My DDR GT4 build
Discussion
killerferret666 said:
You're both right, for such a lovely car you'd expect to see loads and completed ones. There appears to be very low number completed if any customer wise at the moment, I haven't seen one in the flesh, but the pictures etc... that I have been sent which are not in the public domain as I have raised questions definitely show the car exists as you wouldn't release them as there is no benefit to others.
I am their first UK based customer so I know there are risks and there are some others from other countries being the first as well but hopefully this helps broaden the market.
All of their updates are on their facebook page (news link on their website) which have been showing production of various cars. I spent a long time keeping an eye on kitcar manufacturers as its a tricky business but decided after a year of watching to go with them. I actually first saw it in the Sunday times.
Looks like a great car but for the amount of money you are planning to spend I would build in to your budget a couple of flights out to see the factory and check on your kits progress. It might seem like a lot of extra cost but I'm sure it will pay dividends in getting the build right and also giving you piece of mind. Face to face meetings build up a good rapport for the future numerous emails, etc. I am their first UK based customer so I know there are risks and there are some others from other countries being the first as well but hopefully this helps broaden the market.
All of their updates are on their facebook page (news link on their website) which have been showing production of various cars. I spent a long time keeping an eye on kitcar manufacturers as its a tricky business but decided after a year of watching to go with them. I actually first saw it in the Sunday times.
I bet it would be great fun to go a meet the guys at the factory as well !!
(P.S. In business you'd call this Risk Assessment, Factory audit, Supplier Approval, Contract negotiation, etc etc)
Steve_D said:
Looks like you may need to shift some rear lights as you need reverse and the fog must be 100mm from a brake light.
Steve
Yep these are exactly the minor issues I've found, nothing major work wise as the holes aren't precut for the lights.Steve
pfedwards said:
Looks like a great car but for the amount of money you are planning to spend I would build in to your budget a couple of flights out to see the factory and check on your kits progress. It might seem like a lot of extra cost but I'm sure it will pay dividends in getting the build right and also giving you piece of mind. Face to face meetings build up a good rapport for the future numerous emails, etc.
I bet it would be great fun to go a meet the guys at the factory as well !!
(P.S. In business you'd call this Risk Assessment, Factory audit, Supplier Approval, Contract negotiation, etc etc)
I'm already going to Florida this year later on, If I need to I will pop down and say Hi, so far they've been great with my correspondence. I think unfortunatly being the first in the UK and to try and get through the IVA, a lot of the hurdles I will probably meet first and by myself from people ive spoken to regarding their bespoke builds...one of the pleasures of trying something new I guess I bet it would be great fun to go a meet the guys at the factory as well !!
(P.S. In business you'd call this Risk Assessment, Factory audit, Supplier Approval, Contract negotiation, etc etc)
your a very mad brave person to have ordered something (50% deposit)from the USA without seeing what your buying, seeing the company, seeing a finished car ..contracts..????...
I have searched the internet briefly and the only pictures I can find are the orange car or renders.
Now I assume your a real buyer (although your PH forum posts are solely on this), sorry I am very cynical as many a person come up with what seem like good marketing ploys using the power of the internet.. (they can create false buyers, false build logs, false happy people and if they have there own website can also filter the negatives...)
They are usually really good with initial correspondence and come across as nice people.. funny enough right to the point where they have the 50% up front.
SO moving on, your a real UK buyer.
I would be worrying about:
Actually receiving any goods as Ponzi scams are rampant due to these projects being non profit making as a business and the profit comes in non supply of goods on every 1 in 3 etc. or worse. A member on here flew to Detroit to view a "finished" kit car for the UK and phoned me up in tears as eventually got a "pile of scrap" - search ultima forum and crafty posts.... :-)
The actual quality received (if received) can be far, far beyond your expectations that takes a great deal of time and money to put right.
The IVA potential I would put third on the list to worry about as nearly everything is get aroundable but usually again at the expense of money and time and reliant on your original supplier in most cases...(sometimes part of the Ponzi...as they keep people on the hook...)
- all the above can take the car that far back you would have been better off just buying the body shell and working from that.....
Lets then say you've gone all through this at your time and expense to put a USA kit car through IVA and made a quality road legal car... do you keep it the Miami GT4 or call it the JimPonz GT8.? If only to stop anyone else going through what you've gone through and not to mislead joe public..?
I make no apologies if I am way off mark on this one but just sharing past experience.
We look forward to your blog updates.
I have searched the internet briefly and the only pictures I can find are the orange car or renders.
Now I assume your a real buyer (although your PH forum posts are solely on this), sorry I am very cynical as many a person come up with what seem like good marketing ploys using the power of the internet.. (they can create false buyers, false build logs, false happy people and if they have there own website can also filter the negatives...)
They are usually really good with initial correspondence and come across as nice people.. funny enough right to the point where they have the 50% up front.
SO moving on, your a real UK buyer.
I would be worrying about:
Actually receiving any goods as Ponzi scams are rampant due to these projects being non profit making as a business and the profit comes in non supply of goods on every 1 in 3 etc. or worse. A member on here flew to Detroit to view a "finished" kit car for the UK and phoned me up in tears as eventually got a "pile of scrap" - search ultima forum and crafty posts.... :-)
The actual quality received (if received) can be far, far beyond your expectations that takes a great deal of time and money to put right.
The IVA potential I would put third on the list to worry about as nearly everything is get aroundable but usually again at the expense of money and time and reliant on your original supplier in most cases...(sometimes part of the Ponzi...as they keep people on the hook...)
- all the above can take the car that far back you would have been better off just buying the body shell and working from that.....
Lets then say you've gone all through this at your time and expense to put a USA kit car through IVA and made a quality road legal car... do you keep it the Miami GT4 or call it the JimPonz GT8.? If only to stop anyone else going through what you've gone through and not to mislead joe public..?
I make no apologies if I am way off mark on this one but just sharing past experience.
We look forward to your blog updates.
Edited by craig7l on Monday 1st April 09:16
killerferret666 said:
I'm already going to Florida this year later on, If I need to I will pop down and say Hi
You definitely need to do this! Would be madness not to visit and give their facilities (and the people you're dealing with) a 'once over'. I would be interested to know how they're sustaining the business with no apparent customers. If they have any past customers, I would be wanting to know their contact details so I could speak to them about their experiences in dealing with the company (and the quality of parts supplied, etc). As has been mentioned already, just be very careful and make sure you do as much due diligence as possible before handing-over any money... Google the names of the directors, check-out their business address on Google Maps Street View, Google the registered company name... not sure if there's a US equivalent of Companies House? If so, you can access some very useful and revealing info.Craig7l - Thanks for the reply and all your information. There was only one doubt I ever had in my mind and that was lack / ability to be able to see the quality beforehand. Photo's are all well and good, no matter how many extra photo's you have seen and close ups, But as you say that could be my brave / mad area. Everything else I've checked as much as possible.
Regarding 'checking a company out' as the best way to describe it, googling a company / searching the internet is no longer a good enough search in my books, the internet can be manipulated enough to show things in the light that you want as you said. Social Media on the other hand is much harder to manipulate because of the high human element to it. My research involved research into the person, the company, the history, using social media to find non business related profiles. Are family encouraging the team openly? Other people who had dealt with them? credible other businesses? From this I managed to find out the company was dealing with a university in Florida for their hybrid car project which is now in the public domain. (In the USA a project piece has to be sponsored by local companies to take place at the university, so the state is aware of them). Recently as well this, an IndyCar driver was happy to be shown at that same event with them. As well as this some other drivers / commentators have shown support previously. I could find public support for the company from family members, I could find some history on the people as well and the company.
Of course the risk is the same as any business at the moment regarding business risks, but that's down to us as the buyers to do our own protection regarding that. I weighted up the risks and went for it, I cant complain regarding communication with the team there I haven't been neglected at all yet.
I'll obviously feedback honestly as I progress, if there arent hurdles id be amazed, but its not often I say I hope to prove you wrong, but obviously for the benefit of myself I hope I do No need to apologise of course for your view, but you'll need to remember in the future if my experience is ok how there is two sides to every coin when you express this view.
Ian_uk - yea I think it be nuts not to pop down as well. Only reason not too is if timescales don't allow as I do have other priorities whilst there.
Mrpink - Already discussing with others. Great minds think alike ;-)
Regarding 'checking a company out' as the best way to describe it, googling a company / searching the internet is no longer a good enough search in my books, the internet can be manipulated enough to show things in the light that you want as you said. Social Media on the other hand is much harder to manipulate because of the high human element to it. My research involved research into the person, the company, the history, using social media to find non business related profiles. Are family encouraging the team openly? Other people who had dealt with them? credible other businesses? From this I managed to find out the company was dealing with a university in Florida for their hybrid car project which is now in the public domain. (In the USA a project piece has to be sponsored by local companies to take place at the university, so the state is aware of them). Recently as well this, an IndyCar driver was happy to be shown at that same event with them. As well as this some other drivers / commentators have shown support previously. I could find public support for the company from family members, I could find some history on the people as well and the company.
Of course the risk is the same as any business at the moment regarding business risks, but that's down to us as the buyers to do our own protection regarding that. I weighted up the risks and went for it, I cant complain regarding communication with the team there I haven't been neglected at all yet.
I'll obviously feedback honestly as I progress, if there arent hurdles id be amazed, but its not often I say I hope to prove you wrong, but obviously for the benefit of myself I hope I do No need to apologise of course for your view, but you'll need to remember in the future if my experience is ok how there is two sides to every coin when you express this view.
Ian_uk - yea I think it be nuts not to pop down as well. Only reason not too is if timescales don't allow as I do have other priorities whilst there.
Mrpink - Already discussing with others. Great minds think alike ;-)
matlee said:
What are you hoping/expecting the finished cost is going to be?
I'm expecting to spend around £25k, the actual cost currently worked out is less but realisticly it will probably be higher then actual forecast as I change the quality of the finish / parts. Id obviously like it lower but that's what I'm expecting to come in at. I've actually been very lucky so far as I managed to buy a MR2 for the donor parts where the shell was rotten through and got a turbo for £1k. Off of that I took all Donor parts I needed and sold all the other parts.
I am keeping a spreadsheet of costs and will release it as I get towards the end so people have a good idea of costs involved with the project.
craig7l said:
Actually receiving any goods as Ponzi scams are rampant due to these projects being non profit making as a business and the profit comes in non supply of goods on every 1 in 3 etc. or worse. A member on here flew to Detroit to view a "finished" kit car for the UK and phoned me up in tears as eventually got a "pile of scrap" - search ultima forum and crafty posts.... :-)
Wasn't that you? Otherwise, what on earth are you talking about?Moogle said:
Wasn't that you? Otherwise, what on earth are you talking about?
No, a guy after me called Kyle rushall ( despite everything I warned to him) flew to Detroit and placed an order for an SLC, to finally get what he described to me in tears as a pile of scrap needing too much work to complete...he off loaded all his "bits" to a foreign buyer I believe.........craig7l said:
Moogle said:
Wasn't that you? Otherwise, what on earth are you talking about?
No, a guy after me called Kyle rushall ( despite everything I warned to him) flew to Detroit and placed an order for an SLC, to finally get what he described to me in tears as a pile of scrap needing too much work to complete...he off loaded all his "bits" to a foreign buyer I believe.........Hoonigan said:
craig7l said:
Moogle said:
Wasn't that you? Otherwise, what on earth are you talking about?
No, a guy after me called Kyle rushall ( despite everything I warned to him) flew to Detroit and placed an order for an SLC, to finally get what he described to me in tears as a pile of scrap needing too much work to complete...he off loaded all his "bits" to a foreign buyer I believe.........when you say "looked" do you mean you saw SLC kits that had been delivered to the UK or looked on the internet?
as a by the by... just wondering why a USA LOW volume company would even want the hassle of dealing with a UK buyer... how big is the home market for a "great" product...?
UK is far more hassle than any USA state to get a car IVAd let alone other issues along the way... I also believe in general a UK buyer is far more critical in overall quality than perhaps some USA buyers...? subjective I know....??
I would hate to think the USA think of the UK as take it up the shytter scrap bin.... ???
as back to the DDR I would have thought they would have concentrated on finished product in the USA before trying to expand globally....?? thoughts...?
UK is far more hassle than any USA state to get a car IVAd let alone other issues along the way... I also believe in general a UK buyer is far more critical in overall quality than perhaps some USA buyers...? subjective I know....??
I would hate to think the USA think of the UK as take it up the shytter scrap bin.... ???
as back to the DDR I would have thought they would have concentrated on finished product in the USA before trying to expand globally....?? thoughts...?
mrpink said:
Hoonigan said:
craig7l said:
Moogle said:
Wasn't that you? Otherwise, what on earth are you talking about?
No, a guy after me called Kyle rushall ( despite everything I warned to him) flew to Detroit and placed an order for an SLC, to finally get what he described to me in tears as a pile of scrap needing too much work to complete...he off loaded all his "bits" to a foreign buyer I believe.........when you say "looked" do you mean you saw SLC kits that had been delivered to the UK or looked on the internet?
Hoonigan said:
mrpink said:
Hoonigan said:
craig7l said:
Moogle said:
Wasn't that you? Otherwise, what on earth are you talking about?
No, a guy after me called Kyle rushall ( despite everything I warned to him) flew to Detroit and placed an order for an SLC, to finally get what he described to me in tears as a pile of scrap needing too much work to complete...he off loaded all his "bits" to a foreign buyer I believe.........when you say "looked" do you mean you saw SLC kits that had been delivered to the UK or looked on the internet?
RCR section of GT40 forum is moderated by Fran Hall as well as the forum owner having a vested interest in RCR!! so you won't any see negatives as they are deleted PDQ!!!
Only 3 SLC kits ( I use the term loosely) ever delivered to the UK, customer satisfaction all well documented on here and elsewhere so perhaps your research was not as thorough as you may think?
Living in a country with a "name & shame" law, you two Johnny-one-notes are pretty aggressive about slagging RCR.
Aren't you getting tired of it?
I know the rest of the universe is...
Aren't you getting tired of it?
I know the rest of the universe is...
mrpink said:
won't post again as it is thread hijack and that not fair, sorry OP, just to add:
RCR section of GT40 forum is moderated by Fran Hall as well as the forum owner having a vested interest in RCR!! so you won't any see negatives as they are deleted PDQ!!!
Only 3 SLC kits ( I use the term loosely) ever delivered to the UK, customer satisfaction all well documented on here and elsewhere so perhaps your research was not as thorough as you may think?
RCR section of GT40 forum is moderated by Fran Hall as well as the forum owner having a vested interest in RCR!! so you won't any see negatives as they are deleted PDQ!!!
Only 3 SLC kits ( I use the term loosely) ever delivered to the UK, customer satisfaction all well documented on here and elsewhere so perhaps your research was not as thorough as you may think?
Boostaddiction said:
Living in a country with a "name & shame" law, you two Johnny-one-notes are pretty aggressive about slagging RCR.
Aren't you getting tired of it?
I know the rest of the universe is...
wouldn't that be "SLC universe"..?...........nice white SLC Mr boostaddiction, let us know when its finished.....Aren't you getting tired of it?
I know the rest of the universe is...
As the original post here was looking for hints and tips, hopefully I have given food for thought on experiences with USA to UK purchase on kit cars which may or may not be relevant to Sir James....
regards
well those posts had me trawling the internet for hours, my missus was even happier
I do feel in a less risky situation,ignoring the SLC debarcle as i can only base it on what ive read. My stand point is I chose not to have a turnkey kitcar from outside the UK for 2 reasons;
1. I wanted to build it myself
2. I dont believe most foreign kitcar manufacturers can meet UK regs unless doing it day in day out and if it didnt meet it once the car was here, what then.
The reason being is, they are a business they need to get orders in cars out, as a home builder I can take my time and double checke everything. So in this case it will be down to me to make this car IVA compliant. Yes ill need to alter slight things to the cars original design / build but nothing I cant deal with.
If i get it through first time ill be over the moon, but im expecting to come out with some minor changes required like most builds, built in the UK.
I do feel in a less risky situation,ignoring the SLC debarcle as i can only base it on what ive read. My stand point is I chose not to have a turnkey kitcar from outside the UK for 2 reasons;
1. I wanted to build it myself
2. I dont believe most foreign kitcar manufacturers can meet UK regs unless doing it day in day out and if it didnt meet it once the car was here, what then.
The reason being is, they are a business they need to get orders in cars out, as a home builder I can take my time and double checke everything. So in this case it will be down to me to make this car IVA compliant. Yes ill need to alter slight things to the cars original design / build but nothing I cant deal with.
If i get it through first time ill be over the moon, but im expecting to come out with some minor changes required like most builds, built in the UK.
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