Before all the venues disappear...
Discussion
Luke, it isn't a competition , not a with us or against us thing . I enjoy club racing and have possibly been watching it even longer than you have. I am far from blind to its faults - sometimes thin entries, dire commentary (not that I could do it any better) , programmes as awful as they were in 1971 and bloody safety cars and delays. But - give me a sunny day at Brands or Cadwell, full grids and a Pye or Werrell on the mic and I still love it and frankly don't care what it costs (within reason ).
BUT it is possible to enjoy club racing AND other disciplines - I watch drag racing , Autograss, hillclimbs and the odd short oval banger thing . They all fill little niches , all cost similar amounts , all vary in demographic( I suspect I may be the only Times reading retired lawyer at t'bangers ) but are complementary to each other , not mutually exclusive .
BUT it is possible to enjoy club racing AND other disciplines - I watch drag racing , Autograss, hillclimbs and the odd short oval banger thing . They all fill little niches , all cost similar amounts , all vary in demographic( I suspect I may be the only Times reading retired lawyer at t'bangers ) but are complementary to each other , not mutually exclusive .
I guess the issue with me is not that it is enjoyable, you can find something at most race meetings. All I tend to see is people taking pictures, that seems to be a huge percentage of people attending club race meetings, that is enough for them.
But I tend to be able to find more at the vast majority of race meeting types away from smaller circuit race meetings. I think it is a combination of car variety, visibility, access (at so many places you can only access parts of the tracks or even pits at times) and simple entertainment value.
I do occasionally visit club meetings but tend to find bike stuff is a bit more interesting in terms of variety and the amount of races and riders. I have tried some of the more successful modern club series and for some reason found them just a bit meh.
You can say the same of any racing but I certainly do feel that for a large number of low key race meetings charging people to get in is perhaps not the best way forward. I would advocate a pass system similar to what I would do with smaller rally venues where you pay up front, a certain amount then simply attend as you see fit.
But the issue there is the different racing clubs, venues etc all want their little bit of the tiny pie, which is why this whole situation is overly complex and why nothing ever changes.
This thread is about venues and their futures. If they do not change (or as in most cases see no reason to) I can see a few of the independent ones struggling, green pressures such as noise and fossil fuel use will eventually put them under pressure, and they need to do things to keep up with public opinion and the times. If you allowed people in for free the pressure to close a venue would be less as then, you would hopefully garner support if venues were put under pressure to close.
Going back to Combe it nearly went under right? I would imagine if that were to happen now there would be a surge of funding, crowd support and local support to keep it going, would the same happen at other venues? I do not know.
But I tend to be able to find more at the vast majority of race meeting types away from smaller circuit race meetings. I think it is a combination of car variety, visibility, access (at so many places you can only access parts of the tracks or even pits at times) and simple entertainment value.
I do occasionally visit club meetings but tend to find bike stuff is a bit more interesting in terms of variety and the amount of races and riders. I have tried some of the more successful modern club series and for some reason found them just a bit meh.
You can say the same of any racing but I certainly do feel that for a large number of low key race meetings charging people to get in is perhaps not the best way forward. I would advocate a pass system similar to what I would do with smaller rally venues where you pay up front, a certain amount then simply attend as you see fit.
But the issue there is the different racing clubs, venues etc all want their little bit of the tiny pie, which is why this whole situation is overly complex and why nothing ever changes.
This thread is about venues and their futures. If they do not change (or as in most cases see no reason to) I can see a few of the independent ones struggling, green pressures such as noise and fossil fuel use will eventually put them under pressure, and they need to do things to keep up with public opinion and the times. If you allowed people in for free the pressure to close a venue would be less as then, you would hopefully garner support if venues were put under pressure to close.
Going back to Combe it nearly went under right? I would imagine if that were to happen now there would be a surge of funding, crowd support and local support to keep it going, would the same happen at other venues? I do not know.
You have a point and a good one . We know the story - "local pub to close , community outrage, how dare they close our pub " . All very touching and if only many of the moaners ever had been near the place more than once a year it wouldn't have closed . We have the righteous outrage when a race venue is threatened , with the predictable litany against tree huggers and nimbys -but when I see the hordes of keyboard warriors on line spitting outrage , I do wonder where the hell they are when the venue is 'saved' . Because sure as hell they weren't at Croft or Mallory after their well publicised problems were smoothed over .
I have little respect or time for the views of racing 'fans' who go to BTCC once a year , and spend the rest of the year on their lazy arses watching the GP and BTCC on telly . If you genuinely enjoy motorsport , of any type - then do what I suspect most people on this thread do , in various capacities , go and see it , support the real thing
I have little respect or time for the views of racing 'fans' who go to BTCC once a year , and spend the rest of the year on their lazy arses watching the GP and BTCC on telly . If you genuinely enjoy motorsport , of any type - then do what I suspect most people on this thread do , in various capacities , go and see it , support the real thing
I think you underestimate the power of modern media. I have to admit with circuit tracing I do prefer to watch a lot of stuff on tv, simply because I can see what is going on routinely. Plus for bigegr events prices have got silly to the point that they become almost too expensive to enjoy if you are like me and place a lot of emphasis on value for money.
I like to get out at least once a weekend, but often if there is something like a MotoGP on from a track I like will stay in and watch that, or now perhaps WEC,
I also struggle in the heat so once you get over about 25 degrees I am starting to seek out shade which at some places is not easy!! So summertimes to me are very hit and miss!!
I like to get out at least once a weekend, but often if there is something like a MotoGP on from a track I like will stay in and watch that, or now perhaps WEC,
I also struggle in the heat so once you get over about 25 degrees I am starting to seek out shade which at some places is not easy!! So summertimes to me are very hit and miss!!
LukeBrown66 said:
Oh and you call me a troll, the temerity.
If you had any idea what you were talking about I could care, but you clearly do not, club racing can only dream of the crowds most short ovals get for the majority of their meetings! And did you know that the top formula's get start money, yes they get paid to race, imagine that huh.
I'm coming back to this thread after an earlier contribution to find this ^ ^If you had any idea what you were talking about I could care, but you clearly do not, club racing can only dream of the crowds most short ovals get for the majority of their meetings! And did you know that the top formula's get start money, yes they get paid to race, imagine that huh.
Luke - mate - how about you just tone it down a bit, wind it in. You come across on this thread (and some of the F1 threads TBH) as someone who is just deliberately divisive, abrasive and controversial-for-the-sake-of-it all the time.
You may be able to better express your point of view if you drop the angry little man syndrome.
I am not at all angry chap.
I simply have some thoughts about certain things and try and back them up.
People in the know come on here and dispute things as they come from certain sides of a fence, organising, competing, officiating I come from my side, a different side to them. So offer a different view to theirs.
And again, I am not angry, when somebody I do not know belittles certain forms of racing based on little or no knowledge I, like the people on here do, will stick up for it.
I simply have some thoughts about certain things and try and back them up.
People in the know come on here and dispute things as they come from certain sides of a fence, organising, competing, officiating I come from my side, a different side to them. So offer a different view to theirs.
And again, I am not angry, when somebody I do not know belittles certain forms of racing based on little or no knowledge I, like the people on here do, will stick up for it.
LukeBrown66 said:
I am not at all angry chap.
I simply have some thoughts about certain things and try and back them up. Others have different views and they will also back up their views
People in the know come on here and dispute things as they come from certain sides of a fence, organising, competing, officiating I come from my side, a different side to them. So offer a different view to theirs. Where does this "sides" come into it? You post your views others post theirs I don't see any sides. I certainly come at from a different angle, but that doesn't mean I am anti spectator. All I try to do is explain to you why some of your ideas are not as simple as you would like them to be
And again, I am not angry, when somebody I do not know belittles certain forms of racing based on little or no knowledge I, like the people on here do, will stick up for it. Where has anyone belittled "certain" forms of racing? It is you who often use language that could be said to "belittle" others sport watch a load of one make garbage droning around. I could not give the slightest toss about costs, that is the clubs problem
I simply have some thoughts about certain things and try and back them up. Others have different views and they will also back up their views
People in the know come on here and dispute things as they come from certain sides of a fence, organising, competing, officiating I come from my side, a different side to them. So offer a different view to theirs. Where does this "sides" come into it? You post your views others post theirs I don't see any sides. I certainly come at from a different angle, but that doesn't mean I am anti spectator. All I try to do is explain to you why some of your ideas are not as simple as you would like them to be
And again, I am not angry, when somebody I do not know belittles certain forms of racing based on little or no knowledge I, like the people on here do, will stick up for it. Where has anyone belittled "certain" forms of racing? It is you who often use language that could be said to "belittle" others sport watch a load of one make garbage droning around. I could not give the slightest toss about costs, that is the clubs problem
That is about the difference between watching and organising and participating, none of which I need or want to care about.
If you read what I write instead of picking apart the bits you do not like you will see I have mentioned before that for driving and taking part club racing I am sure is fun, and to some fans it might be, but to me it really is like watching wasps drone around a nest at times, not always, again things I have said before, if you care to look.
If some bloke doesn't like short ovals, fine, but making claims about nicked cars and stuff when you also watch a sport that is often taken part in by just as may crooks and villains is hardly fair. I acknowledge the image of short oval racing is bad, but circuit racing is also very much not whiter than white, despite appearances, laundry can be washed I think you know what I mean.
It's up to you really, you can continue to affirm your reasons on here or you can just agree to disagree as I am. I enjoy the discussion. But the proof is in the eating, and club racing attracts very few fans through the gates, maybe enough to make a bit of money, but it could be better, would it better if it was free? I don't know, but I do think it could be improved.
Or, exclude fans completely and make more money having more weekend track days, that is potentially more profitable surely? If you want venues to survive that is.
If you read what I write instead of picking apart the bits you do not like you will see I have mentioned before that for driving and taking part club racing I am sure is fun, and to some fans it might be, but to me it really is like watching wasps drone around a nest at times, not always, again things I have said before, if you care to look.
If some bloke doesn't like short ovals, fine, but making claims about nicked cars and stuff when you also watch a sport that is often taken part in by just as may crooks and villains is hardly fair. I acknowledge the image of short oval racing is bad, but circuit racing is also very much not whiter than white, despite appearances, laundry can be washed I think you know what I mean.
It's up to you really, you can continue to affirm your reasons on here or you can just agree to disagree as I am. I enjoy the discussion. But the proof is in the eating, and club racing attracts very few fans through the gates, maybe enough to make a bit of money, but it could be better, would it better if it was free? I don't know, but I do think it could be improved.
Or, exclude fans completely and make more money having more weekend track days, that is potentially more profitable surely? If you want venues to survive that is.
Anyway…
Silverstone was a bit disappointing on Sunday. Very small turnout of cars overall, the prototype races were 6 Pragas and a lone open top thing, 25 minutes and 50 minutes of 7 cars in the International circuit was not worth watching.
It was also freezing (expected), wet (expected) and there was very little access available around the circuit. It was limited to the inside of maggots/beckets, outside the old pit straight or two grandstands, one at Copse and the BRDC one.
I tried to walk around the outside of the circuit, the pedestrian tunnel and footpath at Bridge were padlocked shut.
The Supertouring entries were 2 Primeras which didn’t complete the single race on Saturday and were not present on Sunday, and a Vectra which I only saw on the back of a truck.
I should have known better for the time of year I suppose.
Silverstone was a bit disappointing on Sunday. Very small turnout of cars overall, the prototype races were 6 Pragas and a lone open top thing, 25 minutes and 50 minutes of 7 cars in the International circuit was not worth watching.
It was also freezing (expected), wet (expected) and there was very little access available around the circuit. It was limited to the inside of maggots/beckets, outside the old pit straight or two grandstands, one at Copse and the BRDC one.
I tried to walk around the outside of the circuit, the pedestrian tunnel and footpath at Bridge were padlocked shut.
The Supertouring entries were 2 Primeras which didn’t complete the single race on Saturday and were not present on Sunday, and a Vectra which I only saw on the back of a truck.
I should have known better for the time of year I suppose.
coppice said:
You should have gone to the Pomeroy and CSCC the next day . An amazing amount of spectators - considering - and free for the Pom . Obviously , it being Silverstone , strangers to customer care , the main cafe was closed on Sunday .
Or the BRSCC Meeting 18/19th - 350+ entries over the whole weekend Robmarriott said:
Anyway…
Silverstone was a bit disappointing on Sunday. Very small turnout of cars overall, the prototype races were 6 Pragas and a lone open top thing, 25 minutes and 50 minutes of 7 cars in the International circuit was not worth watching.
This is where I agree with Luke, 7 not particularly enthralling cars going round for 50 minutes is not good entertainment for almost anyone. However what also has to be considered is how much they will have paid the organising club to have their race(s) Because the club will not receive any gate money there is little (if any) incentive for them to refuse several thousands of pounds for them to have their race. Silverstone was a bit disappointing on Sunday. Very small turnout of cars overall, the prototype races were 6 Pragas and a lone open top thing, 25 minutes and 50 minutes of 7 cars in the International circuit was not worth watching.
covboy said:
coppice said:
You should have gone to the Pomeroy and CSCC the next day . An amazing amount of spectators - considering - and free for the Pom . Obviously , it being Silverstone , strangers to customer care , the main cafe was closed on Sunday .
Or the BRSCC Meeting 18/19th - 350+ entries over the whole weekend 350 entries is an excellent turnout though, I bet it was a great meeting.
Robmarriott said:
Anyway…
Silverstone was a bit disappointing on Sunday. Very small turnout of cars overall, the prototype races were 6 Pragas and a lone open top thing, 25 minutes and 50 minutes of 7 cars in the International circuit was not worth watching.
It was also freezing (expected), wet (expected) and there was very little access available around the circuit. It was limited to the inside of maggots/beckets, outside the old pit straight or two grandstands, one at Copse and the BRDC one.
I tried to walk around the outside of the circuit, the pedestrian tunnel and footpath at Bridge were padlocked shut.
The Supertouring entries were 2 Primeras which didn’t complete the single race on Saturday and were not present on Sunday, and a Vectra which I only saw on the back of a truck.
I should have known better for the time of year I suppose.
This sounds like a AMOC meeting I attended a few years ago at Brands! If I can't find an entry list for meetings nowadays I don't attend having been burn't a few times. As i've already said the circuits are being greedy to make the spectator entrance cost what they are for the tripe Rob was subjected to. Silverstone was a bit disappointing on Sunday. Very small turnout of cars overall, the prototype races were 6 Pragas and a lone open top thing, 25 minutes and 50 minutes of 7 cars in the International circuit was not worth watching.
It was also freezing (expected), wet (expected) and there was very little access available around the circuit. It was limited to the inside of maggots/beckets, outside the old pit straight or two grandstands, one at Copse and the BRDC one.
I tried to walk around the outside of the circuit, the pedestrian tunnel and footpath at Bridge were padlocked shut.
The Supertouring entries were 2 Primeras which didn’t complete the single race on Saturday and were not present on Sunday, and a Vectra which I only saw on the back of a truck.
I should have known better for the time of year I suppose.
Brands this weekend doesn't look like value for money at £15 in advance or £17 on the gate. Details are here; https://equipeclassicracing.com/news-2/
I am no apologist for Silverstone , which after 70 years still has the appearance of a hastily built industrial estate , but I do appreciate the BRDC stand being opened for public use at events like the Pomeroy and Walter Hayes . But the difference in customer care standards with the MSV circuits is stark ,
The point remains, for small club meetings I see little point in charging spectators. I very much doubt it makes any money, and for the small amount that do attend I would suggest mostly amateur snappers, surely some sort of season ticket would be easier, pre-season deals etc, I know MSV do this not sure of other places.
Then, if crowds start to pick up, you gradually start to charge, low amounts first then see what happens when you increase, some will stay, it is about the profit/loss benefit you get from either. If you charge nothing you have no facilities, one loo block say, no food outlets, or just machines meaning no-one needs to be there. You will always be able to get stuff in the paddock as that will be open, nothing needs to be open around the venue. I can manage perfectly well at rallies for a day without needing something to eat every hour or a peee every hour, and even then nature is your friend, not really applicable at circuits but you get the point, paddock will always be busy and open.
All types of racing have the problem of series not knowing they are dead usually because someone involved is the Chairman etc, some series should just die, or be killed, I know it means revenue loss and more old race cars, but if people are really keen they will transfer to something else or sell and move up/across. Grids with 6 cars are pathetic, and although I am not keen on massive grids of drony similar type road cars at least it offers a little more of a spectacle
Then, if crowds start to pick up, you gradually start to charge, low amounts first then see what happens when you increase, some will stay, it is about the profit/loss benefit you get from either. If you charge nothing you have no facilities, one loo block say, no food outlets, or just machines meaning no-one needs to be there. You will always be able to get stuff in the paddock as that will be open, nothing needs to be open around the venue. I can manage perfectly well at rallies for a day without needing something to eat every hour or a peee every hour, and even then nature is your friend, not really applicable at circuits but you get the point, paddock will always be busy and open.
All types of racing have the problem of series not knowing they are dead usually because someone involved is the Chairman etc, some series should just die, or be killed, I know it means revenue loss and more old race cars, but if people are really keen they will transfer to something else or sell and move up/across. Grids with 6 cars are pathetic, and although I am not keen on massive grids of drony similar type road cars at least it offers a little more of a spectacle
On the subject of free entry, one of the perks that competitors gets is a number of free tickets, so they'd lose that value from their entry fee if everyone gets in for nowt (plus the slight increase in price to cover the lack of ticket sales).
I do think that circuits are perhaps missing a trick by not having one meeting a year with free entry to encourage the fair weather punter - perhaps at the start of the season, make the Saturday of a weekend meeting free and sell tickets for the Sunday.
(every time I read this thread I think I need to work out my plans for this summer, perhaps visit some venues I've not been before or haven't visited for a while)
I do think that circuits are perhaps missing a trick by not having one meeting a year with free entry to encourage the fair weather punter - perhaps at the start of the season, make the Saturday of a weekend meeting free and sell tickets for the Sunday.
(every time I read this thread I think I need to work out my plans for this summer, perhaps visit some venues I've not been before or haven't visited for a while)
Truckosaurus said:
On the subject of free entry, one of the perks that competitors gets is a number of free tickets, so they'd lose that value from their entry fee if everyone gets in for nowt (plus the slight increase in price to cover the lack of ticket sales).
I do think that circuits are perhaps missing a trick by not having one meeting a year with free entry to encourage the fair weather punter - perhaps at the start of the season, make the Saturday of a weekend meeting free and sell tickets for the Sunday.
(every time I read this thread I think I need to work out my plans for this summer, perhaps visit some venues I've not been before or haven't visited for a while)
The BARC Midland Sprint at Cadwell this Saturday is free to attend. I’m working or I might have made the effort.I do think that circuits are perhaps missing a trick by not having one meeting a year with free entry to encourage the fair weather punter - perhaps at the start of the season, make the Saturday of a weekend meeting free and sell tickets for the Sunday.
(every time I read this thread I think I need to work out my plans for this summer, perhaps visit some venues I've not been before or haven't visited for a while)
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