My Formula 27 Bike Engined Kit Car - how to blow up engines
Discussion
Small world, I saw you all parked up in Helmsley square - I'm a local.
Re BB engines, the reason they go bang is that you absolutely have to dry sump them otherwise they suffer oil starvation on one of the big end bearings - forget which one now. You really need to do the same with the ZZR engine too IIRC. The issue with becs is that the engines are not designed to take later-g so suffer oil starvation issues. You can baffle them but it can still happen as it's not a perfect solution.
The only engines that seem more resistant are the Yam and Honda <= 1000cc lumps.
Re BB engines, the reason they go bang is that you absolutely have to dry sump them otherwise they suffer oil starvation on one of the big end bearings - forget which one now. You really need to do the same with the ZZR engine too IIRC. The issue with becs is that the engines are not designed to take later-g so suffer oil starvation issues. You can baffle them but it can still happen as it's not a perfect solution.
The only engines that seem more resistant are the Yam and Honda <= 1000cc lumps.
BenWRXSEi said:
How did you get on at Cadwell? Planning on coming to Blyton? 
Not well mate, not well (see below)e46m3c said:
love it. want!
Cheers - get one! They can be a bit frustrating at times though 
rhinochopig said:
Small world, I saw you all parked up in Helmsley square - I'm a local.
Are you sure it was me? I don't think I've been to Helmsley square recently?! Another update, and more problems.
I was booked on to a Javelin Sprint at Cadwell Park. 2 days before leaving, the car wouldn't start. I presumed it was battery related as it seemed to jump start fine. I thought I'd chance it anyway as there wasn't time to get anything done on it. I still managed to get our for an afternoon to meet up with some other cars.
I've been worried about how loud it is, so I bought an exhaust baffle, but the lip around the exhaust end prevented it from fitting. I borrowed my neighbours garage and tools, and managed to grind it down so that it fitted if I needed it.
I bought a trailer so that I could tow it to events. It's a nice little Brian James Micro Max and just big enough for a seven.
So we set off for Cadwell, soon to be one of the most frustrating weekends of my life... The car towed fine with our Discovery and we got to the hotel ok on the Saturday night. The hotel experience was horrendous (I found pieces of metal in my food, wifes food was horrible, pool wasn't open and my 1.5 year old daughter managed to empty a bottle of hotel shower gel into her eyes and screamed all night. We finally got her to sleep and the fire alarm went off, waking her up again meaning we hardly slept at all... hey ho.
Got to Cadwell, jump started it, and bodged it through scrutineering - noise test up next. 105 was the limit and I was over 111 at three quarter revs. My rev counter wasn't working properly, so we 'guessed' at a lower rev limit and somehow with a nod and a wink I got through without having to fit the baffle.
So on to the parade lap.
I managed to complete the parade lap, then the car cut out. I had to be towed off the track, which wasn't a good start. Unbeknown to me, the guy who towed me fitted the tow strap to the lower wishbone, which broke the weld to the chassis. ARGH! I didn't notice this at the time...
After lots of people trying to help me get the car started again, we figured there was problems with the wiring which was stopping the battery get charge. I managed to stick a jump start unit on it and get enough charge in the battery to do two runs before it just stopped working all together. The two runs I did I noticed I was having to steer left to go straight, which wasn't good, then I found the weld...
little video of me coming off the starting line
Sometime during the day my new Longacre mirror had cracked. I don't see how I could have any more bad luck with this car let along another 7 years...
After trying to get it running again over and over again I decided to call it a day and loaded it back up on the trailer so we could make an early get away and go home.
Cue the Land Rover not starting. AARRGGHH! The battery was flat even though we hadn't had anything turned on in it all day. I went to open the bonnet so we could jump start it and THE F*ING BONNET CABLE SNAPPED!! AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!
Everyone was very helpful and we all tried to open the bonnet by various means, and then after an hour or two of trying everything we admitted defeat and called the RAC. They took 3 hours to arrive, and after trying for a long time the RAC man couldn't get the bonnet open either. So frustrating.
In the end we jacked the front of the car up, and poked a long metal rod up through the engine into the started motor. We were then able to jump start it from that. I drove 4 hours home without letting the car stop just to make sure. Our bad luck didn't stop there – the Discovery was giving black smoke on acceleration (split intercooler hose, very common probem) which got worse and worst as we got closer to home, until 10 miles from home warning lights came all over the dash.
We limped home and got a local garage to sort it the following day. If it was easy it wouldn't be fun right?
The only positive was that won my class (of 1) so at least I got a trophy to remind me of the day...
So I'm set on getting this car right.
I bought a set of original bike clocks to replace the new digi dash which just didn't work (ZZR1400 is can bus and the Koso clocks aren't compatible with it).
Meanwhile my best mate bought a kit car too. He got an MK with zetec engine for about £4,000, and drove it home 7 hours from down South without issue. I can already see his being rather more relaible than mine annoyingly..!
I got my car recovered back up to Scottish Kit Car Centre who have been doing all the work, so that they can re-wire it and sort the battery issue, fit the bike clocks, re-do the dash and centre tunnel, fit the speed sensor (without it the bike is in safe mode and limits the revs to around 10k), re-weld the wishbone and do various other little bits to make good the job.
I bought a GI Pro gear indicator with TRE which should take off the safe mode that limits the power through the first few gears (stops bikers from flipping it).
I also bought a 3.54 crown wheel and pinion from Quaife which will be fitted this week. This should make a big difference as the top speed I was seeing was about 107mph. With this I should be able to hit 125-130 theoretically.
It should be ready in the next week or two – there is a Sprint at Blyton Park at the end of the month that I really want to get to, so that's the target. I've come so far with this car that I NEED to get it working properly and get some good use out of it, and I'm sure that day will come.
So at the moment it got back up to the garge safely and is currently been worked on.
...At least mine has an engine in it though, right?!
...bloody hell, quite the weekend then! 
That's reminded me that I don't have a front towing-eye on mine. Think I'll get that sorted before Blyton!
Fingers crossed the rebuild goes OK. See you at Blyton with any luck
ETA: which bung did you go for in the end? I keep meaning to get one but most seem to be for bike cans.
That's reminded me that I don't have a front towing-eye on mine. Think I'll get that sorted before Blyton!
Fingers crossed the rebuild goes OK. See you at Blyton with any luck
ETA: which bung did you go for in the end? I keep meaning to get one but most seem to be for bike cans.
Edited by BenWRXSEi on Monday 14th September 15:50
Welcome to the world of the F27! My chassis broke the same way! you will need to get your guys to triangulate the section where the lower are mounts. You will also need to change the front wishbones for later ones or make them stronger. If you still have the rear 4 links made with polybushes you will need to change them as they will break! I will try to find some old pictures to see where I needed to strengthen the chassis. How much was the cwp by the way - as I have several in stock!
BenWRXSEi said:
Fingers crossed the rebuild goes OK. See you at Blyton with any luck
ETA: which bung did you go for in the end? I keep meaning to get one but most seem to be for bike cans.
Fingers crossed! I have a track day at Anglesey the weekend after so I need it ready ASAP! I just got an ebay £20 bung, works well and really does kill the DB's. ETA: which bung did you go for in the end? I keep meaning to get one but most seem to be for bike cans.
Edited by BenWRXSEi on Monday 14th September 15:50
sheepdip said:
Welcome to the world of the F27! My chassis broke the same way! you will need to get your guys to triangulate the section where the lower are mounts. You will also need to change the front wishbones for later ones or make them stronger. If you still have the rear 4 links made with polybushes you will need to change them as they will break! I will try to find some old pictures to see where I needed to strengthen the chassis. How much was the cwp by the way - as I have several in stock!
Thanks, we are re-enforcing the front wishbone, definitely a weak point. We recently put new polybushes all over the rear so should be fine. I think I paid about £300 inc vat and postage for the CWP from Quaife. I'm sure I could have got them cheaper but liked the idea of a new quaife item. yonex said:
Nightmare weekend, but you won 
Top marks for your tenacity!
Thanks - it was a hollow victory! Top marks for your tenacity!
Brilliant read. I really admire your perseverance with the car, and your determination to get it sorted. Lovely bit of kit too. I've enjoyed a number of big Kawasaki fours (on bikes) over the years and they have a very distinctive, hard edged, slightly angry note to them which I have always loved.
Keep up the good work!
Keep up the good work!
If you want to sprint it you have the wrong 4 link bars. They will rip the eyes out. The second generation and I use that term loosely! used a metalastic bush. I then made my own using rose joints. I also changed the panhard rod mounting as the original made the roll centre too high.
Limpet said:
Brilliant read. I really admire your perseverance with the car, and your determination to get it sorted. Lovely bit of kit too. I've enjoyed a number of big Kawasaki fours (on bikes) over the years and they have a very distinctive, hard edged, slightly angry note to them which I have always loved.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks, the ZZR1400 definitely sounds more 'throaty' than the Blackbird did. It sounds like it's going to kick my arse. Keep up the good work!
sheepdip said:
If you want to sprint it you have the wrong 4 link bars. They will rip the eyes out. The second generation and I use that term loosely! used a metalastic bush. I then made my own using rose joints. I also changed the panhard rod mounting as the original made the roll centre too high.
Really? I know someone who sprints a F27 and I believe he has the same rear set up as me. He's been doing it for years. To be honest my technical knowledge isn't great, so I don't really understand what you mean about 'panhard rod mounting' - can you explain it in laymans terms? Also, where did you get the second generation link bars? I can never find F27 parts anywhere. So little update.
I finally changed the crown wheel and pinion in the diff from a 3.89 to a 3.54. Ideally I could do with a taller ratio but this is the best I can get for the English Axle. Should move my top speed from 105 to around 125ish.
As with everything involving me and this car it wasn't straight forward...
The garage got the diff out, I collected it and and took it from near Edinburgh to a diff specialist in Gateshead who told me they could get it done quick sharp. After a few days they called me telling me that they had heated it up with an oxyacetylene torch and (in their words) "smashed it with a mallet" and they couldn't get the half shaft out. Now, I don't know much about diffs, but smashing things with sledgehammers is something I would do, and I wouldn't trust myself to disassemble a diff...
Anyway, it was now Monday, and I had to collect the car on Thursday morning to drive to Anglesey for a track day on the Friday. I couldn't cancel as not only was it my birthday, but we had booked a cottage for the weekend and we were meeting a friend and his family there to pop his trackday cherry in his newly acquired Caterham Fireblade. There was no way I was missing this.
I called every diff specialist in Northern England / Scotland, and found one in Glasgow (Top Gear Transmissions) who said they might be able to do it. Good enough for me. I was working in Glasgow, but hightailed it straight down to Gateshead, picked up my diff from the pikies, and drive it straight back to Glasgow to drop it off. I spent the night crossing my fingers, and sure enough the following day they phoned to say it was done. They are awesome and I would highly recommend them. I collected the diff at 4pm, and drove straight across Scotland to drop it off at the Kit Car garage (Andy very kindly stayed behind until I arrived at 6pm). My Panamera now has the distinct smell of diff ingrained in it...
To cut a long story short, they spent the next 2 days furiously working on the car getting all the electrical issues sorted, welding up the wishbone that had failed at Cadwell, and getting the bike clocks working. We also put in a larger battery, wired the water pump so that it's on all the time, and put a switch for the fan so I can make doubly sure it doesn't overheat.
Roll on Thursday morning, and by midday it was ready. I drove from Hexham to Scottish Kit Car Centre and back to collect it (4.5 hour drive) Along the way I managed to get a speeding ticket for doing 60 mph on the A68, which is a 60 limit. Little did I know that I was only allowed to do 50 when towing, which is stupid as the Land Rover tows it without even noticing it's there... Hey Ho.
Then collected my long suffering wife and daughter and set off on the 5 hour drive to Anglesey. Almost 10 hours driving to get to a track day where I would be driving all day. Nice.
Friday morning was my birthday, so up early and got to Anglesey Circuit. I had always wanted to drive this track and it didn't disappoint. Great views and a nice layout - Gp track in the morning, Coastal in the afternoon.
This was my mates first trackday and he had recently bought a very smart Caterham Fireblade. I think some of my bad luck rubbed off on him, as for the first few hours we could't get it running (flat battery and then a stuck throttle cable)
Eventually we got it going thanks to some really helpful people, and had some fun.
There was a sprint weekend on, so lots of people were using the track day as a warm up, so there was about 25 sevens of different flavours (mostly Caterhams) which meant we had lots of fun with them on the track.
My car was faultless all day, and we racked up over 110 laps! Hopefully my luck has now turned and it's going to be all gravy from here on it.
Here's a video of my fastest lap of the day on the coastal layout (1.22) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af31sYlzajw
and a 9 second clip of it getting very sideways -
And the cars tucked up for the night at the cottage we rented for the weekend.
I finally changed the crown wheel and pinion in the diff from a 3.89 to a 3.54. Ideally I could do with a taller ratio but this is the best I can get for the English Axle. Should move my top speed from 105 to around 125ish.
As with everything involving me and this car it wasn't straight forward...
The garage got the diff out, I collected it and and took it from near Edinburgh to a diff specialist in Gateshead who told me they could get it done quick sharp. After a few days they called me telling me that they had heated it up with an oxyacetylene torch and (in their words) "smashed it with a mallet" and they couldn't get the half shaft out. Now, I don't know much about diffs, but smashing things with sledgehammers is something I would do, and I wouldn't trust myself to disassemble a diff...
Anyway, it was now Monday, and I had to collect the car on Thursday morning to drive to Anglesey for a track day on the Friday. I couldn't cancel as not only was it my birthday, but we had booked a cottage for the weekend and we were meeting a friend and his family there to pop his trackday cherry in his newly acquired Caterham Fireblade. There was no way I was missing this.
I called every diff specialist in Northern England / Scotland, and found one in Glasgow (Top Gear Transmissions) who said they might be able to do it. Good enough for me. I was working in Glasgow, but hightailed it straight down to Gateshead, picked up my diff from the pikies, and drive it straight back to Glasgow to drop it off. I spent the night crossing my fingers, and sure enough the following day they phoned to say it was done. They are awesome and I would highly recommend them. I collected the diff at 4pm, and drove straight across Scotland to drop it off at the Kit Car garage (Andy very kindly stayed behind until I arrived at 6pm). My Panamera now has the distinct smell of diff ingrained in it...
To cut a long story short, they spent the next 2 days furiously working on the car getting all the electrical issues sorted, welding up the wishbone that had failed at Cadwell, and getting the bike clocks working. We also put in a larger battery, wired the water pump so that it's on all the time, and put a switch for the fan so I can make doubly sure it doesn't overheat.
Roll on Thursday morning, and by midday it was ready. I drove from Hexham to Scottish Kit Car Centre and back to collect it (4.5 hour drive) Along the way I managed to get a speeding ticket for doing 60 mph on the A68, which is a 60 limit. Little did I know that I was only allowed to do 50 when towing, which is stupid as the Land Rover tows it without even noticing it's there... Hey Ho.
Then collected my long suffering wife and daughter and set off on the 5 hour drive to Anglesey. Almost 10 hours driving to get to a track day where I would be driving all day. Nice.
Friday morning was my birthday, so up early and got to Anglesey Circuit. I had always wanted to drive this track and it didn't disappoint. Great views and a nice layout - Gp track in the morning, Coastal in the afternoon.
This was my mates first trackday and he had recently bought a very smart Caterham Fireblade. I think some of my bad luck rubbed off on him, as for the first few hours we could't get it running (flat battery and then a stuck throttle cable)
Eventually we got it going thanks to some really helpful people, and had some fun.
There was a sprint weekend on, so lots of people were using the track day as a warm up, so there was about 25 sevens of different flavours (mostly Caterhams) which meant we had lots of fun with them on the track.
My car was faultless all day, and we racked up over 110 laps! Hopefully my luck has now turned and it's going to be all gravy from here on it.
Here's a video of my fastest lap of the day on the coastal layout (1.22) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af31sYlzajw
and a 9 second clip of it getting very sideways -
And the cars tucked up for the night at the cottage we rented for the weekend.
Edited by ol on Monday 12th October 23:29
There were also 3 new 911 GT3's at the trackday. Porsche GT3 / GT3RS are my some of my all time favourite cars, so I couldn't resist having a play. This was in the morning before I was too confident with the car and track. I'd like to fit a set of slicks and go again for round two...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO7d5KnHYC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO7d5KnHYC4
Yesterday I took it out for a jaunt on the roads with my friend who bought the MK Indy mentioned earlier in the thread. He hadn't really been out in his much and fancied a drive. We took in a great route from Hexham up to Kielder forrest, through the boarders to Jedburgh, then back down the A68. Great roads and scenery but it rained a little on the way back.
My car wasn't sounding as silky smooth as before, and I noticed that the nuts had come off the exhaust manifold mount. Something I'll sort out ASAP.
On the way home I met my wife who was out in my Panamera Turbo. We had a little play, and they are dead level from 15mph right up to about 65 where the Panamera then walks away from it (as would be expected). Not bad considering the Panamera is 500bhp, 4WD and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds.
Also, the garage that I have been building for it (for the past year) is almost finished, and while I normally store it at a neighbours while the building work is going on, I couldn't resist giving it it's first night in the garage. Satisfying. (It was washed the following morning)
My car wasn't sounding as silky smooth as before, and I noticed that the nuts had come off the exhaust manifold mount. Something I'll sort out ASAP.
On the way home I met my wife who was out in my Panamera Turbo. We had a little play, and they are dead level from 15mph right up to about 65 where the Panamera then walks away from it (as would be expected). Not bad considering the Panamera is 500bhp, 4WD and 0-60 in 3.8 seconds.
Also, the garage that I have been building for it (for the past year) is almost finished, and while I normally store it at a neighbours while the building work is going on, I couldn't resist giving it it's first night in the garage. Satisfying. (It was washed the following morning)
Edited by ol on Monday 12th October 23:22
TvrJohn said:
Great post, really enjoyed reading that
Thanks, it's been an adventure, but hopefully will just be boring and reliable from now on BenWRXSEi said:
Great stuff - glad to hear it's back on track (in both senses!)
Cheers, are you doing the last round at Cadwell? I don't think I'm going to bother - I'm planning to do a few more track days to get the car dialled in then do a full seasons sprinting next year (but probably not the Javelin one)Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff