Why are roadworks so badly managed?

[anonymous-user]

On a lighter note does anyone else remember when Highways England trialled these on the M3 during the upgrade work?

The follow-on Twitter feed asking for feedback from drivers saw them removed within a week following a deluge of responses along the line of “Tell your dad to get a fking move on then” .

[Haltamer]

For everyone that thinks a dictatorship, or army of slaves is needed to complete major works:
https://youtu.be/btOE0rcKDC0

The Netherlands is neither; And they manage! - Road tax may be high, but I'd happily pay £500PA for Dutch road standards across the country.

[fiju]

I can't believe how many miles of road they need to cone off when work is happening in a certain area. I work on the client side in a specialised area of civil engineering and its crazy to think just how slowly work happens on our motorways. Who the hell is managing these people? We use some of the countries biggest civil engineering contractors, and there's absolutely no way we would let them get away with foreseeable delays to the programme.

Contracts are awarded mainly using NEC3 rules, and we have our own business practices in place which monitor all aspects of the job, from health and safety, to quality etc.
As the client, we also have our own site agents, project managers, quantity surveyors, design assurance etc. If the contractor screws up, it's down to them to fix it. If they're behind on their works, money is deducted from the total cost. Our h&s rules are very stringent, the contractor has to have their men trained up suitably. There's no way you can use that excuse for delays to the programme. The cost of all this is factored in at the time of quoting anyway. Some projects take days, some take years, but they all generally come in on time.

[Mr Tidy]

Crossflow Kid said:

And then it overan by nine months while Thales pissed about with “testing and calibration” despite Higjways England insisting the project was finished.

It wasn't 9 months late, more like 18 months from the first completion date that they posted!

I've been going from M3 J4 to M25 J12 to M25 J10 onto the A3 Northbound for the last 8 years every week, so I can't forget it.

But even though the M3 is now finished for the last year or so I've given up going that way, because even at 2.30 in the afternoon the queue to join the M25 starts on the slip-road off the M3 because they've got a 40 limit on the M25.

Then after crawling to J11 it's NSL, so what was the reduced limit for?

I don't bother with the M3 any more, just head directly for the A3. And thankfully most of that doesn't have cameras (yet)!

[anonymous-user]

fiju said:

Some projects take days, some take years, but they all generally come in on time.

They may come in on time as per the contractors projection, the issue is whether the time scale suggested is reasonable.
“Replace a cat’s eye? Yurr mate. Six mumfs”

[anonymous-user]

Haltamer said:

For everyone that thinks a dictatorship, or army of slaves is needed to complete major works:
https://youtu.be/btOE0rcKDC0

The Netherlands is neither; And they manage! - Road tax may be high, but I'd happily pay £500PA for Dutch road standards across the country.

Jesus Christ. The work-shy oafs at Balfour Beatty need to be shown that every morning.
The finished road surface didn’t show any sign that it had ever been disturbed, and the workforce had what looked like some pretty dreadful weather to contend with.

[Venturist]

Crossflow Kid said:

Jesus Christ. The work-shy oafs at Balfour Beatty need to be shown that every morning.
The finished road surface didn’t show any sign that it had ever been disturbed, and the workforce had what looked like some pretty dreadful weather to contend with.

All joking aside there must be a reason why this sort of thing isn’t possible in the UK. Is it legislation? Budget? I’m sure the constructors would like nothing more than the positive PR of being able to turn around works that quickly.

[Zarco]

Venturist said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Jesus Christ. The work-shy oafs at Balfour Beatty need to be shown that every morning.
The finished road surface didn’t show any sign that it had ever been disturbed, and the workforce had what looked like some pretty dreadful weather to contend with.

All joking aside there must be a reason why this sort of thing isn’t possible in the UK. Is it legislation? Budget? I’m sure the constructors would like nothing more than the positive PR of being able to turn around works that quickly.

It is possible and it is done.

That is quite different to widening miles of motorway as I am sure people appreciate (or not?).

[anonymous-user]

Venturist said:

I’m sure the constructors would like nothing more than the positive PR of being able to turn around works that quickly.

Im not sure PR is a concern.
Roads will always need work, local govt has no bite in spurring things along so contractors know they can dawdle along at their own sweet pace safe in the knowledge that once one drawn out project has finished there’ll be another mug in a highways department somewhere else ready to sign a contract.

[anonymous-user]

Zarco said:

That is quite different to widening miles of motorway as I am sure people appreciate (or not?).

The infrastructure being worked may differ but look at the work ethic.
In the video there are multiple assets working all aspects absolutely non-stop until the job is complete, regardless of what appears to be a minor monsoon at one point.
So, on to the M4.....
The bit I use most often, from the M25 to the Heston where the works end has had a 50mph limit laid down, Lane 1 is now coned off for no apparent reason (no ground work has been done, no plant or machinery pre-positioned, no material stockpiled for later....literally nothing has been done with the ring fenced area) and the white lines on the M25 feed have been erased.
Not a bad effort for two months I think you’ll agree?

[Zarco]

Crossflow Kid said:

The infrastructure being worked may differ but look at the work ethic.
In the video there are multiple assets working all aspects absolutely non-stop until the job is complete, regardless of what appears to be a minor monsoon at one point.
So, on to the M4.....
The bit I use most often, from the M25 to the Heston where the works end has had a 50mph limit laid down, Lane 1 is now coned off for no apparent reason (no ground work has been done, no plant or machinery pre-positioned, no material stockpiled for later....literally nothing has been done with the ring fenced area) and the white lines on the M25 feed have been erased.
Not a bad effort for two months I think you’ll agree?

Back to my original point, it is likely more economic to close miles on end of motorway at once and do the work (very!) gradually, rather than close a short section and go hell for leather to completion, and then move on to the next section.

[anonymous-user]

Economic for whom?

[Zarco]

Crossflow Kid said:

Economic for whom?

Those carrying out the work and thus those paying the bill.

[anonymous-user]

Those ultimately paying the bill are also those inconvenienced by the apparent lack of any urgency in completing a project.
As I hinted earlier, it requires a different work ethic where “best” doesn’t equal “expensive” and affordable doesn’t mean “crap”.
There is more than just the financial cost but that needs a totally different attitude from contractors where they actually want to get the job done and to an impressively high standard of which they can be proud.
The current situation just seems to be a clusterfk of contracts awarded by default to slack companies with no genuine urgency or pride in anything they do and where convenience to the travelling public is at the absolute bottom of the list.

[Zarco]

I take your point, but it's the Highways Agency that control and allocate the funding.

[Who me ?]

I haven't read all, but one thing I've noticed in my 50+ years on the roads ,and through a lot of road works is how contractors can conveniently claim to have finished a job ahead of target ( and thereby claim a bonus for early completion) and a week or so later find an excuse to close a section ( usually it's one lane of a newly completed DC ) to do some snagging work .

[V10leptoquark]

Crossflow Kid said:

V10leptoquark said:

A lot of the works can only take place when traffic volumes are low enough to be deemed 'safe levels'.
Otherwise congestion builds up and you get people doing wierd stuff in frustration.

So the majority of works now only takes place during night time hours and even then it can be quite restrictive on which hours can be worked due to some areas being that busy that it means traffic volumes don't get to 'safe levels' until the small hours of the morning.

So people get frustrated because little progress appears to be being made resulting in congestion, and the answer is to do even less?
Grrrrrreat.

Well not exactly, what I mentioned in my reply was that when congestion builds up and traffic is slowed and can grind to a halt causing delays, you then get drivers doing things like queue jumping by ignoring closed lanes and driving 40mph+ past plant and workforce.
So its not about drivers being frustrated by "little progress", its about the delayed journey, which results if road works take place during hours that lead to congestion.

And with the claim culture I think I remember a case where a car driver who ignored a lane closure because the cones had been intentionally taken out by a frustrated HGV driver, crashed down in to a road excavation, writing off his vehicle and breaking his leg (I think), decided to take the contractor company to court for 'x' thousands of pounds for not ensuring the cones were in the correct place when he passed them (or lack of them in this case).

My solution would be to reduce the ludicrous claim culture, which would go a long way to simplify and streamline health and safety regulations, which would then go a long way to reduce costs and speed up operations.
Reducing the claim culture in my view is done via judges reevaluating what is reasonable on a claim. For example, just look at how long it took the 'establishment' to change their opinion on whiplash injuries, and the crazy number of people taking the system for a ride.
When everyone is out to play the system for financial gain, it ends up costing everyone in both money, time and regulations.

[anonymous-user]

V10leptoquark said:

So its not about drivers being frustrated by "little progress", its about the delayed journey, which results if road works take place during hours that lead to congestion.

I disagree. Although a delayed journey is in itself frustrating, it’s the repeated delays that go on day after day for years that frustrate people.
The M4 near Heathrow......As mentioned it’s already it’s down to 50mph for two months now and nothing has been started.
That is where the frustration comes from. People will tolerate inconvenience where it’s plainly for a reason and everything is being done to minimise the disruption, but with the vast majority of roadworks there just isn’t anything being done for weeks on end.

[V10leptoquark]

Crossflow Kid said:

V10leptoquark said:

So its not about drivers being frustrated by "little progress", its about the delayed journey, which results if road works take place during hours that lead to congestion.

I disagree. Although a delayed journey is in itself frustrating, it’s the repeated delays that go on day after day for years that frustrate people.
The M4 near Heathrow......As mentioned it’s already it’s down to 50mph for two months now and nothing has been started.
That is where the frustration comes from. People will tolerate inconvenience where it’s plainly for a reason and everything is being done to minimise the disruption, but with the vast majority of roadworks there just isn’t anything being done for weeks on end.

Not sure if I follow your disagreement, because you still point to the delay being the issue causing frustration.
But I do fully agree with a wider point you are making about the length of time some road works take up and the apparent lack of work that may be seen at certain periods of the day, or even for entire weeks if the project is programmed in a way that means work activities operate only on certain areas and leave other areas vacant.

I would encourage everyone to keep filing the complaints in to the relevant road authority.
Highways England for major roads such as motorways and primary trunk A roads..... and then most often the local council for other A roads and B roads etc.
When freedom of information requests are done on these in the future it will show up the level of dissatisfaction of road users - and hopefully this will put pressure on councillors/MPs to do something about it.

But the problem we are facing in our modern world of hysterical climate fears is that their likely reaction these days for future planning is to promote autonomous electric milk float use to take away the pressures of current traffic activity and behaviours; and also likely to start promoting alternatives to private transport in favour of our equally dire public transport system.

[irocfan]

Crossflow Kid said:

Compare that to say the rail industry. Small armies descend on the line and go at it hammer and tongs until the job’s done with huge financial penalties if things are finished late.

<ahem> crossrail <ahem>


WRT roads etc you don't even need to look to dictatorships (ME countries or China) look at Japan or the Netherlands who seem to get stuff done PDQ.

Every time we visit our daughter we're subjected to the PITA that is the M6 J onwards - started over 2 years ago due to finish (IIRC) in 2022. W.T.actual.F.????

Edited by irocfan on Monday 14th October 14:40