Your favourite 'cheats' in motorsport

Your favourite 'cheats' in motorsport

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Esprit

6,364 posts

229 months

Friday 11th July 2008
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While not a "cheat" so to speak, there was BAR's front wheel torque-transfer device, which was essentially a reverse-acting limited-slip differential in the front wheels (although non-driven).

The rules banned LSDs but not explicitly, stating that no device could be fitted that would transfer torque between a faster spinning wheel and a slower spinning wheel (describing the effect of a LSD torque-biasing when one wheel had lost traction under acceleration). This device worked in reverse when under braking, hence transferring torque from a slower spinning wheel to a faster spinning wheel. When you'd locked the front (usually inside) wheel, the locked wheel would transfer a braking torque across to the unlocked wheel. Hence the braking torque was lessened on the locked wheel and raised on the unlocked wheel. Basically this theoretically enabled braking to be done later and harder into corners without locking a single wheel outright.

The device was run in testing and practice but was banned after questions were raised about its legality. Its benefit was deemed to be borderline negligible in any case in that any braking benefit was said to have been offset by extra windage from the front "driveshaft" that transmitted the torque to each wheel from the centrally mounted biasing device.

Edited by Esprit on Friday 11th July 04:55

zac510

5,546 posts

152 months

Friday 11th July 2008
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That would be a handy thing on a road car.. Probably too expensive for too small gain though.

Jon C

3,214 posts

193 months

Saturday 12th July 2008
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Silent1 said:
Has there been any other 'creative' rule interpretations in motorsport?
I overheard a good one several years ago in the pits at Santa Pod.
At the time, there was a class called 'Production', designed as an entry level class with very few mechanical modifications allowed.

One of the cars was being protested by another racer (who shall remain nameless) and the point of dispute was the inlet manifold;

Racer 1: "That manifold isnt standard, the rule book says 'OEM inlet and exhaust manifolds must be retained'"

Race Director: "That is correct, and that is clearly not the OEM manifold."

Racer 2: "Thats right."

30 seconds silence, then bemused Race Director says "so can you explain this transgression in the rules?"

Racer 2: "The inlet manifold has been retained, and so there is no protest"

Race Director and Racer 1: "!!!!????!!!"

Racer 2: "The manifold has been retained. It has been retained by the bloke I sold it to"

MrKipling43

Original Poster:

5,788 posts

162 months

Saturday 12th July 2008
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zac510 said:
That would be a handy thing on a road car.. Probably too expensive for too small gain though.
Not really a great deal of point either: ABS makes the system pretty much redundant on a road car anyway and you'd have to be driving like a bit of loon to lock one wheel turning into a corner!wink

Having said that, it would be quite cool on something like a mental Caterham.

Edited by MrKipling43 on Saturday 12th July 18:45

Silent1

19,719 posts

181 months

Saturday 12th July 2008
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Jon C said:
Silent1 said:
Has there been any other 'creative' rule interpretations in motorsport?
I overheard a good one several years ago in the pits at Santa Pod.
At the time, there was a class called 'Production', designed as an entry level class with very few mechanical modifications allowed.

One of the cars was being protested by another racer (who shall remain nameless) and the point of dispute was the inlet manifold;

Racer 1: "That manifold isnt standard, the rule book says 'OEM inlet and exhaust manifolds must be retained'"

Race Director: "That is correct, and that is clearly not the OEM manifold."

Racer 2: "Thats right."

30 seconds silence, then bemused Race Director says "so can you explain this transgression in the rules?"

Racer 2: "The inlet manifold has been retained, and so there is no protest"

Race Director and Racer 1: "!!!!????!!!"

Racer 2: "The manifold has been retained. It has been retained by the bloke I sold it to"
hehe That's brilliant!

Chassis 33

6,193 posts

228 months

Friday 1st August 2008
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Here's another thing to get you thinking. My friend who I'm lodging with is (amongst other things) a mechanic for open wheel formula team. Apparently there's rumours going around the paddock that another team are magnetising their brakes. We are both engineers with vivid imaginations so we started discussing a) how you would go about it, and b) why bother anyway. Now I'm still figuring out how you would practically go about that, but we're guessing that if both the disc and the pads have the same magnetic polarity they would repel hence the release quicker once the pedal is released (reducing hysteresis in the system) and offer an advantage due to the increased sensitivity of the brakes (ie you can back out quicker once you get right to the limit) and potentially reduce what little drag is offered by the pad at rest.

Has anyone heard anything like this ever or is it a red herring?

Regards
Iain

mchammer89

3,127 posts

159 months

Friday 1st August 2008
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Chassis 33 said:
Here's another thing to get you thinking. My friend who I'm lodging with is (amongst other things) a mechanic for open wheel formula team. Apparently there's rumours going around the paddock that another team are magnetising their brakes. We are both engineers with vivid imaginations so we started discussing a) how you would go about it, and b) why bother anyway. Now I'm still figuring out how you would practically go about that, but we're guessing that if both the disc and the pads have the same magnetic polarity they would repel hence the release quicker once the pedal is released (reducing hysteresis in the system) and offer an advantage due to the increased sensitivity of the brakes (ie you can back out quicker once you get right to the limit) and potentially reduce what little drag is offered by the pad at rest.

Has anyone heard anything like this ever or is it a red herring?

Regards
Iain
When you spin a metal disc through a electromagnetic field you induce a current through the magnet which takes energy from the disc slowing it down. It's early in the morning and it's the summer after a-level physics, so i'll leave you with this wiki which should be accurate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake

Jon C

3,214 posts

193 months

Friday 1st August 2008
quotequote all
Chassis 33 said:
Here's another thing to get you thinking. My friend who I'm lodging with is (amongst other things) a mechanic for open wheel formula team. Apparently there's rumours going around the paddock that another team are magnetising their brakes. We are both engineers with vivid imaginations so we started discussing a) how you would go about it, and b) why bother anyway. Now I'm still figuring out how you would practically go about that, but we're guessing that if both the disc and the pads have the same magnetic polarity they would repel hence the release quicker once the pedal is released (reducing hysteresis in the system) and offer an advantage due to the increased sensitivity of the brakes (ie you can back out quicker once you get right to the limit) and potentially reduce what little drag is offered by the pad at rest.

Has anyone heard anything like this ever or is it a red herring?

Regards
Iain
wouldn't the discs polarise along the longest axis, ie one extremity of the disc would be N and the other edge S? Would this mean that as the disc rotated the pads would be alternatly attracted and repelled?

Chassis 33

6,193 posts

228 months

Friday 1st August 2008
quotequote all
Magnetics isn't my thing so I'll take your word on that one, I ignorantly assumed you could get a disc to polarise in whatever axis you chose. There's no electromagnets involved actually on the car as all components are meant to be "control" parts
Regards
Iain

Jon C

3,214 posts

193 months

Friday 1st August 2008
quotequote all
I speak with no authority other than an ancient o level, lol.

I wonder if it could be a bit like Don Garlits and the head gaskets?

skeggysteve

5,464 posts

163 months

Friday 1st August 2008
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Chassis 33 said:
Stuff about brakes and magnets
I thought that F1 used carbon discs and carbon pads confused

Didn't think carbon was a metal.

sniff petrol

13,053 posts

158 months

Friday 1st August 2008
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skeggysteve said:
Chassis 33 said:
Stuff about brakes and magnets
I thought that F1 used carbon discs and carbon pads confused

Didn't think carbon was a metal.
He never said F1, just an open wheel formula with control parts, so is that FF, F3, F Renault, GP2, A1 GP...

ZeeTacoe

2,893 posts

168 months

Friday 1st August 2008
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mchammer89 said:
When you spin a metal disc through a electromagnetic field you induce a current through the magnet which takes energy from the disc slowing it down. It's early in the morning and it's the summer after a-level physics, so i'll leave you with this wiki which should be accurate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake
you don't even need an electromagnet. a bog standard magnet and spinning disc will do fine.

sleep envy

62,258 posts

195 months

Friday 1st August 2008
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BigBen said:
Alfa touring cars rear wing that was allegedly standard fit on certain models of the car (156 ? ) if you ordered said model the wing came in the boot with bolts and a drill guide. Some rival team's engineers found it was impossible to fit anyway.
155 silverstone

the wing and splitter were fitted on the car, the parts to extend the splitter and raise the spoiler were left in the boot, rivets and all

proven when the wife of another team manager popped into an alfa dealership having bought a 155 hehe

skeggysteve

5,464 posts

163 months

Friday 1st August 2008
quotequote all
sniff petrol said:
skeggysteve said:
Chassis 33 said:
Stuff about brakes and magnets
I thought that F1 used carbon discs and carbon pads confused

Didn't think carbon was a metal.
He never said F1, just an open wheel formula with control parts, so is that FF, F3, F Renault, GP2, A1 GP...
Oops - sorry!


mchammer89

3,127 posts

159 months

Saturday 2nd August 2008
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ZeeTacoe said:
mchammer89 said:
When you spin a metal disc through a electromagnetic field you induce a current through the magnet which takes energy from the disc slowing it down. It's early in the morning and it's the summer after a-level physics, so i'll leave you with this wiki which should be accurate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake
you don't even need an electromagnet. a bog standard magnet and spinning disc will do fine.
True, like I said, it was very early in the morning biggrin

johnny be bad

6 posts

47 months

Tuesday 17th November 2015
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clicdallara said:
Has to be Jonathan Lewis of the Comtec Formula Ford team! Jonathan spent over £100,000 on the Comtec D08 which was based upon the unsuccessful Spirit WL07. He employed experienced ex-Formula Ford Champion Westley Barber and experienced Formula Ford crew. The car had a shakey start at Oulton Park when the rear suspension collapsed. By Knockhill the car was challenging the Jamun Mygales; however at Croft the car was found to be running ceramic wheel bearings which were clearly illegal.

The car ran legal at Brands Hatch and Westley recorded two 2nd places. However the self destruct button had been pushed and Jonathan was sacked from his own team. Brands Hatch was the last time that Westley drove the Comtec and by Spa the team had left the series.
I can't possibly think why I choose to quote the above post but it seems a leopard never changes its spots https://www.facebook.com/Sneterton-Cheat-Shop-1042...

johnny be bad

6 posts

47 months

Tuesday 12th January 2016
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johnny be bad said:
clicdallara said:
Has to be Jonathan Lewis of the Comtec Formula Ford team! Jonathan spent over £100,000 on the Comtec D08 which was based upon the unsuccessful Spirit WL07. He employed experienced ex-Formula Ford Champion Westley Barber and experienced Formula Ford crew. The car had a shakey start at Oulton Park when the rear suspension collapsed. By Knockhill the car was challenging the Jamun Mygales; however at Croft the car was found to be running ceramic wheel bearings which were clearly illegal.

The car ran legal at Brands Hatch and Westley recorded two 2nd places. However the self destruct button had been pushed and Jonathan was sacked from his own team. Brands Hatch was the last time that Westley drove the Comtec and by Spa the team had left the series.
I can't possibly think why I choose to quote the above post but it seems a leopard never changes its spots https://www.facebook.com/Sneterton-Cheat-Shop-1042...
Yep a leopard never changes it's spots https://www.msauk.org/assets/casenoj201531-3.pdf Lewis prepared both these cars, both were miles quicker than the rest of the field, both disqualified because they were sealed up with bent diffs in and we'll you can read for yourself

tapkaJohnD

1,291 posts

150 months

Wednesday 13th January 2016
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Eddy current brakes are a well-established technology for rail transport, either in disc form, like a brake disc, or linear, which is also used on roller coasters.
The disc needs to be conducting but non-ferrous so that it only exerts a force when the magnet and disc are moving relatively.

So a carbon disc would work fine, and what is more there would be no 'pad wear', no dust and the discs would not wear out.
Kinetic energy is converted to heat, but electrically not by friction, and very efficiently.
But as this technology has not transferred to cars, I suspect that the weight of the magnet required would be the critical factor.
Not a problem on a train, and on a roller coaster, the magnets are static.

John

tapkaJohnD

1,291 posts

150 months

Wednesday 13th January 2016
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In a similar thread, but not this one, I've mentioned a friend who converted his Hot Hatch's rear suspension from torsion bar - not easy to adjust - to coil-overs. The rules said 'original suspension system to be retained' so he did retain the torsion bar - as two fine wires that were twisted by suspension movement. The springs were just 'assistors'.

Problem is, many series' regs now say that anything not permitted is forbidden, which rather spoils the fun.
John