M3 Speed Camera
Discussion
I was at junction 12 of the M25 travelling on to the M3 southbound when I believe I may have triggered the average speed camera. The reason I say believe is because it happened yesterday so no letter in the post yet and no indication of the camera going off at the time. Whilst my dash cam clearly shows me breaking the speed limit and I hold my hands up and admit I did it I would also argue that the signage at this junction is a bit unclear leading to my confusion over the speed limit.
Looking back over the dashcam footage the images show the first sign showing the speed restriction of 50mph on the approach to the corner with another smaller repeater sign on the way round the corner. Carrying on past this repeater sign there were no other speed limit signs indicating the lower speed limit and therefore upon seeing the blank gantry signs, the blue motorway signs and end of merging lanes indicating I was on the smart motorway I wrongly assumed the speed limit was back up to 70mph as I had joined a new road and was clear of the junction. It wasn’t until I saw the NSL signs further down the motorway that I realised I had been speeding.
I notice that the government’s guidance on smart motorways ( https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...) states ‘If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.’ Therefore could it be argued that as these were blank the NSL could be assumed to be in force as there were no further 50mph signs saying otherwise?
Also the traffic signs manual ( https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...) states ’where a speed limit other than the national limit is in force, direction 11(2) requires that repeater signs are provided at regular intervals along the road.’ Looking at the table below this paragraph it shows that the maximum distance between repeater signs is 700m for a 50mph road. Having reviewed the dashcam footage it is clear that there are no further speed limit signs between the repeater on the corner and the NSL sign further down the motorway.
Also would section 85 subsection 4 of the RTA which states ‘a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs’ apply to this situation as the speed limit wasn’t indicated on the new road and it could be argued that the failure to display 50 mph either by using the gantry signs or regular signs means that there was a failure to provide ‘adequate guidance to drivers of motor vehicles as to whether any, and if so what, limit of speed is to be observed’ (RTA S85 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...). Also the blank gantry signs could cause the driver to assume that the preceding restriction has ended.
So based on this and the governments own guidance I would argue that the fine is unenforceable by virtue of the fact that there was inadequate signage indicating the continuation of the 50mph limit on to the new road after the junction and blank gantry signs.
What are peoples thoughts on this and in particular this junction or other smart motorway junctions?
Looking back over the dashcam footage the images show the first sign showing the speed restriction of 50mph on the approach to the corner with another smaller repeater sign on the way round the corner. Carrying on past this repeater sign there were no other speed limit signs indicating the lower speed limit and therefore upon seeing the blank gantry signs, the blue motorway signs and end of merging lanes indicating I was on the smart motorway I wrongly assumed the speed limit was back up to 70mph as I had joined a new road and was clear of the junction. It wasn’t until I saw the NSL signs further down the motorway that I realised I had been speeding.
I notice that the government’s guidance on smart motorways ( https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...) states ‘If no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.’ Therefore could it be argued that as these were blank the NSL could be assumed to be in force as there were no further 50mph signs saying otherwise?
Also the traffic signs manual ( https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...) states ’where a speed limit other than the national limit is in force, direction 11(2) requires that repeater signs are provided at regular intervals along the road.’ Looking at the table below this paragraph it shows that the maximum distance between repeater signs is 700m for a 50mph road. Having reviewed the dashcam footage it is clear that there are no further speed limit signs between the repeater on the corner and the NSL sign further down the motorway.
Also would section 85 subsection 4 of the RTA which states ‘a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs’ apply to this situation as the speed limit wasn’t indicated on the new road and it could be argued that the failure to display 50 mph either by using the gantry signs or regular signs means that there was a failure to provide ‘adequate guidance to drivers of motor vehicles as to whether any, and if so what, limit of speed is to be observed’ (RTA S85 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/secti...). Also the blank gantry signs could cause the driver to assume that the preceding restriction has ended.
So based on this and the governments own guidance I would argue that the fine is unenforceable by virtue of the fact that there was inadequate signage indicating the continuation of the 50mph limit on to the new road after the junction and blank gantry signs.
What are peoples thoughts on this and in particular this junction or other smart motorway junctions?
I think I know the exact place you mean, and if so, I would agree that it's not at all clear what speed you should be doing. If it's where I think it is then the cameras are very hard to see small yellow boxes mounted on the nearside of the gantries.
However, I don't think those cameras are average speed cameras, I'm pretty sure they are just regular GATSO's. I say this because I've seen a bellend in an M3 get comprehensively flashed by them when clearly wondering why everyone else was doing 50 and weaving through us all to storm off into the distance. AFAIK average speed cameras don't flash.
However, I don't think those cameras are average speed cameras, I'm pretty sure they are just regular GATSO's. I say this because I've seen a bellend in an M3 get comprehensively flashed by them when clearly wondering why everyone else was doing 50 and weaving through us all to storm off into the distance. AFAIK average speed cameras don't flash.
The exact location was going southbound on the M3 having left the M25 anticlockwise at junction 12 ( https://goo.gl/maps/pSP1rvRAwwN2). There was a set of yellow cameras on the corner and the second set were just north of the NSL sign.
Edited by Bobbynonuts on Friday 27th April 22:25
And IIRC there is the NSL limit signed about 0.5mile away on the M3 when all four lanes get back together after the junction merge tiger tails
Worth checking on google view
I think the A316/M3 to J3 is all camera checked av speed .( both ways ) even when there are no posted reductions . It really is good practice to stick to the posted limits now from Hogarth Roundabout to J3 at least ( not sure if active southbound past there)
Worth checking on google view
I think the A316/M3 to J3 is all camera checked av speed .( both ways ) even when there are no posted reductions . It really is good practice to stick to the posted limits now from Hogarth Roundabout to J3 at least ( not sure if active southbound past there)
Edited by silverfoxcc on Saturday 28th April 00:36
I would argue that having left the junction and the fact that my lane had finished merging with the M3 I am now on a new road and signs should of been shown to indicate that the 50mph limit continued on the new road. It could be argued that under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 the HA failed in their duty to provide adequate guidance to the driver that a lower speed limit was in force.
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