Discussion
nevsrevs said:
I think you better read up on tubines then, as im running a turbo that produces alot more charge than the standard gt25,
I not saying any wheel dyno is bang on, but its not far off as its been on 3 all within 5hp.
plus although head and cams are standard, nothing else is lol.
Your turbo can blow all it likes, but an engine will only "eat" a certain volume of air. If you increase the density by increasing the manifold pressure, the air mass goes up, but only roughly in proportion to density. You're saying you've nearly doubled the power but with only 40% more air (at best)...I not saying any wheel dyno is bang on, but its not far off as its been on 3 all within 5hp.
plus although head and cams are standard, nothing else is lol.
You should perhaps read up on engines, since that's what's actually making the power in the end.
nevsrevs said:
AER said:
If you've not changed the cams or head and are only running 1.3 bar boost, then you'll be lucky to be breaking a real 300hp.
If you say not, then pray tell me how the engine manages to pump so much more air than standard? From memory the standard car is not too shy of 1 bar at peak power. 1.3/0.9*212 = 306, so that's the best you can expect. Reality would be a lot lower.
I think your dyno is telling porkies...
I think you better read up on tubines then, as im running a turbo that produces alot more charge than the standard gt25,If you say not, then pray tell me how the engine manages to pump so much more air than standard? From memory the standard car is not too shy of 1 bar at peak power. 1.3/0.9*212 = 306, so that's the best you can expect. Reality would be a lot lower.
I think your dyno is telling porkies...
I not saying any wheel dyno is bang on, but its not far off as its been on 3 all within 5hp.
plus although head and cams are standard, nothing else is lol.
Max_Torque said:
LOL^^^^ I'm not sure if NevsRevs realises exactly who he is talking too here.............
Yea there is always an expert postman on here who knows better.I saw a bog standard NK1 RS run 242bhp so were ford wrong or the dyno? I know who my money is on.
Dyno is a bit like dick measuring contest it gives you a measurement but doesnt tell you it will perform its not a quarter mile run or a lap time. You have roughly doubled the horse power of a what the car was setup to cope with so what makes you think you will see double the benefit on the track. At least in an evo or skyline you have 4wd but FRS is fwd. I can't think of a 400bhp fwd factory car?!? Probably cause it doesnt work!
Edited by jbsportstech on Tuesday 10th September 13:34
I dont care who im talking too? if you dont believe what im showing you thats fine, but im afraid its true, shall I start showing you lap times and drag times too? I have been building zetec turbo motors for ten years from 200 to 550 hp.
and the fwd thing is getting boring now, and yes if you look there are 400hp fwd production cars.
and the fwd thing is getting boring now, and yes if you look there are 400hp fwd production cars.
nevsrevs said:
I dont care who im talking too? if you dont believe what im showing you thats fine, but im afraid its true, shall I start showing you lap times and drag times too? I have been building zetec turbo motors for ten years from 200 to 550 hp.
and the fwd thing is getting boring now, and yes if you look there are 400hp fwd production cars.
Why would you want a 400bhp fwd the weight goes to the wrong axle when accelerating.and the fwd thing is getting boring now, and yes if you look there are 400hp fwd production cars.
If we work on the basis that the 401bhp dyno is as wrong as the 242 on a std car, thats 15% out. That means that your 401bhp dyno could well be 60bhp keen, so actually on an engine dyno you could have 340bhp would be alot more likely on engine dyno.
If you dont believe a development engineer with multi million pounds ford project under their belt thats up to you but halfords professional tool set and garage is not going to get more reliable and credable results in my mind.
why would you not want 400hp fwd?
or should I say 340hp fwd.
apart from getting of the start grid it does not hinder my lap times at all.
if we all followed the same old school ideas then we would never evolve,
look at the leaps and bounds that have been made with fwd technology, revo knuckles, and diffs.
any how my point I was making was that it is possible to have more than 300,400,500,600, bhp out of these engines, I could pull out 10s of dyno sheets and engine dyno plots to prove this fact.
I dont want to hyjack this poor chaps thread, good luck to you.
or should I say 340hp fwd.
apart from getting of the start grid it does not hinder my lap times at all.
if we all followed the same old school ideas then we would never evolve,
look at the leaps and bounds that have been made with fwd technology, revo knuckles, and diffs.
any how my point I was making was that it is possible to have more than 300,400,500,600, bhp out of these engines, I could pull out 10s of dyno sheets and engine dyno plots to prove this fact.
I dont want to hyjack this poor chaps thread, good luck to you.
nevsrevs said:
why would you not want 400hp fwd?
or should I say 340hp fwd.
apart from getting of the start grid it does not hinder my lap times at all.
if we all followed the same old school ideas then we would never evolve,
look at the leaps and bounds that have been made with fwd technology, revo knuckles, and diffs.
any how my point I was making was that it is possible to have more than 300,400,500,600, bhp out of these engines, I could pull out 10s of dyno sheets and engine dyno plots to prove this fact.
I dont want to hyjack this poor chaps thread, good luck to you.
Don't get me wrong I love mk1 rs and st170 even tho many slate it for not having enough power it was a nice place to be and chassis was very capable. They are a lot more nimble than later focuses and arguably more cutting edge in there design, the mk2 other than rs and st was pretty boring in terms of design. Yes trick diffs and revo nuckle suspension has moved things forward but 300bho is the most I really want out of fwd. the primary reason these cars are front wheel drive is keeping cost low and for safety under steer is easier to cope with the oversteer.or should I say 340hp fwd.
apart from getting of the start grid it does not hinder my lap times at all.
if we all followed the same old school ideas then we would never evolve,
look at the leaps and bounds that have been made with fwd technology, revo knuckles, and diffs.
any how my point I was making was that it is possible to have more than 300,400,500,600, bhp out of these engines, I could pull out 10s of dyno sheets and engine dyno plots to prove this fact.
I dont want to hyjack this poor chaps thread, good luck to you.
nevsrevs said:
I dont care who im talking too? if you dont believe what im showing you thats fine, but im afraid its true, shall I start showing you lap times and drag times too? I have been building zetec turbo motors for ten years from 200 to 550 hp.
I'm afraid it's not true just because it's printed on a piece of paper. I've spent enough time in my life measuring engine power (amongst other things) to know that, even on an engine dyno, it's not a walk in the park to get even a repeatable result with the same engine!I don't care if you know who I am or not either. I just asked you to tell me how you were going to get 100% more air through the engine at only 1.3Bar boost when the standard engine is already running at least 0.9Bar. Of course you might be able to do this, but not with standard cams, valves, ports etc.
Even with 100% more air, you're telling me the heat rejection to the cylinder head is going to be under control, or that your turbine inlet temperature is going to be cool enough to make it last more than three minutes?
And yes, even the standard engine makes more than 212hp - when it's running cooler than the standard test conditions. That's the thing with boosted engines - if you're going to compare apples to apples, you have to at least keep the test conditions consistent. If you just want to see big numbers, don't even bother testing. Just print them on a piece of paper and save yourself the fuel and grief!
AER said:
I'm afraid it's not true just because it's printed on a piece of paper. I've spent enough time in my life measuring engine power (amongst other things) to know that, even on an engine dyno, it's not a walk in the park to get even a repeatable result with the same engine!
I don't care if you know who I am or not either. I just asked you to tell me how you were going to get 100% more air through the engine at only 1.3Bar boost when the standard engine is already running at least 0.9Bar. Of course you might be able to do this, but not with standard cams, valves, ports etc.
Even with 100% more air, you're telling me the heat rejection to the cylinder head is going to be under control, or that your turbine inlet temperature is going to be cool enough to make it last more than three minutes?
And yes, even the standard engine makes more than 212hp - when it's running cooler than the standard test conditions. That's the thing with boosted engines - if you're going to compare apples to apples, you have to at least keep the test conditions consistent. If you just want to see big numbers, don't even bother testing. Just print them on a piece of paper and save yourself the fuel and grief!
Well regardless of how accurate the dynos are having been in one with allegdly 400bhp i can confirm that it was a seriously quick car but very tractable, obviously wheel spin can be an issue but then it is on a bone stock m5 (whatever model) so where the power goes isnt really of any relevance.I don't care if you know who I am or not either. I just asked you to tell me how you were going to get 100% more air through the engine at only 1.3Bar boost when the standard engine is already running at least 0.9Bar. Of course you might be able to do this, but not with standard cams, valves, ports etc.
Even with 100% more air, you're telling me the heat rejection to the cylinder head is going to be under control, or that your turbine inlet temperature is going to be cool enough to make it last more than three minutes?
And yes, even the standard engine makes more than 212hp - when it's running cooler than the standard test conditions. That's the thing with boosted engines - if you're going to compare apples to apples, you have to at least keep the test conditions consistent. If you just want to see big numbers, don't even bother testing. Just print them on a piece of paper and save yourself the fuel and grief!
1st things 1st there are 380/420 hp zetec on stanard heads and cams, you said in a earlier post that it was impossible. ..
as for air if you look at the standard gt25 look at compressor scaling and it kg squaed graphs compare with a gtx35, like for like at one bar.
then for cooling take away the pretty inefficient charge cooler, replace with air to air.
remove log manifold and restrictive cat and exhaust.
im not some dyno queen who is trying to bluff myself with figures, I use my car to get round tracks as fast as I can, but when I have seen lots of cars making big power. even taking into account of dyno flaws surley there not all telling porkies?
as for air if you look at the standard gt25 look at compressor scaling and it kg squaed graphs compare with a gtx35, like for like at one bar.
then for cooling take away the pretty inefficient charge cooler, replace with air to air.
remove log manifold and restrictive cat and exhaust.
im not some dyno queen who is trying to bluff myself with figures, I use my car to get round tracks as fast as I can, but when I have seen lots of cars making big power. even taking into account of dyno flaws surley there not all telling porkies?
nevsrevs said:
1st things 1st there are 380/420 hp zetec on stanard heads and cams, you said in a earlier post that it was impossible. ..
as for air if you look at the standard gt25 look at compressor scaling and it kg squaed graphs compare with a gtx35, like for like at one bar.
I don't particularly want to get into an internet war, but I stand by my statement that it was highly unlikely, if not impossible. as for air if you look at the standard gt25 look at compressor scaling and it kg squaed graphs compare with a gtx35, like for like at one bar.
As far as turbos are concerned, it isn't the compressor that dictates how much air goes into the engine, especially if we are looking at the 1.0Bar point on the graph. The mass airflow through an engine is roughly proportional to manifold pressure irrespective of how it gets there or whether it's a GTX35 or a GT25 doing the huffing and puffing. At the same boost pressure, engine speed and throttle opening, they will be flowing the same amount of air. The GTX35 will be spinning more slowly though and the wastegate will be further open.
Until you actually get more air through the engine it will be making roughly the same power, give or take a few inefficiencies here and there.
nevsrevs said:
as for air, if you look at the standard gt25 look at compressor scaling and it kg squaed graphs compare with a gtx35, like for like at one bar.
Slightly ironically, it's actually the turbine map you need to be looking at in this case!(because the engine pressure ratio (at 1bar(g) is determined by the pre turbine pressure and nothing to do with the compressor.........)
Anyway, lets not derail the original OP's thread about his RS. I have to say, when i sell my rally car, i could well have a spot in the garage for a mint Mk1 RS !
Been a while since i've posted on here so a quick update 
Cars not been used much due to a new business venture but i still really enjoy driving it when i get the chance, the coil pack called it a day recently on exactly 105k
it was the original part though so no shame for it at all 
Hoping that once the business is up & running i will have a bit of extra money to do some bits & bobs on the car.
Cars not been used much due to a new business venture but i still really enjoy driving it when i get the chance, the coil pack called it a day recently on exactly 105k
it was the original part though so no shame for it at all Hoping that once the business is up & running i will have a bit of extra money to do some bits & bobs on the car.
been trading for almost 2 weeks & things are going well so far Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff