Bored of trackdays. What CHEAP motorsport options are there?
Discussion
bigothunter said:
That's a rich man's pursuit..
All depends on what you call rich I suppose. I race with plumbers, sparks, decorators, IT tech support, shop managers etc etc. I doubt any of us would call ourselves rich but to someone on benefits we'd probably look that way while a City trader would laugh at us for thinking we were rich.It's all about priorities. There are many things I don't spend money on that many people do which covers the bulk of my costs.
One other way to look at is that many races sell out way in advance, paddocks are packed and track days are booming. If it became far cheaper somehow then how are all those extra people who can suddenly justify doing it going to be catered for? Same with any hobby that costs a reasonable amount of money such as sailing, flying etc. There's only so much infrastructure and simple supply and demand dictates the price.
Seeing as we're almost certainly heading into a major economic downturn you may well get your wish for cheaper entry prices.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
But let’s not get started with rediculous lifing rules on seat belts and extinguishers.
Don't see anything ridiculous about that at all. You only had to walk around the paddocks prior to the change (which was phased in over a long period to spread the cost) to see how poor the systems were in many cars. Replacing a system every ten years doesn't really add to the costs of racing in any significant way and any sensible person would already have been servicing it every two years anyway.Now that harnesses can be used for ten years rather than five isn't that a good thing for reducing costs?
Edited by JoelH on Sunday 15th May 09:47
4 pages in and only one mention of Road/Targa Rallying!
Budget easy access motorsport does not get any easier than this, why are people so locked in to circuit racing or even Hillclimbs?
At typical road rally would give you 100 miles or more of competitive driving in what could amount to a pretty standard road car, for an entry fee of about £100.00.
Or if competing on open public roads at night isn’t your thing, A Targa can give you maybe 30 or 40 miles, of flat out driving, again in a fairly standard car, for just a little bit more money. About 130 to 160.
Oh and on both these types of event you get a meal thrown in for both crew members.
All you need is Club membership and an MSUK licence, usually the free one for Targa or the next leave up for Road Rallies. No helmets, no race suit, no roll cage ( though I would advise it)
Cars are easy a cheap Hot Hatch, say an MG ZR, Clio, Mini, Proton, or if you want to be pushed not pulled an MX5 or BMW compact. Just avoid anything too modern or Turbo charged.
You do need someone to sit with you though, but that is part of the fun, working as a proper team, where both make a valid contribution to success. And share the costs too.
Budget easy access motorsport does not get any easier than this, why are people so locked in to circuit racing or even Hillclimbs?
At typical road rally would give you 100 miles or more of competitive driving in what could amount to a pretty standard road car, for an entry fee of about £100.00.
Or if competing on open public roads at night isn’t your thing, A Targa can give you maybe 30 or 40 miles, of flat out driving, again in a fairly standard car, for just a little bit more money. About 130 to 160.
Oh and on both these types of event you get a meal thrown in for both crew members.
All you need is Club membership and an MSUK licence, usually the free one for Targa or the next leave up for Road Rallies. No helmets, no race suit, no roll cage ( though I would advise it)
Cars are easy a cheap Hot Hatch, say an MG ZR, Clio, Mini, Proton, or if you want to be pushed not pulled an MX5 or BMW compact. Just avoid anything too modern or Turbo charged.
You do need someone to sit with you though, but that is part of the fun, working as a proper team, where both make a valid contribution to success. And share the costs too.
andy97 said:
The biggest element of race entry fees is the circuit hire fee. On top of that the organising club have insurance, MSUK fees, timing, rescue vehicles, medical cover etc etc to pay for.
10 years ago when I was on a club committee we ran a two day meeting at Rockingham - the costs of the weekend added up to £78000. Income from entry fees was £75000, and we had good grids.
Around the new millennium, I was involved in hiring Brands Hatch Indy Circuit for a weekday on three consecutive years. Full day cost was about £14k. Marshals and safety crew with facilities were included. BOE inflation calculator indicates hire cost would be £21k today. Hire charge of Brands will be higher than most circuits due to its close proximity to London.10 years ago when I was on a club committee we ran a two day meeting at Rockingham - the costs of the weekend added up to £78000. Income from entry fees was £75000, and we had good grids.
Track day entries on proper MSV race circuits start at £169. Marshals and safety crew are provided. TDOs need to price entries competitively or their business suffers.
Some American semi-pro race series cap race entry fees to $200 when I last investigated.
Race entries are likely to be more expensive. But £169 to £420 (or £535) is one hell of jump. Is this difference justified?
Serious question
velocemitch said:
4 pages in and only one mention of Road/Targa Rallying!
Budget easy access motorsport does not get any easier than this, why are people so locked in to circuit racing or even Hillclimbs?
At typical road rally would give you 100 miles or more of competitive driving in what could amount to a pretty standard road car, for an entry fee of about £100.00.
Or if competing on open public roads at night isn’t your thing, A Targa can give you maybe 30 or 40 miles, of flat out driving, again in a fairly standard car, for just a little bit more money. About 130 to 160.
Great suggestion - I had terrific fun competing in the old style road rallies back in the 1970s. Remember the Motoring News Road Rally Championship? Budget easy access motorsport does not get any easier than this, why are people so locked in to circuit racing or even Hillclimbs?
At typical road rally would give you 100 miles or more of competitive driving in what could amount to a pretty standard road car, for an entry fee of about £100.00.
Or if competing on open public roads at night isn’t your thing, A Targa can give you maybe 30 or 40 miles, of flat out driving, again in a fairly standard car, for just a little bit more money. About 130 to 160.
bigothunter said:
velocemitch said:
4 pages in and only one mention of Road/Targa Rallying!
Budget easy access motorsport does not get any easier than this, why are people so locked in to circuit racing or even Hillclimbs?
At typical road rally would give you 100 miles or more of competitive driving in what could amount to a pretty standard road car, for an entry fee of about £100.00.
Or if competing on open public roads at night isn’t your thing, A Targa can give you maybe 30 or 40 miles, of flat out driving, again in a fairly standard car, for just a little bit more money. About 130 to 160.
Great suggestion - I had terrific fun competing in the old style road rallies back in the 1970s. Remember the Motoring News Road Rally Championship? Budget easy access motorsport does not get any easier than this, why are people so locked in to circuit racing or even Hillclimbs?
At typical road rally would give you 100 miles or more of competitive driving in what could amount to a pretty standard road car, for an entry fee of about £100.00.
Or if competing on open public roads at night isn’t your thing, A Targa can give you maybe 30 or 40 miles, of flat out driving, again in a fairly standard car, for just a little bit more money. About 130 to 160.
I regularly compete against some of the ‘names’ or sons of the names of that era though and hold massive respect.
andy97 said:
All reasonable points but:
1. Motorsport is now a minority intetest sport so getting a1000 prople to turn up to every club meeting is difficult and i think £20 for a clubbie is unrealistic. 500 people and £10 maybe. And whi takes the risk, the club or circuit?
That said, some clubs do have a reasonable spectator following already: Castle Combe and most CSCC meetings for eg. And the circuits will already factor in the small income they get already from spectators in to their financial model.
2) no idea either but agree, although many club racers have family, friends or a spanner person along too do they need tickets from somewhere
3) not all clubs do double headers - CSCC meetings are generally one day for each series and thats irrelevant to entry fee costs, although is a factor in the overall costs of club racing.
4) no idea if thats true or not. I would expect MSVR to set their own prices independently of Silverstone. And to be fair, MSVR have invested a lot of money over the years in improving each of their circuits facilities snd i know that JP runs a very tight ship.
5) several clubs do early discounts - again CSCC do.
Not sure we have saved much on an entry fee
not convinced motorsport is a minority interest. you only have to see the amount of views on YouTube of some of the influencers, I'd say 1000 people is easily possible, in fact at certain circuits 10k would be possible. CCRC used to promote their bank holiday meets at the Combe and you see easily 8-12k people there. As for who takes the risk, it should be the club, but only if they can get the reward. £20 per ticket is about right you can't do any other kind of day out for a family of 4 for less than £100, Those clubs that do do double headers I think need to think about their target market, yes some clubs do early bird discount but not all, and not much is offered.1. Motorsport is now a minority intetest sport so getting a1000 prople to turn up to every club meeting is difficult and i think £20 for a clubbie is unrealistic. 500 people and £10 maybe. And whi takes the risk, the club or circuit?
That said, some clubs do have a reasonable spectator following already: Castle Combe and most CSCC meetings for eg. And the circuits will already factor in the small income they get already from spectators in to their financial model.
2) no idea either but agree, although many club racers have family, friends or a spanner person along too do they need tickets from somewhere
3) not all clubs do double headers - CSCC meetings are generally one day for each series and thats irrelevant to entry fee costs, although is a factor in the overall costs of club racing.
4) no idea if thats true or not. I would expect MSVR to set their own prices independently of Silverstone. And to be fair, MSVR have invested a lot of money over the years in improving each of their circuits facilities snd i know that JP runs a very tight ship.
5) several clubs do early discounts - again CSCC do.
Not sure we have saved much on an entry fee
JoelH said:
Don't see anything ridiculous about that at all. You only had to walk around the paddocks prior to the change (which was phased in over a long period to spread the cost) to see how poor the systems were in many cars. Replacing a system every ten years doesn't really add to the costs of racing in any significant way and any sensible person would already have been servicing it every two years anyway.
Now that harnesses can be used for ten years rather than five isn't that a good thing for reducing costs?
it is a step forward, however if you actually did the maths on how much use a set of belts would have in 10 years, I'd calculate that for a committed club racer doing 7 meetings and 7 tests, you be looking at 145 hours of use. But for most it'd be half that and less. So you're binning off a product with maybe 60 hours of use. A little under 3 days of constant use.Now that harnesses can be used for ten years rather than five isn't that a good thing for reducing costs?
Edited by JoelH on Sunday 15th May 09:47
I recently put out a fire in my garage using my fire ex from 2005. it worked fine.
Scrutineering is not fit for purpose, it should be more about leaks and dangerous stuff than inspecting fire ex's and belts. It should also be electronic and each time a car is scrutineered a note is made of passes, fails, advisories, and can be referenced by the scrut at the next event. Thus driving standards up. Also the capital expense of competing needs to have some lee way from the scruts. they can curtail you racing on some very small and tribal points, thus flushing several hundred pounds down the drain, Better for it to be noted, electronically and asked to fix in time for the next meeting. But that's require and electronic log book. Maybe it is coming. I hope so.
To be real for a moment, I have been circuit racing for 12 years, on-and-off, and the costs only ever go up, and they do so in increments which are noticeable from one year to the next.
The costs currently are pretty painful as presumably circuits try to recover from curtailed activity in previous years.
Until 5 years ago I would turn up to every championship event and do a test day or track day pretty much every time. Right now I cannot say with confidence that I will ever do a year like that again.
I think the club I race with currently (HSCC) has done a pretty good job with entry fees but testing seems to have increased in cost by nearly 50% in a few short years, and of course external to the sport and governance the other big increases are in accommodation, fuel and consumables. I've not bought any tyres yet this year but I think I've heard they're up 15% from last year.
I think it is fair to describe it as a 'rich man's sport'. However many of the people who turn up are people who aren't rich but are willing and able for whatever insane reason to blow most of their disposable income on motorsport rather than whatever else you'd spend disposable income on.
I suppose I should acknowledge that even the notion of 'disposable income' is an idea which is alien to a fifth of the people living in the UK who are in poverty, and that number too is only going to increase in the current climate.
The costs currently are pretty painful as presumably circuits try to recover from curtailed activity in previous years.
Until 5 years ago I would turn up to every championship event and do a test day or track day pretty much every time. Right now I cannot say with confidence that I will ever do a year like that again.
I think the club I race with currently (HSCC) has done a pretty good job with entry fees but testing seems to have increased in cost by nearly 50% in a few short years, and of course external to the sport and governance the other big increases are in accommodation, fuel and consumables. I've not bought any tyres yet this year but I think I've heard they're up 15% from last year.
I think it is fair to describe it as a 'rich man's sport'. However many of the people who turn up are people who aren't rich but are willing and able for whatever insane reason to blow most of their disposable income on motorsport rather than whatever else you'd spend disposable income on.
I suppose I should acknowledge that even the notion of 'disposable income' is an idea which is alien to a fifth of the people living in the UK who are in poverty, and that number too is only going to increase in the current climate.
HustleRussell said:
I think it is fair to describe it as a 'rich man's sport'. However many of the people who turn up are people who aren't rich but are willing and able for whatever insane reason to blow most of their disposable income on motorsport rather than whatever else you'd spend disposable income on.
I suppose I should acknowledge that even the notion of 'disposable income' is an idea which is alien to a fifth of the people living in the UK who are in poverty, and that number too is only going to increase in the current climate.
Money available never ceases to amaze me. Some club racers budget £5k per meeting (helicopter, 2 professional paid mechanics, etc). At least £50k blown each season without batting an eyelid.I suppose I should acknowledge that even the notion of 'disposable income' is an idea which is alien to a fifth of the people living in the UK who are in poverty, and that number too is only going to increase in the current climate.
Grids still remain healthy but they are not for the common man...
And that is the big issue, you van race on a budget but is becoming ever harder.
Maybe that should be expected.
All motorsport is becoming very expensive, there are cheap ways in yes but the vast majority of people that would have a go would not want to do those things.
I am convinced things could be done to help this, but the big problem is tracks will go to the wall before anything is done about it.
MSUK could certainly do more to make it easier, more accessible, I wanted to sprint a few years ago and it was immensely confusing .
Why do I have to join a sodding club ffs nobody goes to them, they dont have club nights ( I asked, they just organise events at a venue, why do I have to join that? Why were there about 20 licences, Lord only knows how many different gear and equipment details needed or not needed, numbers no numbers, why dont the MSA sell timing strips ffs.
All these things with a tiny bit of imagination could make this so much easier.
Instead they just sit back, rolling in the millions they receive and dish it out sparingly.
they have a lot to do of course and theya re spread thin, but I do think they could make it all much much easier
Maybe that should be expected.
All motorsport is becoming very expensive, there are cheap ways in yes but the vast majority of people that would have a go would not want to do those things.
I am convinced things could be done to help this, but the big problem is tracks will go to the wall before anything is done about it.
MSUK could certainly do more to make it easier, more accessible, I wanted to sprint a few years ago and it was immensely confusing .
Why do I have to join a sodding club ffs nobody goes to them, they dont have club nights ( I asked, they just organise events at a venue, why do I have to join that? Why were there about 20 licences, Lord only knows how many different gear and equipment details needed or not needed, numbers no numbers, why dont the MSA sell timing strips ffs.
All these things with a tiny bit of imagination could make this so much easier.
Instead they just sit back, rolling in the millions they receive and dish it out sparingly.
they have a lot to do of course and theya re spread thin, but I do think they could make it all much much easier
HustleRussell said:
The thing is I don't think anybody in the administration or facilitation of the sport is making a killing off club racers, it is just an inherently expensive activity. Race circuits take up a lot of space and there is a lot of cost associated with running them.
Track day entries on proper MSV race circuits start at £169. Marshals and safety crew are provided. TDOs need to price entries competitively or their business suffers.Race entries are likely to be more expensive. But £169 to £420 (or £535) is one hell of a jump. Is this difference justified? Is somebody profiteering?
bigothunter said:
Track day entries on proper MSV race circuits start at £169. Marshals and safety crew are provided. TDOs need to price entries competitively or their business suffers.
Race entries are likely to be more expensive. But £169 to £420 (or £535) is one hell of a jump. Is this difference justified? Is somebody profiteering?
£169 track days on a Saturday or Sunday during the racing season? Race entries are likely to be more expensive. But £169 to £420 (or £535) is one hell of a jump. Is this difference justified? Is somebody profiteering?
bigothunter said:
andy97 said:
The biggest element of race entry fees is the circuit hire fee. On top of that the organising club have insurance, MSUK fees, timing, rescue vehicles, medical cover etc etc to pay for.
10 years ago when I was on a club committee we ran a two day meeting at Rockingham - the costs of the weekend added up to £78000. Income from entry fees was £75000, and we had good grids.
Around the new millennium, I was involved in hiring Brands Hatch Indy Circuit for a weekday on three consecutive years. Full day cost was about £14k. Marshals and safety crew with facilities were included. BOE inflation calculator indicates hire cost would be £21k today. Hire charge of Brands will be higher than most circuits due to its close proximity to London.10 years ago when I was on a club committee we ran a two day meeting at Rockingham - the costs of the weekend added up to £78000. Income from entry fees was £75000, and we had good grids.
Track day entries on proper MSV race circuits start at £169. Marshals and safety crew are provided. TDOs need to price entries competitively or their business suffers.
Some American semi-pro race series cap race entry fees to $200 when I last investigated.
Race entries are likely to be more expensive. But £169 to £420 (or £535) is one hell of jump. Is this difference justified?
Serious question
The average track day has, what 100 people taking part? The average CSCC meeting has 150 per day and in the example given at Rockingham still lost money.
bigothunter said:
HustleRussell said:
The thing is I don't think anybody in the administration or facilitation of the sport is making a killing off club racers, it is just an inherently expensive activity. Race circuits take up a lot of space and there is a lot of cost associated with running them.
Track day entries on proper MSV race circuits start at £169. Marshals and safety crew are provided. TDOs need to price entries competitively or their business suffers.Race entries are likely to be more expensive. But £169 to £420 (or £535) is one hell of a jump. Is this difference justified? Is somebody profiteering?
In my 6 years on a national race club committee I think I had a reasonably good insight into the costs of putting on race meetings and no one is profiteering. Many meetings run on a knife edge and whilst some meetings make money, they have to cover the losses of others (the Rockingham example I gave earlier). Some clubs are better run than others but most are just covering their costs with a small excess put aside for contingencies; most are not commercial companies making a profit for their shareholders/ owners, they are essentially owned by their club members.
Some clubs have stopped putting on race meetings ( Nottingham car club, Peterborough car club, the 8 clubs, even AMOC in reality) and others have made some big losses even pre-pandemic (BARC).
andy97 said:
I read an interview with Jonathan Palmer a few years ago where he said that if he was just motivated by money he would sell the circuits & build houses on them, would make a fortune and have far less hassle.
In my 6 years on a national race club committee I think I had a reasonably good insight into the costs of putting on race meetings and no one is profiteering. Many meetings run on a knife edge and whilst some meetings make money, they have to cover the losses of others (the Rockingham example I gave earlier). Some clubs are better run than others but most are just covering their costs with a small excess put aside for contingencies; most are not commercial companies making a profit for their shareholders/ owners, they are essentially owned by their club members.
Some clubs have stopped putting on race meetings ( Nottingham car club, Peterborough car club, the 8 clubs, even AMOC in reality) and others have made some big losses even pre-pandemic (BARC).
750mc make enough money to pay its race director a proper wage. like 50% tax bracket wage.In my 6 years on a national race club committee I think I had a reasonably good insight into the costs of putting on race meetings and no one is profiteering. Many meetings run on a knife edge and whilst some meetings make money, they have to cover the losses of others (the Rockingham example I gave earlier). Some clubs are better run than others but most are just covering their costs with a small excess put aside for contingencies; most are not commercial companies making a profit for their shareholders/ owners, they are essentially owned by their club members.
Some clubs have stopped putting on race meetings ( Nottingham car club, Peterborough car club, the 8 clubs, even AMOC in reality) and others have made some big losses even pre-pandemic (BARC).
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
750mc make enough money to pay its race director a proper wage. like 50% tax bracket wage.
I don’t know what 750mc’s turn over is but I’d expect it to be several million a year. I would therefore expect them to pay a commensurate wage for that responsibility, and as I have already hopefully demonstrated there is a very fine line between running race meetings in surplus and at a loss. They don’t have many full time employees and rely on volunteers for a substantial amount of the effort that goes in to running the club.Edited by andy97 on Sunday 15th May 22:54
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