Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 V6
Discussion
davebem said:
^ thanks, the wiring loom is the only thing bothering me. Im hoping the body wiring loom for the donor is compatable with the engine loom for the V6. I havnt got behind the dash yet to see whats different. Despite my own advice earlier in this thread the donor is a CF2 and my V6 is a CF3. Theres also a couple of other differences, the CF3s appear to have a different key system, they also have a fuel cut off switch linked to fuel pump, fly-by wire throttle and different ecu location. I guess ill need to transfer the dash clocks, lock barrels and central locking module too.
I wish you good luck with the wiring loom...I'd put some boards down on the floor to ensure a smooth surface, pick the front of the car up with the crane and use that to wheel it out. Scrap man will be able to pick it up without wheels if you explain the situaton.
For info, my Dad manufactured a handy way of getting the engines in and out using wheels, pic in this thread;
http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID...
The engine is now out, didnt need a hoist in the end, I just supported the front on various stands and blocks of wood, then borrowed a pallet truck and slid the engine along with the subframe and suspension all forward.
I also used the pallet truck to move the body out of the garage and onto my drive. It only fell off once.
While my garage was free, I had to replace the front wishbones on my wifes 500, why cant the Italians ever get suspension bushes right?
...couldnt help but think that this would make a much more interesting project!
Engine and car meet for first time:
Incase you ever wandered what the back of a Alfa v6 looks like
I think I should have marked the position the rack was to the steering column?
I also used the pallet truck to move the body out of the garage and onto my drive. It only fell off once.
While my garage was free, I had to replace the front wishbones on my wifes 500, why cant the Italians ever get suspension bushes right?
...couldnt help but think that this would make a much more interesting project!
Engine and car meet for first time:
Incase you ever wandered what the back of a Alfa v6 looks like
I think I should have marked the position the rack was to the steering column?
Neither the rack or the column are "keyed" on the 156, only the 147 / GT. So if the wheel is in the wrong position all you have to do is take it off and reposition it. As it's a T reg it won't have stability control which means you also won't have to reset the steering angle sensor - It doesn't have one.
I'd fit the rack first BTW. Before anything else.
I'd fit the rack first BTW. Before anything else.
That photo is all wrong - looks like you are trying to stuff a V6 into the back of a 500 - which would be highly amusing.
While you have the engine out - replace both front brake lines with cunifer. It is MUCH easier with the engine out, and they are known failure points.
Wiring - I've never had the dash out of a 156 - but switching between CF2 and 3 will mean all the ECU wiring is in the wrong place - I suspect you'll need to pull the complete loom out of the car. If you're getting into floorpans you'll be stripping the interior anyway, so not a big deal!
While you have the engine out - replace both front brake lines with cunifer. It is MUCH easier with the engine out, and they are known failure points.
Wiring - I've never had the dash out of a 156 - but switching between CF2 and 3 will mean all the ECU wiring is in the wrong place - I suspect you'll need to pull the complete loom out of the car. If you're getting into floorpans you'll be stripping the interior anyway, so not a big deal!
Zombie said:
Neither the rack or the column are "keyed" on the 156, only the 147 / GT. So if the wheel is in the wrong position all you have to do is take it off and reposition it. As it's a T reg it won't have stability control which means you also won't have to reset the steering angle sensor - It doesn't have one.
I'd fit the rack first BTW. Before anything else.
Thanks Ill make a note of that. I think I may have to replace the whole loom, Ive started labelling the connectors, I havnt had the dash off yet to see if the engine loom is separate to the body loom. The ecu's are in a different position, the V6 has a bosch one on the top plenum. The twinnys doesnt appear to be in the engine bay, havnt found it yet!...I'd fit the rack first BTW. Before anything else.
The twinny has knackered exhaust, suspension, running gear and radiator, but the engine is is very strong and runs as sweet as a nut, its really growing on me, hadnt counted on that!! Im almost at a dilema, but I checked around and nobody really wants the 2.5 V6 engine on its own as the 3.0 or 3.2 is more desirable. Ive looked at loads of 2.5 156s for sale and they are all knackered, such a shame, a 2.5 with a sunroof and all the extras the twinny has is the ultimate 156 for me. I think id have a better chance of selling a Twinny engine on its own, its a very strong one, only on 50k.
PS good point about the brake lines, I know they rust where they bend round the bottom of the side members, it doesnt help that the scuttle panel drainage channels drip water on them all day long! Luckily the braking systems between the 2 cars are identical.
Edited by davebem on Sunday 5th February 18:25
davebem said:
I think id have a better chance of selling a Twinny engine on its own, its a very strong one, only on 50k.
A Strong 2.0 twinny should be a popular engine on the second hand market, they have tuning options available for racing, and for something like a 147 track car, it really is the best option.Edited by davebem on Sunday 5th February 18:25
Second hand V6s cost very little because they don't break - I know my local specialist scrapped a load of s/h 2.5s becuase they were just taking up space with almost zero chance of selling them.
Twinnys do break (if the oil burning is not monitored), hence there is a ready market for t/s engines.
Have you worked out the registration process for the car? Assume it will be the t/s registration with a change of engine.... Not sure how reshelling works?!
Twinnys do break (if the oil burning is not monitored), hence there is a ready market for t/s engines.
Have you worked out the registration process for the car? Assume it will be the t/s registration with a change of engine.... Not sure how reshelling works?!
rxe said:
Second hand V6s cost very little because they don't break - I know my local specialist scrapped a load of s/h 2.5s becuase they were just taking up space with almost zero chance of selling them.
I need to keep an eye on that then, even if i have nothing realistic to put a 2.5 into, i still want that engine coffee table, and what better then a busso?I think Ive figured out the wiring after spending nearly all day wresting with the dash. The 156 has an impressive amount of sound deadening! Theres 3 or 4 different looms:
The engine bay loom comes in through the bulkhead near the brake master cylinder, most of the connections go to the fusebox, theres also a couple of connections to the dash(ignition) and a branch over to the other side for something.
There is a seperate body loom which goes down the drivers side, all around the rear and back round the other side which serves all the doors, interior lighting and rear lights.
The dash has its own loom and theres an airbag ecu and loom too.
They all intersect into the fusebox on the drivers side. Hopefully the Twinny should have the same setup?
The engine bay loom comes in through the bulkhead near the brake master cylinder, most of the connections go to the fusebox, theres also a couple of connections to the dash(ignition) and a branch over to the other side for something.
There is a seperate body loom which goes down the drivers side, all around the rear and back round the other side which serves all the doors, interior lighting and rear lights.
The dash has its own loom and theres an airbag ecu and loom too.
They all intersect into the fusebox on the drivers side. Hopefully the Twinny should have the same setup?
It's been a while since I've had the dash out of a t-spark so I can't help much. However, there is a load of pics (of a CF3 T/S loom) on my Class E race car build thread;
http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID...
http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID...
Edited by Zombie on Saturday 18th February 21:07
Alfa's have a way of making you spend irrational amounts of time and money giving them the attention they crave! I've had a few 156 V6's, my current 156 V6 is sulking on the drive waiting for summer. Shame they are now so seldom seen on the roads. I believe they are now on the verge of being sought after as one of the last Alfa's to wear a Busso V6. I take my hat off to your dedication, what an enjoyable read so far!
Arese1973 said:
Alfa's have a way of making you spend irrational amounts of time and money giving them the attention they crave! I've had a few 156 V6's, my current 156 V6 is sulking on the drive waiting for summer. Shame they are now so seldom seen on the roads. I believe they are now on the verge of being sought after as one of the last Alfa's to wear a Busso V6. I take my hat off to your dedication, what an enjoyable read so far!
You're making me feel bad for doing 600+ miles in my SW V6 this weekend! Ive finally started to make progress after a busy winter/spring (working on my house).
Ive removed the twinspark engine. Ive also bought some bargain Eibach springs, some new track rod ends and (another) new coolant bottle. Im also trying to justify or offset somewhere the funds for some wizard catless manifolds, and the downpipes need replacing too really to do a proper job.
The twinny will be strapped to the pallet and will be going up for sale soon. Im probably going to sell the red leather too, as the tan has really grown on me!
Before the V6 is fitted, the paint in the engine bay has blistered on the top of the side members and slam panel causing surface rust....Ive not seen this before on a 156, Im currently in the process of rubbing it down, applying a zinc undercoat and respraying.
Other engine bay preperation involves:
- Rust proofing bottom of side members and potentially check if any repairs needed.
- Fitting the V6 air con pipes and coolant pipes.
- Fitting the bracket for the V6 vacuum and fuel vapour pipes.
- I need to fit a heatshield on the bulkhead to protect the loom from the V6 rear bank manifold.
- Fit the V6 fuel vapour canister (the V6 one has some sort of valve on it, the twinnes doesnt).
- Fit the V6 engine bay loom.
Unfortunately the twinny loom is routed differently on the passenger side and goes under the abs pump, through one of the bulkhead to shock tower strut supports, I havnt figured out how they did this in the factory or how Im going to remove it without cutting it!!
Ive removed the twinspark engine. Ive also bought some bargain Eibach springs, some new track rod ends and (another) new coolant bottle. Im also trying to justify or offset somewhere the funds for some wizard catless manifolds, and the downpipes need replacing too really to do a proper job.
The twinny will be strapped to the pallet and will be going up for sale soon. Im probably going to sell the red leather too, as the tan has really grown on me!
Before the V6 is fitted, the paint in the engine bay has blistered on the top of the side members and slam panel causing surface rust....Ive not seen this before on a 156, Im currently in the process of rubbing it down, applying a zinc undercoat and respraying.
Other engine bay preperation involves:
- Rust proofing bottom of side members and potentially check if any repairs needed.
- Fitting the V6 air con pipes and coolant pipes.
- Fitting the bracket for the V6 vacuum and fuel vapour pipes.
- I need to fit a heatshield on the bulkhead to protect the loom from the V6 rear bank manifold.
- Fit the V6 fuel vapour canister (the V6 one has some sort of valve on it, the twinnes doesnt).
- Fit the V6 engine bay loom.
Unfortunately the twinny loom is routed differently on the passenger side and goes under the abs pump, through one of the bulkhead to shock tower strut supports, I havnt figured out how they did this in the factory or how Im going to remove it without cutting it!!
Rust update: One of the main problems with the 156 is rust. The outer body panels were galvanised (except maybe the roof) and the lower body and underfloor had a thick layer of underseal applied (although the quality of application of this varies through different years). However the bodyshells themselves had poor preperation and some of the methods used in the factory are flawed (which I will come onto in another post when I get to the rear floor pans), in certain areas the underseal doesnt take to the body and water gets behind it and it starts rusting away and peeling.
My original V6 didnt have any issues, for some reason the 51 plate cars Ive seen are the best, if you are looking for a 156 go for the late 2001 cars. Most of the others including later cars have issues. After inspection of the front, the sills, jacking points, and front floor pans are fine, including the wing bottoms, however the bottoms of the side members look like I have just got to them in time.
Theres heavy suface rust, Ive chopped off the underseal until clean metal is found, I will then apply some bilthamber rust converter and re-apply some seal. Im quite lucky because Ive seen a few go in this area and normally the brackets holding the abs wires end up falling off, but these are still solid.
A plus point is the brake lines are mint! Another common issue on the older cars.
Finally the front wing/horn and cooler mounts were badly corroded, I already had a newish one on my original V6 (although a bit twisted from the crash, but got it straigtened out), I sourced the other side cheaply from the German ebay.
My original V6 didnt have any issues, for some reason the 51 plate cars Ive seen are the best, if you are looking for a 156 go for the late 2001 cars. Most of the others including later cars have issues. After inspection of the front, the sills, jacking points, and front floor pans are fine, including the wing bottoms, however the bottoms of the side members look like I have just got to them in time.
Theres heavy suface rust, Ive chopped off the underseal until clean metal is found, I will then apply some bilthamber rust converter and re-apply some seal. Im quite lucky because Ive seen a few go in this area and normally the brackets holding the abs wires end up falling off, but these are still solid.
A plus point is the brake lines are mint! Another common issue on the older cars.
Finally the front wing/horn and cooler mounts were badly corroded, I already had a newish one on my original V6 (although a bit twisted from the crash, but got it straigtened out), I sourced the other side cheaply from the German ebay.
Over the summer Ive been spending a night or 2 each week finishing the engine bay, Ive been enjoying this part! Everything has been cleaned, resprayed and any rusty bolts replaced.
During
After
Before and after
I thought 156s all had the same brake setup...I was wrong. The 2.4 and 2.5. have a bigger master cylinder with shorter stroke pedal, and the CF3 cars have a different ABS pump, so I swapped all this from the crashed car, everything unbolted nice a cleanly and it was very straight forward. The V6 also has a bigger (metal) clutch master cylinder and some other electrical gubbins on the pedal assembly so that all went across too. The pipework and aircon bits and peices were re-attached, then the V6 engine wiring loom was fitted and routed. I also made a heat shield above the engine where the loom routes through it across the bulkhead.
I restored the airbox, with new screws/bolts and O ring. I had to drill the old bolts out and glue it in some places, it should hold.
Moving onto the engine I removed the heat exchanger on the back of the engine that was pretty gunked up, earlier in this thread I wanted to replace this with the GTA setup. Im not convinced the exchanger setup does very good job as its in the hottest part of the engine bay and its possible this was the cause of the small amount of oil that had got into the coolant. Now its off I decided to fit the readily available popular Mocal thermostat sandwich plate and cooler, the parts for a whole kit is actually cheaper than Alfa sell the heat exchanger for (the standard Alfa part is also no longer available).
Note the curious small pipe made in blighty.
I went for a 16 row narrow cooler, and added a spacer so the take off plate clears the 2.5 exchanger housing.
Test fitting,I need to make sure the pipes clear the driveshaft, manifold heatshield and dont get in the way of oil filter changes! Then they will route under the engine along with the power steering pipes to the front somewhere.
During
After
Before and after
I thought 156s all had the same brake setup...I was wrong. The 2.4 and 2.5. have a bigger master cylinder with shorter stroke pedal, and the CF3 cars have a different ABS pump, so I swapped all this from the crashed car, everything unbolted nice a cleanly and it was very straight forward. The V6 also has a bigger (metal) clutch master cylinder and some other electrical gubbins on the pedal assembly so that all went across too. The pipework and aircon bits and peices were re-attached, then the V6 engine wiring loom was fitted and routed. I also made a heat shield above the engine where the loom routes through it across the bulkhead.
I restored the airbox, with new screws/bolts and O ring. I had to drill the old bolts out and glue it in some places, it should hold.
Moving onto the engine I removed the heat exchanger on the back of the engine that was pretty gunked up, earlier in this thread I wanted to replace this with the GTA setup. Im not convinced the exchanger setup does very good job as its in the hottest part of the engine bay and its possible this was the cause of the small amount of oil that had got into the coolant. Now its off I decided to fit the readily available popular Mocal thermostat sandwich plate and cooler, the parts for a whole kit is actually cheaper than Alfa sell the heat exchanger for (the standard Alfa part is also no longer available).
Note the curious small pipe made in blighty.
I went for a 16 row narrow cooler, and added a spacer so the take off plate clears the 2.5 exchanger housing.
Test fitting,I need to make sure the pipes clear the driveshaft, manifold heatshield and dont get in the way of oil filter changes! Then they will route under the engine along with the power steering pipes to the front somewhere.
Make sure you can get the oil filter out with all the hoses in place and the engine in the car. The GTA oil change is a bit of a fiddle.
Engine bay looks fantastic, you could could come and do a few of mine if you ever get bored....!
That rust - you need to fill the inside of that section with dinitrol or similar. See my GTA thread on Alfaowner. It all starts from the inside....
Engine bay looks fantastic, you could could come and do a few of mine if you ever get bored....!
That rust - you need to fill the inside of that section with dinitrol or similar. See my GTA thread on Alfaowner. It all starts from the inside....
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