Yet another rescued E36 328i M Sport project...
Discussion
Great project.
I can't see any M3 out driving your 328 without a lot of work.
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
The E36 M3 isn't meant to be particularly good so I wouldn't go there either TBH.
I can't see any M3 out driving your 328 without a lot of work.
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
The E36 M3 isn't meant to be particularly good so I wouldn't go there either TBH.
SidewaysSi said:
Great project.
I can't see any M3 out driving your 328 without a lot of work.
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
The E36 M3 isn't meant to be particularly good so I wouldn't go there either TBH.
Having spent around £5k on rebuilding the later steel liner block, with lots of mods/upgrades, fitting the correct 328 LSD, etc. Should be looking to achieve an extra 50 or so horses from the original factory spec of 197 hp AND a fairly decent 0 to 60 time. Upgraded suspension, bodywork stiffening and bigger E46 330 drilled and grooved brakes etc...I can't see any M3 out driving your 328 without a lot of work.
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
The E36 M3 isn't meant to be particularly good so I wouldn't go there either TBH.
Think you're right. Gonna be a tough car to beat AND could still take it out on the odd track day at Castle Combe...
Edited by RickBristol on Monday 13th November 16:46
Damn right. A standard M3 is really going to be a bit crap compared to your car.
My 328 has quite a few upgrades too including Bilstein B12, Z3 rack, M3 bushes, E30 arms etc. I wouldn't swap it for a heavier, duller M3.
What radiator are you running? I have the bits to get a Mishimoto set up (rad, expansion tank etc) - let's see how it goes..
My 328 has quite a few upgrades too including Bilstein B12, Z3 rack, M3 bushes, E30 arms etc. I wouldn't swap it for a heavier, duller M3.
What radiator are you running? I have the bits to get a Mishimoto set up (rad, expansion tank etc) - let's see how it goes..
SidewaysSi said:
Damn right. A standard M3 is really going to be a bit crap compared to your car.
My 328 has quite a few upgrades too including Bilstein B12, Z3 rack, M3 bushes, E30 arms etc. I wouldn't swap it for a heavier, duller M3.
What radiator are you running? I have the bits to get a Mishimoto set up (rad, expansion tank etc) - let's see how it goes..
Standard rad. I was aware that it needs upgrading. So you might have something of interest for me?My 328 has quite a few upgrades too including Bilstein B12, Z3 rack, M3 bushes, E30 arms etc. I wouldn't swap it for a heavier, duller M3.
What radiator are you running? I have the bits to get a Mishimoto set up (rad, expansion tank etc) - let's see how it goes..
SidewaysSi said:
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
I don't know how to break it to you, but the OP's (and your) car is no featherweight at 1.4 tonnes... The E46 M3 however tips the scales at over 1.5 tonnes, which is the equivalent of the 328 carrying a full tank and an adult passenger.As for size, the difference is a couple of cm in width and length - to the extent that it would be barely noticeable.
Perception is a funny thing.
Edited by C70R on Monday 13th November 07:51
RickBristol said:
LanceRS said:
And they come with a complimentary chocolate.
So, you mentioned some time back that you would like to see the car in flesh at a meet. It should, hopefully, be finished by February. When and where will the next be happening? Have valued your comments AND support throughout my project thread and would be good to meet you and show you the finished article...RickBristol said:
SidewaysSi said:
Damn right. A standard M3 is really going to be a bit crap compared to your car.
My 328 has quite a few upgrades too including Bilstein B12, Z3 rack, M3 bushes, E30 arms etc. I wouldn't swap it for a heavier, duller M3.
What radiator are you running? I have the bits to get a Mishimoto set up (rad, expansion tank etc) - let's see how it goes..
Standard rad. I was aware that it needs upgrading. So you might have something of interest for me?My 328 has quite a few upgrades too including Bilstein B12, Z3 rack, M3 bushes, E30 arms etc. I wouldn't swap it for a heavier, duller M3.
What radiator are you running? I have the bits to get a Mishimoto set up (rad, expansion tank etc) - let's see how it goes..
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
I don't know how to break it to you, but the OP's (and your) car is no featherweight at 1.4 tonnes... The E46 M3 however tips the scales at over 1.5 tonnes, which is the equivalent of the 328 carrying a full tank and an adult passenger.As for size, the difference is a couple of cm in width and length - to the extent that it would be barely noticeable.
Perception is a funny thing.
Edited by C70R on Monday 13th November 07:51
No BMW is a lightweight, let's be honest but for me, I definitely don't want another 150Kg to lug about for little gain. Also my car is actually a bit too heavy for my liking. I would completely strip it out if I could but I need it to carry people.
Ideally I want:
- Around 1000-1100 Kg
- RWD
- Mechanical and as full of feel as I can get
- Reliable
- Parkable (flies under the radar)
- Quick enough and slideable at road speeds
- Capable of doing the odd trackday
- Practical enough to carry 4 adults in some comfort
- Reasonably safe as it needs to be a family car
- No more than £15k all in.
Given that list, there is no car that hits all bases that I can think of. Probably closest is an Alfa 105 but that falls short in a number of key areas.
My 328 (and the OP's even more so) are about as close as I can think of. Yes, they are no lightweight but on road, they would be a damn sight more fun than some worn out E46 M3. And that's before you bring costs into the equation.
I have driven quite a few E46s and never liked them - always felt the steering was a bit crap and they just feel like they are more remote than they should be. M3 very much included.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 13th November 21:24
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
I don't know how to break it to you, but the OP's (and your) car is no featherweight at 1.4 tonnes... The E46 M3 however tips the scales at over 1.5 tonnes, which is the equivalent of the 328 carrying a full tank and an adult passenger.As for size, the difference is a couple of cm in width and length - to the extent that it would be barely noticeable.
Perception is a funny thing.
Edited by C70R on Monday 13th November 07:51
No BMW is a lightweight, let's be honest but for me, I definitely don't want another 150Kg to lug about for little gain. Also my car is actually a bit too heavy for my liking. I would completely strip it out if I could but I need it to carry people.
...
My 328 (and the OP's even more so) are about as close as I can think of. Yes, they are no lightweight but on road, they would be a damn sight more fun than some worn out E46 M3. And that's before you bring costs into the equation.
I have driven quite a few E46s and never liked them - always felt the steering was a bit crap and they just feel like they are more remote than they should be. M3 very much included.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 13th November 21:24
On the subject of the weight difference, you're clutching at straws to say that 10% less weight makes your car a better drive - the effect on driveability of a passenger and a full tank is going to be largely negligible. There are so many more variables, not least the fact that the M3 is better damped, making almost double the power, and has a stiffer chassis/shell.
Moreover, if you could tell the difference that 30kg of engine makes to handling in a road car, your talents are probably wasted on an internet forum. That is absolutely minuscule - and almost equivalent to removing aircon. It almost feels like you're looking at the two cars and trying to find something which paints the E36 favourably. There's nothing to say that the E36 328i is a bad car, but I can't see any objective argument that makes it better than an E46 M3.
Evo rated the E46 M3 as the best car available for £10k (or £15k) a couple of years back. The E36 328i is a decent car in its own right, but it wasn't even close to that conversation (nor was it even in the running for the "best car for £5k").
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 14th November 11:15
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
I don't know how to break it to you, but the OP's (and your) car is no featherweight at 1.4 tonnes... The E46 M3 however tips the scales at over 1.5 tonnes, which is the equivalent of the 328 carrying a full tank and an adult passenger.As for size, the difference is a couple of cm in width and length - to the extent that it would be barely noticeable.
Perception is a funny thing.
Edited by C70R on Monday 13th November 07:51
No BMW is a lightweight, let's be honest but for me, I definitely don't want another 150Kg to lug about for little gain. Also my car is actually a bit too heavy for my liking. I would completely strip it out if I could but I need it to carry people.
...
My 328 (and the OP's even more so) are about as close as I can think of. Yes, they are no lightweight but on road, they would be a damn sight more fun than some worn out E46 M3. And that's before you bring costs into the equation.
I have driven quite a few E46s and never liked them - always felt the steering was a bit crap and they just feel like they are more remote than they should be. M3 very much included.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 13th November 21:24
On the subject of the weight difference, you're clutching at straws to say that 10% less weight makes your car a better drive - the effect on driveability of a passenger and a full tank is going to be largely negligible. There are so many more variables, not least the fact that the M3 is better damped, making almost double the power, and has a stiffer chassis/shell.
Moreover, if you could tell the difference that 30kg of engine makes to handling in a road car, your talents are probably wasted on an internet forum. That is absolutely minuscule - and almost equivalent to removing aircon. It almost feels like you're looking at the two cars and trying to find something which paints the E36 favourably. There's nothing to say that the E36 328i is a bad car, but I can't see any objective argument that makes it better than an E46 M3.
Evo rated the E46 M3 as the best car available for £10k (or £15k) a couple of years back. The E36 328i is a decent car in its own right, but it wasn't even close to that conversation (nor was it even in the running for the "best car for £5k").
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 14th November 11:15
You cannot compare all 15-20 year old cars on a like-for-like basis as most would be largely worn out by now. Please explain how a £15k E46 M3 is more fun for you on road than a 328i which has cost £10-15k. Talking damping etc. so definitively makes no sense if I for instance have a 3 way Ohlins set up.
My car, like the OP''s is a project car so talking EVO reviews means very little. PH did have a modded E36 which I think wasn't too shabby with Nitrons etc.
As for weight, sorry but 10% is hardly insignificant. My old DC2 was about the sweet spot in terms of weight for usable 4 seater IMO and another 110 KG would have been very noticeable.
My other cars are a modified Elise and Caterham and in those you really can feel any extra mass.
Depends what you look for but I like my cars more hardcore than most which does skew my priorities.
Been following this thread for a while OP. Just joined up to show appreciation for what you're doing for you car. I'm glad to see you have an agreed value policy as my 328i sport was written off a few days ago and mine was valued at £1500...
I was also in the same boat as you regarding the M3. I had a go, and unless you're really wringing it's neck it just doesn't seem worth 'trading up' from the 328. Left me feeling disappointed.
I was also in the same boat as you regarding the M3. I had a go, and unless you're really wringing it's neck it just doesn't seem worth 'trading up' from the 328. Left me feeling disappointed.
Dave0321 said:
Been following this thread for a while OP. Just joined up to show appreciation for what you're doing for you car. I'm glad to see you have an agreed value policy as my 328i sport was written off a few days ago and mine was valued at £1500...
I was also in the same boat as you regarding the M3. I had a go, and unless you're really wringing it's neck it just doesn't seem worth 'trading up' from the 328. Left me feeling disappointed.
Thanks for your continued interest. Its always nice to know that there are people out there who are following the project's progress and not just dipping-in to comment on the odd subject that arises.I was also in the same boat as you regarding the M3. I had a go, and unless you're really wringing it's neck it just doesn't seem worth 'trading up' from the 328. Left me feeling disappointed.
Sorry to hear about your car BTW. Another one lost.
Hopefully it will still serve as a donor for parts for those still on the road... M3.... Well, it was a nice idea, but I think that I dodged a bullet there...
Stay tuned, got a lot more happening and some good progress in the last couple of weeks.
Edited by RickBristol on Saturday 18th November 17:28
My god! It really feels like I'm 'ploughing' through this project some times...
Well, here goes. Have finally got the driver's side outer sill welded into position in the last couple of days.
The sill was clamped into its position.
The area where the new sill panel fitted to the swage line was a real pain in the ass to sort. It has to be sandwiched between the outer main body panel and an inner panel on the inside of the car.
A bottle jack was used to make the underside of the sill fit snuggly to the underside of the floor pan.
The underside of the sill was then spot welded through the floor and was then welded with a continuous seem weld from underneath the the car.
The inner support strut that had to be cut to allow for fitting the sill correctly, was welded back into position and the weld was then completed around the bottom of the door frame.
The under side of the sill was then stone chipped before the primer is applied.
The welds around the swage line and where the new sill meets the door frame have been completed, ready for grinding back.
Well, here goes. Have finally got the driver's side outer sill welded into position in the last couple of days.
The sill was clamped into its position.
The area where the new sill panel fitted to the swage line was a real pain in the ass to sort. It has to be sandwiched between the outer main body panel and an inner panel on the inside of the car.
A bottle jack was used to make the underside of the sill fit snuggly to the underside of the floor pan.
The underside of the sill was then spot welded through the floor and was then welded with a continuous seem weld from underneath the the car.
The inner support strut that had to be cut to allow for fitting the sill correctly, was welded back into position and the weld was then completed around the bottom of the door frame.
The under side of the sill was then stone chipped before the primer is applied.
The welds around the swage line and where the new sill meets the door frame have been completed, ready for grinding back.
Now it was time to move onto the passenger side - which had the bad rust holes in it.
The main part of the old sill was cut away.
My god, look at that rust!
Its a bloody good thing that I've got a strong constitution and don't feint easily. The inside of the bottom of the outer sill was almost rusted through.
You can also see where the rust was starting to infect the inner sill.
Having made some enquiries, I found that a replacement inner sill would have had to come from BMW - no after market inner sills available - and decided that as it was a panel that would never be seen it was decided that the rust should be cut out and the afected areas plated. Also avoided waiting another 7 to 10 days for the part to come from Germany.
In order to help push things on, and to keep the repair costs down, I donned my work clothes and got my hands dirty. First order was to use a wire brush air tool to remove all traces of rust on the inner sill.
The inner support strut was cut, so that the new outer sill could be correctly inserted into place, prior to welding.
And finally, the spot welds around the bottom of the support strut were drilled out to enable the strut to be bent out of the way.
After a good day's labour. I left my mechanic to create and weld-in metal plates where the inner sill rust was cut out.,
We're nw rust free baby!!!!
The main part of the old sill was cut away.
My god, look at that rust!
Its a bloody good thing that I've got a strong constitution and don't feint easily. The inside of the bottom of the outer sill was almost rusted through.You can also see where the rust was starting to infect the inner sill.
Having made some enquiries, I found that a replacement inner sill would have had to come from BMW - no after market inner sills available - and decided that as it was a panel that would never be seen it was decided that the rust should be cut out and the afected areas plated. Also avoided waiting another 7 to 10 days for the part to come from Germany.
In order to help push things on, and to keep the repair costs down, I donned my work clothes and got my hands dirty. First order was to use a wire brush air tool to remove all traces of rust on the inner sill.
The inner support strut was cut, so that the new outer sill could be correctly inserted into place, prior to welding.
And finally, the spot welds around the bottom of the support strut were drilled out to enable the strut to be bent out of the way.
After a good day's labour. I left my mechanic to create and weld-in metal plates where the inner sill rust was cut out.,
We're nw rust free baby!!!!
the only criticism for me would be .... if only all of the work could have been captured on video Some great work going on here!
The rear sills on my '97 Touring daily are absolutely ratf
ked - every year they get cleaned up with a grinder and a savage wire cup brush, some P38 smoothed in and a coating of underseal. Time will come when I have to get it properly sorted as I like the old bus and will not part with it. Not that it's worth more than a cup of cold p!ss anyway.
The rear sills on my '97 Touring daily are absolutely ratf
ked - every year they get cleaned up with a grinder and a savage wire cup brush, some P38 smoothed in and a coating of underseal. Time will come when I have to get it properly sorted as I like the old bus and will not part with it. Not that it's worth more than a cup of cold p!ss anyway.SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
C70R said:
SidewaysSi said:
I don't think much of the E46 M3 - too big, heavy, isolated and boring on road IMO. A comfy cruiser but found it to lack the sharpness I look for.
I don't know how to break it to you, but the OP's (and your) car is no featherweight at 1.4 tonnes... The E46 M3 however tips the scales at over 1.5 tonnes, which is the equivalent of the 328 carrying a full tank and an adult passenger.As for size, the difference is a couple of cm in width and length - to the extent that it would be barely noticeable.
Perception is a funny thing.
Edited by C70R on Monday 13th November 07:51
No BMW is a lightweight, let's be honest but for me, I definitely don't want another 150Kg to lug about for little gain. Also my car is actually a bit too heavy for my liking. I would completely strip it out if I could but I need it to carry people.
...
My 328 (and the OP's even more so) are about as close as I can think of. Yes, they are no lightweight but on road, they would be a damn sight more fun than some worn out E46 M3. And that's before you bring costs into the equation.
I have driven quite a few E46s and never liked them - always felt the steering was a bit crap and they just feel like they are more remote than they should be. M3 very much included.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Monday 13th November 21:24
On the subject of the weight difference, you're clutching at straws to say that 10% less weight makes your car a better drive - the effect on driveability of a passenger and a full tank is going to be largely negligible. There are so many more variables, not least the fact that the M3 is better damped, making almost double the power, and has a stiffer chassis/shell.
Moreover, if you could tell the difference that 30kg of engine makes to handling in a road car, your talents are probably wasted on an internet forum. That is absolutely minuscule - and almost equivalent to removing aircon. It almost feels like you're looking at the two cars and trying to find something which paints the E36 favourably. There's nothing to say that the E36 328i is a bad car, but I can't see any objective argument that makes it better than an E46 M3.
Evo rated the E46 M3 as the best car available for £10k (or £15k) a couple of years back. The E36 328i is a decent car in its own right, but it wasn't even close to that conversation (nor was it even in the running for the "best car for £5k").
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 14th November 11:15
You cannot compare all 15-20 year old cars on a like-for-like basis as most would be largely worn out by now. Please explain how a £15k E46 M3 is more fun for you on road than a 328i which has cost £10-15k. Talking damping etc. so definitively makes no sense if I for instance have a 3 way Ohlins set up.
My car, like the OP''s is a project car so talking EVO reviews means very little. PH did have a modded E36 which I think wasn't too shabby with Nitrons etc.
As for weight, sorry but 10% is hardly insignificant. My old DC2 was about the sweet spot in terms of weight for usable 4 seater IMO and another 110 KG would have been very noticeable.
My other cars are a modified Elise and Caterham and in those you really can feel any extra mass.
Depends what you look for but I like my cars more hardcore than most which does skew my priorities.
As for the "inexperienced" jibe, I don't really see what you're getting at, other than a dig. I've owned plenty of cars beyond the ones listed in my profile (I just listed my current car when I joined), and have driven both a better E36 than the OP's and an E46 M3. I think that gives me all of the "experience" required to comment.
Anyhow, we're on the verge of derailing the OP, and detracting from the great work he's doing.
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