Why are roadworks so badly managed?

[Flumpo]

Zarco said:

Yeah, the public sector is such a beacon of efficiency after all

It’s not at all, but seems as most of the complaints here about roadworks due to private sector contractors then maybe we need a rethink?

[irocfan]

Gojira said:

Flumpo said:

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Whilst that’s all very interesting and undoubtedly true, it simply highlights what is possibly one of the root causes of many issues with highways engineering....
It’s always someone else’s fault and the travelling public don’t understand anyway.
Public perception is based on experience, so as an industry there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are carried out.

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

Surely that’s the problem? Stop outsourcing everything and do the work themselves. Cutting out the middlemen, shareholders, white collar staff, profit and tax and run it themselves.

It’s very rarely cheaper to outsource this way and you have less control. The real problem is the public sector is having to work on short term cost cutting which in the long term costs more.

Oh, I completely agree with you, but CK and the Spinach-eater make it sound so easy to run a Highways unit that there ought to be a good market opportunity out there for them

and how do you propose that all the machinery/equipment is paid for?

[Gojira]

irocfan said:

Gojira said:

Flumpo said:

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Whilst that’s all very interesting and undoubtedly true, it simply highlights what is possibly one of the root causes of many issues with highways engineering....
It’s always someone else’s fault and the travelling public don’t understand anyway.
Public perception is based on experience, so as an industry there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are carried out.

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

Surely that’s the problem? Stop outsourcing everything and do the work themselves. Cutting out the middlemen, shareholders, white collar staff, profit and tax and run it themselves.

It’s very rarely cheaper to outsource this way and you have less control. The real problem is the public sector is having to work on short term cost cutting which in the long term costs more.

Oh, I completely agree with you, but CK and the Spinach-eater make it sound so easy to run a Highways unit that there ought to be a good market opportunity out there for them

and how do you propose that all the machinery/equipment is paid for?

If it is such a good business proposition, surely the banks would fall over themselved to lend the money

[anonymous-user]

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Gojira said:

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

You’re funny.

So, you don't have any answers, you just like whinging....

Are you a politician in real life?

Ok, here’s a thought for you and it’s not rocket science.
24hr working.
Plenty of other service industries manage it, in fact they have to in order to survive.
Coming through the M4 works tonight......all in darkness, not a soul in sight.
Why is that? Highways a bit special and can’t work past 4pm?
Please don’t trot out the “waiting for the next phase” cliche.

[Gojira]

Crossflow Kid said:

Ok, here’s a thought for you and it’s not rocket science.
24hr working.
Plenty of other service industries manage it, in fact they have to in order to survive.
Coming through the M4 works tonight......all in darkness, not a soul in sight.
Why is that? Highways a bit special and can’t work past 4pm?
Please don’t trot out the “waiting for the next phase” cliche.

Why not....

A lot of building materials need time to set, settle, etc before the next stage of the work can take place, if the job is to be done properly. That isn't rocket science, either.

Do you really think that you have come up with something that thousands of highway engineers have missed over the decades?

[anonymous-user]

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ok, here’s a thought for you and it’s not rocket science.
24hr working.
Plenty of other service industries manage it, in fact they have to in order to survive.
Coming through the M4 works tonight......all in darkness, not a soul in sight.
Why is that? Highways a bit special and can’t work past 4pm?
Please don’t trot out the “waiting for the next phase” cliche.

Why not....

A lot of building materials need time to set, settle, etc before the next stage of the work can take place, if the job is to be done properly. That isn't rocket science, either.

Do you really think that you have come up with something that thousands of highway engineers have missed over the decades?

Ball cocks.
They aren’t building/setting/laying anything yet and are still in the phase of stripping out the old/obsolete roadside clutter ready to ruin the M4 in to a so-called Smart motorway.
Seriously, why can’t that go on round the clock?
And I doubt thousands of highways engineers have missed it. I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.
And if that’s so misrepresentative, how come the industry is so universally loathed and widely panned for being a picture of laziness and inefficiency?

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

[warch]

There is an inherent inefficiency in the way a lot of large scale public sector works are carried out in this country. No one really minds spunking time, money and resources up the wall because there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so.

[Gojira]

Crossflow Kid said:

Ball cocks.
They aren’t building/setting/laying anything yet and are still in the phase of stripping out the old/obsolete roadside clutter ready to ruin the M4 in to a so-called Smart motorway.
Seriously, why can’t that go on round the clock?
And I doubt thousands of highways engineers have missed it. I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.
And if that’s so misrepresentative, how come the industry is so universally loathed and widely panned for being a picture of laziness and inefficiency?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

If you are starting from "All the contractors are crooks", we're not going to get anywhere, are we?

I presume your field, whatever it is, is an absolute paragon of virtue, where everything is for the benefit of the customers not the shareholders?

[Zarco]

Crossflow Kid said:

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ok, here’s a thought for you and it’s not rocket science.
24hr working.
Plenty of other service industries manage it, in fact they have to in order to survive.
Coming through the M4 works tonight......all in darkness, not a soul in sight.
Why is that? Highways a bit special and can’t work past 4pm?
Please don’t trot out the “waiting for the next phase” cliche.

Why not....

A lot of building materials need time to set, settle, etc before the next stage of the work can take place, if the job is to be done properly. That isn't rocket science, either.

Do you really think that you have come up with something that thousands of highway engineers have missed over the decades?

Ball cocks.
They aren’t building/setting/laying anything yet and are still in the phase of stripping out the old/obsolete roadside clutter ready to ruin the M4 in to a so-called Smart motorway.
Seriously, why can’t that go on round the clock?
And I doubt thousands of highways engineers have missed it. I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.
And if that’s so misrepresentative, how come the industry is so universally loathed and widely panned for being a picture of laziness and inefficiency?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

All the contractors are in cahoots with each other to fix prices so they can do things at their leisure? Is that it?

It's a competitive market with slim margins. If it was so much easier to go faster than the rest, they would.

24hr working:

- Night shift labour twice the hourly rate
- Night time concrete deliveries - guess what, more expensive

Who pays for that extra cost? Who sets the budgets?

[anonymous-user]

Night time working = normal hourly rate and is considered part of the job.
This is what I mean about a shift in attitude. Other industries with far less impact have to do it.
Why is highway work so special?

PS Came through the M4 works again this morning.
The concrete they didn’t lay at 7pm last still hasn’t set. That’s why there’s no one there yet, right?

Anyhow, since you’re all getting a bit punchy I guess we’ll leave it there and I’ll just have to accept that:
Concrete takes a very long time to set.
Deliveries come from Mars and take months.
And if all else fails “It a safety thing” that I wouldn’t understand.

Stay safe in the welfare unit fellas.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 7th November 06:11

[popeyewhite]

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ball cocks.
They aren’t building/setting/laying anything yet and are still in the phase of stripping out the old/obsolete roadside clutter ready to ruin the M4 in to a so-called Smart motorway.
Seriously, why can’t that go on round the clock?
And I doubt thousands of highways engineers have missed it. I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.
And if that’s so misrepresentative, how come the industry is so universally loathed and widely panned for being a picture of laziness and inefficiency?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

If you are starting from "All the contractors are crooks", we're not going to get anywhere, are we?

I presume your field, whatever it is, is an absolute paragon of virtue, where everything is for the benefit of the customers not the shareholders?

The problem is also that when lazy arsed contractors stand around looking into a hole whilst fumes from stationary traffic at unnecessary lights pollutes the air needlessly it's highly visible and very obvious the contractors couldn't give a monkey's. It's an insult to common sense and the people who sit seething while the yellowjackets eat their lunch in their cab, smoke fags, give the disfunctioning lights a kick etc... . The issue is the end user (us) has no ability to complain about a job being done poorly or obvious contractor time wasting.

[Gojira]

popeyewhite said:

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ball cocks.
They aren’t building/setting/laying anything yet and are still in the phase of stripping out the old/obsolete roadside clutter ready to ruin the M4 in to a so-called Smart motorway.
Seriously, why can’t that go on round the clock?
And I doubt thousands of highways engineers have missed it. I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.
And if that’s so misrepresentative, how come the industry is so universally loathed and widely panned for being a picture of laziness and inefficiency?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

If you are starting from "All the contractors are crooks", we're not going to get anywhere, are we?

I presume your field, whatever it is, is an absolute paragon of virtue, where everything is for the benefit of the customers not the shareholders?

The problem is also that when lazy arsed contractors stand around looking into a hole whilst fumes from stationary traffic at unnecessary lights pollutes the air needlessly it's highly visible and very obvious the contractors couldn't give a monkey's. It's an insult to common sense and the people who sit seething while the yellowjackets eat their lunch in their cab, smoke fags, give the disfunctioning lights a kick etc... . The issue is the end user (us) has no ability to complain about a job being done poorly or obvious contractor time wasting.

If all you are doing is ranting, it isn't worth answering you, is it....

[popeyewhite]

Gojira said:

popeyewhite said:

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ball cocks.
They aren’t building/setting/laying anything yet and are still in the phase of stripping out the old/obsolete roadside clutter ready to ruin the M4 in to a so-called Smart motorway.
Seriously, why can’t that go on round the clock?
And I doubt thousands of highways engineers have missed it. I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.
And if that’s so misrepresentative, how come the industry is so universally loathed and widely panned for being a picture of laziness and inefficiency?

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

If you are starting from "All the contractors are crooks", we're not going to get anywhere, are we?

I presume your field, whatever it is, is an absolute paragon of virtue, where everything is for the benefit of the customers not the shareholders?

The problem is also that when lazy arsed contractors stand around looking into a hole whilst fumes from stationary traffic at unnecessary lights pollutes the air needlessly it's highly visible and very obvious the contractors couldn't give a monkey's. It's an insult to common sense and the people who sit seething while the yellowjackets eat their lunch in their cab, smoke fags, give the disfunctioning lights a kick etc... . The issue is the end user (us) has no ability to complain about a job being done poorly or obvious contractor time wasting.

If all you are doing is ranting, it isn't worth answering you, is it....

And yet you have done... .

[irfan1712]

Crossflow Kid said:

I suspect it’s an industry wide culture of being able to hold the travelling public hostage whilst the works are dawdled along at a pace convenient to the contractors and their bank balance.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Wednesday 6th November 21:54

Can you explain what makes you think, that if the contractor is there longer, they get more money, or its more cost effective for them? If they win the tender at say, £10million based on a programme of 24 months, they aren't going to get a bonus for dragging the work out to 30 months.. they'd suffer some horrendous LD charges instead. Its in the contractors interest to beat the programme and get out sooner than anticipated, i.e, £10million for 22months work instead. Clueless lol.

[Riley Blue]

warch said:

There is an inherent inefficiency in the way a lot of large scale public sector works are carried out in this country. No one really minds spunking time, money and resources up the wall because there is nothing stopping anyone from doing so.

Poor contract management and monitoring is at the root of much of the discontent with council services.

A couple of recent local examples:

In June we were notified by the county council that nearby roads were to be top dressed with preparatory work commencing in a couple of weeks time. This entailed inspecting and making repairs to man holes and drains. Unfortunately some were totally ignored and those that were 'fixed' were done very badly. I mentioned it to the highways department when calling about another matter but nothing was done and sure enough, most of those ironworks are in the same state as before; drivers continue to swerve round the worst ones just have they have for years previously.

More recently road signs appeared giving dates of road repairs (to the roads that had not long before been top dressed) and stating no parking between certain dates. As residents we dutifully parked elsewhere and cones appeared along the road. Two weeks later the cones disappeared, no work having been done.

Edited by Riley Blue on Thursday 7th November 14:30

[Justin Case]

All the health and safety excuses are a complete red herring. The idea is that you do all the planning beforehand ie risk assessments, drawing up safe systems of work etc so as to ensure that the site is as safe as possible. If lane / road closures are deemed necessary then fair enough, but that is no reason why the work should go on month after month and that is what is annoying us here. In fact with a safer working environment the work should be finished more quickly so why isn't it?

[Zarco]

Crossflow Kid said:

Night time working = normal hourly rate and is considered part of the job.
This is what I mean about a shift in attitude. Other industries with far less impact have to do it.
Why is highway work so special?

PS Came through the M4 works again this morning.
The concrete they didn’t lay at 7pm last still hasn’t set. That’s why there’s no one there yet, right?

Anyhow, since you’re all getting a bit punchy I guess we’ll leave it there and I’ll just have to accept that:
Concrete takes a very long time to set.
Deliveries come from Mars and take months.
And if all else fails “It a safety thing” that I wouldn’t understand.

Stay safe in the welfare unit fellas.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Thursday 7th November 06:11

While we are talking about the solar system, back on planet Earth people expect to be paid more to work all night.

[warch]

Stuff like resurfacing is usually done quite quickly. Anything involving drainage or services can take ages because complicated. Motorway roadworks usually involve replacement of the old armco central reservation with concrete barriers and improvements to surface drainage as well as upgrading the lighting system, matrix boards, cameras and changes to the markings. You could have loads of different processes going on by lots of different agencies. As I said nothing goes ahead without a permit to work or method statements being in order, mistakes in construction or groundworks can be fatal at worst or very expensive to put right.

[V10leptoquark]

Justin Case said:

All the health and safety excuses are a complete red herring. The idea is that you do all the planning beforehand ie risk assessments, drawing up safe systems of work etc so as to ensure that the site is as safe as possible. If lane / road closures are deemed necessary then fair enough, but that is no reason why the work should go on month after month and that is what is annoying us here. In fact with a safer working environment the work should be finished more quickly so why isn't it?

That is of course based up on the assumption that an individual (often the case) or a group can foresee every risk and account for it in their assessment.
As you say once the risk assessment is signed off, the project continues on that basis.
If however unforeseen events occur or obscure risks are identified during the course of works, then what often can occur is works are mandatory halted on H&S grounds.

[bartelbe]

Had to revisit this thread because of the ineptness of our council. The incompetents have been trying to get away with surface dressing roads and these repairs last all of 5 minutes. Alas when they actually trying to relay a road, it takes them an astonishing amount of time.

Weeks to do a few car lengths worth on a roundabout, causing huge traffic problems in the rush. Their project management skills are a joke.