Why are roadworks so badly managed?

[B_Tank88]

Why did I see a high viz guy sitting on a chair next to the road closed sign on some junction roadworks. He was literally just sitting there looking straight at the traffic turning around because of the road closure. What was his purpose?

Why on the motorway the other day there was 3 miles of cones laid out and I did not see a single worker except for one guy in a high viz with his hands in his pockets staring into the distance.

I swear couldn't make it up, I don't even find it frustrating anymore, I find it funny.

[Allyc85]

I was in the south of France a couple weeks ago, where the roads are smooth, there was very little roadside litter and where there were roadworks there was actually people working on them. Also you get a countdown of how long you are going to be stopped at the traffic lights, which is useful.

On my return to England I rejoined the M5, where there was mile after mile of cones and a 50 limit with nobody working. It also seems in Devon at least that companies dig the roads up, then doing nothing about it for a couple weeks. How hard can it be to plan works to be done in an orderly fashion?

[V10leptoquark]

Yep the difference between here in the UK and the continent is stark.

I think it primarily comes down to the interpretation of liability laws.
Here in the UK it seems to be a case that the corporation/industry is always at fault no matter how idiotic the motorist/individual chooses to behave.
Whereas on the continent I think there is much more of an onus on personal choice of common sense and paying the price for one's actions.

The resultant difference in approach to roadworks is obvious.
For example. just look at the difference in the amount of cones used between the UK and say Germany or France.
In the UK it is seen as a failing to not give the motorist sufficient visual indication of a closed lane. Knowing that many motorist simply ignore signs these days.
Whereas in Germany for example, the number of signs used and the number of 'cones' (they use bollards), used is about half. Whereby if the motorist drives in to a lane closure, damages their vehicle or causes an injury, they are fully to blame.

It would be interesting to view injury stats per mile/km of road works between the UK and Germany or France to see which system is 'better'.

[anonymous-user]

Allyc85 said:

On my return to England I rejoined the M5, where there was mile after mile of cones and a 50 limit with nobody working.

It’s a safety thing.
We wouldn’t understand, apparently

[irocfan]

Crossflow Kid said:

Allyc85 said:

On my return to England I rejoined the M5, where there was mile after mile of cones and a 50 limit with nobody working.

It’s a safety thing.
We wouldn’t understand, apparently

Ahhhh but we're better than jonny foreigner


eta: For the avoidance of doubt the above is a j.o.k.e.

Edited by irocfan on Wednesday 30th October 18:04

[Pericoloso]

They also seem to leave behind some of their stuff after clearing up,a sign or the big sign holder tripod ,sometimes the sand filled sack

to stop a sign blowing down.

[anonymous-user]

Pericoloso said:

They also seem to leave behind some of their stuff after clearing up,a sign or the big sign holder tripod ,sometimes the sand filled sack

to stop a sign blowing down.

Different contractor innit?

[bartelbe]

The cheapest thing for a contractor to do is close off large sections of the road and the work on them at their leisure. Rather than smaller sections that will cause less disruption. The contractor doesn't care about delaying you, that doesn't cost them anything.

[irfan1712]

Vlad the Imp said:

Reading this thread is like listening to someone claiming to be an expert software developer because they once used a PC. Just because you once drove on a road doesn't mean you understand the first thing abut building or maintaining them.
.

I think people are confusing the difference between the contractor (or subcontractor, whichever) and the contractor providing and maintaining the traffic management, i.e, cones etc. To install and maintain TM provisions requires specific accreditations which usually civils contractors wouldn't have, hence the reliance on a TM provider.

Before anywork on the highway starts that requires any sort of traffic management, a traffic management plan (cones/signs/diversions etc) is designed, and issued to the respective local authority to approve, or object, or require amendments. The TM plan is then accepted, the relative section 'xx' is applied for so that road space is booked for that contractor for a set period, and that's it. If the public have a problem with roadworks then typically its the local authority who authorised them, and the extent that they are there. The contractor obviously gets the backlash on social media and forums because its their bodies that are present on site - the public wouldn't have a dicky bow about the programme or what conditions the contractor is working too. They just see a bloke in high vis not doing much and go straight to twitter.

The exception to the rule are utilities, who can turn up tomorrow and dig a hole in the road outside your house with traffic lights and cones and everything else if its deemed as emergency works. Conveniently '' its always emergency works'' which saves them a lot of paper work, TM designs and approvals, applying for road space, etc.

The civils contractor doing the work on the road will be working under an agreed programme between them and the client as part of the contract. If the programme over runs, the contractor COULD face Liquidated damages set at a daily or weekly rate within as per their contract with the client. If however, the delay is due to the client, or the client requests many additional works which pushes the programme out, then there are no charges.. all depends on the contract.

Typically as mentioned above, the road space is approved by the local authority on the condition that x amount of meters is granted for TM at anyone time. So of course, the contractor will use all of this allowance. If they don't, they need to demobilise, remobilise for each section. Yes this costs money, but it also costs time. And if it costs time, it will defo effect the programme of works.. something the contractor, client or public cant afford.

As for men standing about, that's a typical view for many in the UK. There are certainly 'lazy' workers on the road just like any other industry, but again there can be logical, or a valid reason why. The only difference is you see a bloke stood there on his phone for thousands of people to see when they drive past, but the same office worker who sits on his phone for 9 hours would go pretty much unnoticed. However the standing around may due to construction sequencing, again the programme, waiting for kit, and the most common one for standing around is waiting for materials..i.e concrete and so forth. If concrete cant be delivered, they cant lay kerbs, which means they cant start something else like starting the road construction till kerbs are installed. just a hypothetical example but you get the picture.

With regards to big uk motorway projects, I feel the 'stand' still people see for months on end is due to funding. The local Gov or authority would have 'X' to spend at tender, and award the contract as such to the designated contractor. The contractor starts the contract, runs into unforeseen (or forseen) additional works, which then effects the clients budget. The client then has to return to whoever is funding the scheme to basically ask for more money. This can take weeks, months. Its more costly for everyone to demobilise a big set up and then return once the funding is in place, so sometimes, its best to remain on site which the client pays for until said additional funding is granted.. or not.

Biggest problem in the UK construction industry when the work is within the public eye, is that the contractor and client suddenly work with 100,000 project managers

and yes I speak from the Civils/Highway Contractors side of the fence.. Happy to answer any other questions.

Edited by irfan1712 on Tuesday 5th November 20:51

Edited by irfan1712 on Tuesday 5th November 20:54

[anonymous-user]

Whilst that’s all very interesting and undoubtedly true, it simply highlights what is possibly one of the root causes of many issues with highways engineering....
It’s always someone else’s fault and the travelling public don’t understand anyway.
Public perception is based on experience, so as an industry there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are carried out.

[Gojira]

Crossflow Kid said:

Whilst that’s all very interesting and undoubtedly true, it simply highlights what is possibly one of the root causes of many issues with highways engineering....
It’s always someone else’s fault and the travelling public don’t understand anyway.
Public perception is based on experience, so as an industry there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are carried out.

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

[anonymous-user]

Gojira said:

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

You’re funny.

[Gojira]

Crossflow Kid said:

Gojira said:

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

You’re funny.

So, you don't have any answers, you just like whinging....

Are you a politician in real life?

[Zarco]

Crossflow Kid said:

Gojira said:

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

You’re funny.

Good point though isn't it.

[popeyewhite]

Zarco said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Gojira said:

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

You’re funny.

Good point though isn't it.

No, it's a childish thing to say. The idea with debate is to put an argument forward to support or counter a statement. If you've all run out of counter arguments perhaps CK has a valid point?

[warch]

I have also worked in groundworks (as a subcontractor). Lots of standing around occurs because workpeople are not allowed to just start when they feel like it, they have to make sure that the paperwork is in order, i.e. current risk assessment method statement and permit to dig. Where multiple agencies are at work this can cause delays.

I recently had a job delayed because the contractor could not start because the council that the contractor was working for was potentially in breach of its consent to begin works. There was no actual issue but had there been, then the council would have been legally responsible.

My issue with roadworks specifically is broken lights (usually stuck on red). I had to run a set this morning. Not a problem if you know what's gone wrong but a real sod if you are stuck behind someone who is afraid to risk what we are conditioned to regard as committing an offence.

[Gojira]

popeyewhite said:

Zarco said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Gojira said:

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

You’re funny.

Good point though isn't it.

No, it's a childish thing to say. The idea with debate is to put an argument forward to support or counter a statement. If you've all run out of counter arguments perhaps CK has a valid point?

So, do you have any useful suggestions?

You certainly seem to think you are an expert, maybe you could prove it!

But my original question to CK stands, and I'll ask you too -

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

[Flumpo]

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Whilst that’s all very interesting and undoubtedly true, it simply highlights what is possibly one of the root causes of many issues with highways engineering....
It’s always someone else’s fault and the travelling public don’t understand anyway.
Public perception is based on experience, so as an industry there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are carried out.

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

Surely that’s the problem? Stop outsourcing everything and do the work themselves. Cutting out the middlemen, shareholders, white collar staff, profit and tax and run it themselves.

It’s very rarely cheaper to outsource this way and you have less control. The real problem is the public sector is having to work on short term cost cutting which in the long term costs more.

[Gojira]

Flumpo said:

Gojira said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Whilst that’s all very interesting and undoubtedly true, it simply highlights what is possibly one of the root causes of many issues with highways engineering....
It’s always someone else’s fault and the travelling public don’t understand anyway.
Public perception is based on experience, so as an industry there is something fundamentally wrong with the way things are carried out.

If it is all so obvious and easy, why don't you set up your own Highways Maintenance company?

Surely if you can do it quicker and cheaper, the Highways Agency and local Council highways departments would be trampling each other to death in the rush...

Surely that’s the problem? Stop outsourcing everything and do the work themselves. Cutting out the middlemen, shareholders, white collar staff, profit and tax and run it themselves.

It’s very rarely cheaper to outsource this way and you have less control. The real problem is the public sector is having to work on short term cost cutting which in the long term costs more.

Oh, I completely agree with you, but CK and the Spinach-eater make it sound so easy to run a Highways unit that there ought to be a good market opportunity out there for them

[Zarco]

Yeah, the public sector is such a beacon of efficiency after all