concerns about spectators getting injured, who wouldn't? You have to understand that as a volunteer organiser I could still be held responsible for others' stupid actions. But it's fine you carry on winging about how good it was in the old days with no thought about the consequences in a modern society. I have said before and I say again what happens in other countries regarding spectator safety is irrelevant, to what happens in the UK. Because guess what If I have to go to court over a fatal or serious accident, I won't be able to use "well they do it in France" as a defence.
Any other rubbish you care to spout on this subject?
It's no wonder rallying is struggling when you look at the costs needed just to get your car through scrutineering, in-date seats, fireproof this and that, it all costs.
Fair enough it should be allowed, maybe even encouraged but actual regulations should be to the barest minimum and allow people to take their own risks if they're happy to do so.
I'm a co-driver not a driver, one of the reasons for that is the hundreds of pounds needed just to get a license to drive a rally car, something that I'm not prepared to spend when I might not be any good at it - how many others have been put off by the same - no test was needed for decades yet now suddenly it is - smacks of ££££ to me.
The same applies for spectators, I have no interest in being herded into a pen, hundreds of meters away from the action, find the old footage from WRC Portugal in the 80s, that's what rallying should be, that lack of access and adrenaline is, in no small part why rally fans are an ever-dwindling number sadly.
I do appreciate your point as an organiser, this also should be addressed and liabliity removed in law, motorsport is dangerous, we all know that and there should be no comeback on organisers if something happens unless they were wilfully negligent.
Anyway, I'll put my fireproof coat on now and prepare to be flamed. I love this sport and it saddens and angers me in equal measure to see it being decimated the way it has been.
You talk about the sport being decimated again that is not my experience. Most events I have been involved with this year have had full entries. Now I am not dening that there are fewer events, but that is down to a lot of reasons.
All I can say is a very interesting few interludes.
usernames stand against you on here, as they do for people like drumroll, I have encountered his type many times (usually in temporary positions of power, marshals, cark attendants stewards etc etc) and you simply have to agree that certain people will never get on, want to get on or could ever get on, despite having a common interest.
We come at this sport from very opposite views. he cant accept mine, I cant accept his, fair enough.
I am not advocating a return to the 80's far from it, but it was just as bad after that, watch footage from France in the kit cars days and you will see extraordinary stupidity in the country where Balestre was working for goodness sake. It never ended it just became less obvious, in this country the Scottish incidents caused a huge change, rightly so, but the changes are not all good.
Rallies are hard to police, I get that, but completely obliterating the fun factor for fans and also the minor aspect of fans also being secondary marshals is not moving forward. It is surrounding the sport in a water, flame, acid, vacuum, lava proof jacket.
I have advocated for a long time now a sort of pass that you pay for, that allows fans access to events otherwise not open to spectators, these fans would attend training courses as marshals do, even pay a yearly fee, but would be able to wander about just as we once did, staying out of the way, helping crews, assisting marshals. I have been an arrow board, a stop sign, a tow truck and a warning sign. Those days are sadly gone
usernames stand against you on here, as they do for people like drumroll, I have encountered his type many times (usually in temporary positions of power, marshals, cark attendants stewards etc etc) and you simply have to agree that certain people will never get on, want to get on or could ever get on, despite having a common interest.
We come at this sport from very opposite views. he cant accept mine, I cant accept his, fair enough.
I am not advocating a return to the 80's far from it, but it was just as bad after that, watch footage from France in the kit cars days and you will see extraordinary stupidity in the country where Balestre was working for goodness sake. It never ended it just became less obvious, in this country the Scottish incidents caused a huge change, rightly so, but the changes are not all good.
Rallies are hard to police, I get that, but completely obliterating the fun factor for fans and also the minor aspect of fans also being secondary marshals is not moving forward. It is surrounding the sport in a water, flame, acid, vacuum, lava proof jacket.
I have advocated for a long time now a sort of pass that you pay for, that allows fans access to events otherwise not open to spectators, these fans would attend training courses as marshals do, even pay a yearly fee, but would be able to wander about just as we once did, staying out of the way, helping crews, assisting marshals. I have been an arrow board, a stop sign, a tow truck and a warning sign. Those days are sadly gone
Drumroll said:
Your idea is at total odds with reality, there is no way that liability could be removed in law.
No, it's simply not happening. I recall after the Jim Clark/ Wyedean, plenty of people saying they were willing to sign so the organisers weren't liable, because of the "Motorsport is dangerous, you attend at your own risk". It doesn't work like that - the organisers would still be liable. If events want insuring, they have to ensure all risks have been evaluated, and plans for spectators included.It is what it is, and we can't change it; and as I've said before, it's not quite as bad as people are making out. In most cases, just be sensible, get there early and pick a spot that won't cause the course cars to move you.
Anyway, it's the Circuit of Ireland this weekend, livestream link below; plus the Tour of Epynt tomorrow; still no spectators allowed on the rangers according to the event website....so I won't be going there then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxgzA4JDHnE&ab...
Edited by ArnageWRC on Friday 15th April 10:37
Edited by ArnageWRC on Friday 15th April 10:56
LukeBrown66 said:
All I can say is a very interesting few interludes.
usernames stand against you on here, as they do for people like drumroll, I have encountered his type many times (usually in temporary positions of power, marshals, cark attendants stewards etc etc) and you simply have to agree that certain people will never get on, want to get on or could ever get on, despite having a common interest.
We come at this sport from very opposite views. he cant accept mine, I cant accept his, fair enough.
I am not advocating a return to the 80's far from it, but it was just as bad after that, watch footage from France in the kit cars days and you will see extraordinary stupidity in the country where Balestre was working for goodness sake. It never ended it just became less obvious, in this country the Scottish incidents caused a huge change, rightly so, but the changes are not all good.
Rallies are hard to police, I get that, but completely obliterating the fun factor for fans and also the minor aspect of fans also being secondary marshals is not moving forward. It is surrounding the sport in a water, flame, acid, vacuum, lava proof jacket.
I have advocated for a long time now a sort of pass that you pay for, that allows fans access to events otherwise not open to spectators, these fans would attend training courses as marshals do, even pay a yearly fee, but would be able to wander about just as we once did, staying out of the way, helping crews, assisting marshals. I have been an arrow board, a stop sign, a tow truck and a warning sign. Those days are sadly gone
The point people keep making to you is that the fun factor is not completely obliterated as you put it above. You can't or won't give examples of first hand current experiences where this is the case.usernames stand against you on here, as they do for people like drumroll, I have encountered his type many times (usually in temporary positions of power, marshals, cark attendants stewards etc etc) and you simply have to agree that certain people will never get on, want to get on or could ever get on, despite having a common interest.
We come at this sport from very opposite views. he cant accept mine, I cant accept his, fair enough.
I am not advocating a return to the 80's far from it, but it was just as bad after that, watch footage from France in the kit cars days and you will see extraordinary stupidity in the country where Balestre was working for goodness sake. It never ended it just became less obvious, in this country the Scottish incidents caused a huge change, rightly so, but the changes are not all good.
Rallies are hard to police, I get that, but completely obliterating the fun factor for fans and also the minor aspect of fans also being secondary marshals is not moving forward. It is surrounding the sport in a water, flame, acid, vacuum, lava proof jacket.
I have advocated for a long time now a sort of pass that you pay for, that allows fans access to events otherwise not open to spectators, these fans would attend training courses as marshals do, even pay a yearly fee, but would be able to wander about just as we once did, staying out of the way, helping crews, assisting marshals. I have been an arrow board, a stop sign, a tow truck and a warning sign. Those days are sadly gone
Since you are now posting again, how about a response to my question previously asked about SV events in your region that previously had encouraged spectators but now ban them?
I have no idea what an SV event, is, but the only rallies I attend these days are the odd MSV event and the Roger Albert, the MSV events are largely sterile events suited more to drivers than fans, I have not been to any of the closed roads events, been tempted but they are all a long way from me, and after finding out the likely viewing spots I have quickly decided no thanks.
Tried to get to a few single venue events, same thing, either advised by officials not to go, did one event in a pan at I think Fulbeck, left after about 2 hours as it was literally the worst experience at a rally I have ever had. Would I go back, no, would I attempt to again, until something changes no.
Actually I lie, been to AGBO a few times, again fairly distant, but nicely run and a decent day.
Would I do more if access was better, of course. So it is a choice based on the decisions made, and the places you are asked to go. Did I sued to go a lot before, maybe 3 or 4 times a year yes, no more.
Tried to get to a few single venue events, same thing, either advised by officials not to go, did one event in a pan at I think Fulbeck, left after about 2 hours as it was literally the worst experience at a rally I have ever had. Would I go back, no, would I attempt to again, until something changes no.
Actually I lie, been to AGBO a few times, again fairly distant, but nicely run and a decent day.
Would I do more if access was better, of course. So it is a choice based on the decisions made, and the places you are asked to go. Did I sued to go a lot before, maybe 3 or 4 times a year yes, no more.
Gassing Station | Rallying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff