Discussion
Jeez, what rotten luck. Hopefully it's not as bad as it could be. For a motor that's supposed to be good for being spanked for hours on end it does seem odd that you suffered oil surge. I'm not familiar with the S14, but is there the possibility there might be an issue with the oil pick up?
Good luck with the investigations!!
Good luck with the investigations!!
In regards to your oil pressure warning, I would imagine would has happened is you've found the limit in which your baffled sump can stop surge.
Baffled sumps will stop surge to a point, but when your pushing hard on a circuit with high speed/high G corners there comes a point where the baffled sump will fail in keeping oil by the pick up point due to the higher G forces pushing the oil to either side of the sump.
In my race car we run a baffled sump along with a Accusump to help prevent oil surge, even then we have lost an engine at Snetterton going round Coram as the Accusump couldn't recharge in time for when the oil pressure dropped twice in the the same corner!
Baffled sumps will stop surge to a point, but when your pushing hard on a circuit with high speed/high G corners there comes a point where the baffled sump will fail in keeping oil by the pick up point due to the higher G forces pushing the oil to either side of the sump.
In my race car we run a baffled sump along with a Accusump to help prevent oil surge, even then we have lost an engine at Snetterton going round Coram as the Accusump couldn't recharge in time for when the oil pressure dropped twice in the the same corner!
Mark,
Were the brakes good? I assume so.
Can I point out my post from
Were the brakes good? I assume so.
Can I point out my post from
stevesingo said:
I believe this is your sump.
You can see the size of the opening through which the oil pump passes and the use of what appears to be sprung trap doors.
Now compare to a replica BMW MS sump
The aperture for the pump is much smaller and the cutout for the big end to pass through is a minimum. This stops the oil surging up the timing chain cover under heavy braking. It also uses rubber flap valves for the lateral baffles.
Keep an eye on your pressure when under braking!
Also, did you fill the oil to the first kink in on the dip stick?You can see the size of the opening through which the oil pump passes and the use of what appears to be sprung trap doors.
Now compare to a replica BMW MS sump
The aperture for the pump is much smaller and the cutout for the big end to pass through is a minimum. This stops the oil surging up the timing chain cover under heavy braking. It also uses rubber flap valves for the lateral baffles.
Keep an eye on your pressure when under braking!
stevesingo said:
Mark,
Were the brakes good? I assume so.
Can I point out my post from
They were pretty good, yes.Were the brakes good? I assume so.
Can I point out my post from
stevesingo said:
I believe this is your sump.
You can see the size of the opening through which the oil pump passes and the use of what appears to be sprung trap doors.
Now compare to a replica BMW MS sump
The aperture for the pump is much smaller and the cutout for the big end to pass through is a minimum. This stops the oil surging up the timing chain cover under heavy braking. It also uses rubber flap valves for the lateral baffles.
Keep an eye on your pressure when under braking!
Also, did you fill the oil to the first kink in on the dip stick?You can see the size of the opening through which the oil pump passes and the use of what appears to be sprung trap doors.
Now compare to a replica BMW MS sump
The aperture for the pump is much smaller and the cutout for the big end to pass through is a minimum. This stops the oil surging up the timing chain cover under heavy braking. It also uses rubber flap valves for the lateral baffles.
Keep an eye on your pressure when under braking!
Yes, I've been borderline OCD when it comes to oil and coolant levels and always make sure to follow your advice re filling to the first kink. Unfortunately the 2nd pic isn't working but I'll try and find one via Google.
Are you logging oil pressure? Under what circumstances did oil pressure drop, cornering/braking? What did the pressure drop to? What was the oil temp?
What is concerning is water temps of 102deg. Under what circumstances? If when pulling in to the pits and idling, then fair enough. If whilst on circuit, then there is an issue. I did a track day at Croft when it was 25+degC. With 270-280bhp, stock radiator, thermostat, pump, I didn't see anything over 95 whilst on track during 30min sessions.
What do the plugs look like? Can you do a bore scope inspection of the cylinders? What were the AFRs whilst running and was this logged?
Detonation will ruin bearings. It will also increase bulk material temps as the heat released from combustion is not pushing the piston down and it must go somewhere; the cooling system will absorb the excess heat.
Over advance will also do the same but without the tell tale signs of detonation such as piston/chamber/plug/damage.
Who mapped it? Can you get a copy of the Map and the Log?
What is concerning is water temps of 102deg. Under what circumstances? If when pulling in to the pits and idling, then fair enough. If whilst on circuit, then there is an issue. I did a track day at Croft when it was 25+degC. With 270-280bhp, stock radiator, thermostat, pump, I didn't see anything over 95 whilst on track during 30min sessions.
What do the plugs look like? Can you do a bore scope inspection of the cylinders? What were the AFRs whilst running and was this logged?
Detonation will ruin bearings. It will also increase bulk material temps as the heat released from combustion is not pushing the piston down and it must go somewhere; the cooling system will absorb the excess heat.
Over advance will also do the same but without the tell tale signs of detonation such as piston/chamber/plug/damage.
Who mapped it? Can you get a copy of the Map and the Log?
I need to go over and check but I think the 102 was just the peak, so most likely in the paddock, but will get more details later. I had the alarms set at pretty conservative levels though and none were tripped whilst out on track. I can't recall the exact AFR gauge reading but there were no red lights.
I think the oil pressure dropped to around 22 - 24 from memory? I'll confirm once able.
It was after passing through the chicane after Woodcote, just as I passed the chequered flag.
I think the oil pressure dropped to around 22 - 24 from memory? I'll confirm once able.
It was after passing through the chicane after Woodcote, just as I passed the chequered flag.
Edited by e30m3Mark on Tuesday 22 May 12:25
Well the news isn't good. Sump off and spun big end shell on number 1 although I had been expecting number 4. It's clear from the colour of the bearing cap that there was quite a bit of heat generated.
Engine builder is going to view and we'll go from there I guess, but there were no warning signs that there was anything wrong.
I'm at a loss as what I'm going to do? I simply cannot afford another build and the crank will clearly need a regrind. I see +1 bearings are available but what else is going to need replacing? More importantly though, I need to discover the reason it failed in the first place so as to guard against a repeat performance.
I don't have the other info yet.
Engine builder is going to view and we'll go from there I guess, but there were no warning signs that there was anything wrong.
I'm at a loss as what I'm going to do? I simply cannot afford another build and the crank will clearly need a regrind. I see +1 bearings are available but what else is going to need replacing? More importantly though, I need to discover the reason it failed in the first place so as to guard against a repeat performance.
I don't have the other info yet.
s
t. That's horrible luck.
If you only had the one warning of low pressure and i think i read it only dropped to 20 psi ish. I'd have to be asking questions about the engine builder.
I'd be thinking the low pressure was from the bearing spinning rather than the other way round.
With all the precautions you have taken i think its more than just a surge issue. I really hope you find the cuase.
t. That's horrible luck. If you only had the one warning of low pressure and i think i read it only dropped to 20 psi ish. I'd have to be asking questions about the engine builder.
I'd be thinking the low pressure was from the bearing spinning rather than the other way round.
With all the precautions you have taken i think its more than just a surge issue. I really hope you find the cuase.
Right now it's just a case of waiting. The engine is out and going back to the builder to be stripped and inspected.
In readiness though, I have started looking for parts and am grateful to Kirby @ C3 who has a crankshaft.
It may well be the final straw though, in which case I will have to sell.
In readiness though, I have started looking for parts and am grateful to Kirby @ C3 who has a crankshaft.
It may well be the final straw though, in which case I will have to sell.
e30m3Mark said:
Right now it's just a case of waiting. The engine is out and going back to the builder to be stripped and inspected.
In readiness though, I have started looking for parts and am grateful to Kirby @ C3 who has a crankshaft.
It may well be the final straw though, in which case I will have to sell.
I really hope not after all the time effort and money you have spent. Fingers crossed for you. In readiness though, I have started looking for parts and am grateful to Kirby @ C3 who has a crankshaft.
It may well be the final straw though, in which case I will have to sell.
Thanks.
So far I've written and deleted 3 adverts.
My problem is that there's just nothing else that I want but I just can't keep throwing money at the M3. Especially when it's cash I simply don't have. Maybe I should try crowd funding in return for passenger laps or use at school proms and the like?
So far I've written and deleted 3 adverts.
My problem is that there's just nothing else that I want but I just can't keep throwing money at the M3. Especially when it's cash I simply don't have. Maybe I should try crowd funding in return for passenger laps or use at school proms and the like?
Jeeze.. you really don't have much luck with the oil system with that car Mark 
Given the amount you've invested in the engine, have you not considered getting something like a full dry sump or at least and accusump system to prevent the engine seeing oil pressure issues?
http://www.accusump.com/
Given the amount you've invested in the engine, have you not considered getting something like a full dry sump or at least and accusump system to prevent the engine seeing oil pressure issues?
http://www.accusump.com/
Yes, it's something I've looked at previously. That said, there are plenty of s14's around, that are much more tuned than mine, yet don't suffer the failures I have. It's the not knowing the reason for the failure which is driving me mental right now. Literally every bearing was replaced and there appears to be some premature wear throughout. As I say, right now I am waiting on the builder inspecting the engine but it's clear the bottom end at least, will require rebuilding. I can't do that till I know why it failed though?
If the engine has displayed good oil pressure in normal use and no surges under braking/cornering, it is unlikely to be an lubrication system issue, unless oil temps have gone north of 140degC. You haven't mentioned oil temps?
More likely to be mapping. Over advanced ignition will not always lead to detonation/pre-ignition. The BMW S14 is seldom knock limited on Super Unleaded fuel at any reasonable level of tune. Sure 13:1 compression and mild cams will give you issues, but no one ever does this. 11-11.5:1 on Schrick 284/276 is universally used without significant issue. My engine is 12:1 with 292/284 cams and I have a decent margin between the amount of advance needed to make best torque (Minimum Best Torque or MBT) and any signs of detonation, something in the region or 3-5deg at peak torque and more elsewhere.
Sadly, some tuners tend to advance the ignition until they hear knock and then wind it back a couple of degrees. The problem with that is if there is 10deg of advance between peak torque and detonation/pre-ignition you can end up being 7-8deg over advanced. Given the idea behind setting the ignition timing is to have peak cylinder pressure occur at the point where the piston/rod has the best mechanical advantage over the crank pin, which is normally around 15-25deg, you can see what effect being 7-8deg over advanced would have. Peak cylinder pressure occurs when the piston is still dwelling at TDC and the rod is still almost vertical. The pressure needs to go somewhere and as the oil film cannot support such loads it is the bearings that get hammered.
More likely to be mapping. Over advanced ignition will not always lead to detonation/pre-ignition. The BMW S14 is seldom knock limited on Super Unleaded fuel at any reasonable level of tune. Sure 13:1 compression and mild cams will give you issues, but no one ever does this. 11-11.5:1 on Schrick 284/276 is universally used without significant issue. My engine is 12:1 with 292/284 cams and I have a decent margin between the amount of advance needed to make best torque (Minimum Best Torque or MBT) and any signs of detonation, something in the region or 3-5deg at peak torque and more elsewhere.
Sadly, some tuners tend to advance the ignition until they hear knock and then wind it back a couple of degrees. The problem with that is if there is 10deg of advance between peak torque and detonation/pre-ignition you can end up being 7-8deg over advanced. Given the idea behind setting the ignition timing is to have peak cylinder pressure occur at the point where the piston/rod has the best mechanical advantage over the crank pin, which is normally around 15-25deg, you can see what effect being 7-8deg over advanced would have. Peak cylinder pressure occurs when the piston is still dwelling at TDC and the rod is still almost vertical. The pressure needs to go somewhere and as the oil film cannot support such loads it is the bearings that get hammered.
Sorry to read of yet more rotten luck.
As someone who has had engines fail and sold cars as a result (& subsequently regretted it), I'd advise that you take a step back and properly consider your options.
I.E you already own the car, admittedly it doesn't run now. Get it home, throw a sheet over it and let your financials recoup. Whilst it's parked, it's not costing anything. Then make your plan to use someone for both engine work & mapping who has a solid reputation specifically on S14's, and ask them if they'd work on it slow time.
Personally, I wouldn't let anyone other than Chipwizards map any car of mine. Both my M3's were mapped there, and both have been used for proper cruel competition use with no issues. Both are JC Racing built engines.
Don't rush to sell because you can't afford the repair right now - cover it up, take a breath and make a new plan with some new providers.
Just my 2p.
As someone who has had engines fail and sold cars as a result (& subsequently regretted it), I'd advise that you take a step back and properly consider your options.
I.E you already own the car, admittedly it doesn't run now. Get it home, throw a sheet over it and let your financials recoup. Whilst it's parked, it's not costing anything. Then make your plan to use someone for both engine work & mapping who has a solid reputation specifically on S14's, and ask them if they'd work on it slow time.
Personally, I wouldn't let anyone other than Chipwizards map any car of mine. Both my M3's were mapped there, and both have been used for proper cruel competition use with no issues. Both are JC Racing built engines.
Don't rush to sell because you can't afford the repair right now - cover it up, take a breath and make a new plan with some new providers.
Just my 2p.
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