Alfa Romeo 164 Twinspark Super

[Spinakerr]

Thanks for your messages, I'm glad the 164 is of interest to others - I haven't had too many people recount horror stories of ownership, just that parts availability wasn't very good even when new. Plenty of work left to do this year, I think these updates will increase as I might aim to take it on a European tour instead of our indestructible Rover 75 Tourer.

JMF894 said:

You realise you can NEVER sell it now don't you?

At a subconscious level it's recalcitrant resistance to improvements, and the absence of 'easy fixes' for maintenance, is what keeps me going.

Chris-34nmw said:

I have a twin spark into my 105 GTV and converted it to jenveys and an emerald so I have a bag full of injection bits and a spare couple of coils if you can make use of them for spares. Free to a home as good as this!

Also for an alternator in my 105 I use a converted Suzuki Swift item - high output and lighter - Alfaholics sell a kit. Not sure that's an option for you if you're going the strictly stock route.

Happen to have a spare set of forged internals for one of these motors on eBay at present too.

Thanks Chris - for the moment the engine is in good health and I need to put some hours into the suspension, gearbox and brakes to get everything mechanically healthy. Then I'll get back to the engine, but happy to talk over PM about this and other experiences with the twinspark 8V.

Firstly, MOT was passed on Friday with no extra expense, though the handbrake will need some further maintenance as it was ok'd by a raised eyebrow rather than full effectiveness. The tester apparently commented on 'better than new' emissions levels, so I allowed myself a smile after all the injector/fuel line/intake work last year.

Here is is a miserable photo of the 24v V6 Sprint. Bodywork will need some serious effort, so I wish the new owner well:

20170203_193748_zpsvskhoyfo by James Vincent, on Flickr

Early candidate for 'worst engine photo of 2017':
20170203_193813_zpsxywxhzdu by James Vincent, on Flickr

My mechanic was also throwing out some old parts, and gifted me a new downpipe. Very nice of him, and I will likely mate this to a stainless system once my immediate mechanical concerns are dealt with.

20170203_200614_zps0hvclxhb by James Vincent, on Flickr

Then it was on to Somerset in the rain and wind, heated seat and new stereo drowning out both the inclement environment and my muttered swearings at the M3 closures.

This morning my mother volunteered the garage that work on her Puma to help press out the engine mount bushes.

99t said:

In my experience, that sort of steel sleeved bush in an alloy part will need quite an extreme amount of force to remove intact - it was a tight interference fit when new and now corrosion between the alloy and steel has had some time to take effect, it will be well and truly in there!

How much work would it be to remove the alloy "arm" from the engine and get it pressed out?

Yes, thank you for this and the other suggestions. Bolts out:

20170204_101847_zpsbytina8m by James Vincent, on Flickr

Alloy mount off:
20170204_102119_zpsnaqj4zis by James Vincent, on Flickr

The helpful press:
20170204_102454_zpsvtqghed7 by James Vincent, on Flickr

The steel-sleeved larger bush was extracted without too much trouble, but as expected the corroded smaller bush in the alloy arm would not budge. Heads we scratches, various chemicals were deployed. Ultimately, working it from each side work, but it cracked the alloy arm:

20170204_103558_zpsjcfckrtw by James Vincent, on Flickr

Very frustrating, but the garage were very helpful and have thrown in some chemical metal and tried not to take anything for their time - H&M Motors in Somerton - thank you!

Time thus far for the entire operation - about 20 minutes.
20170204_105246_zpsiknoo0pq by James Vincent, on Flickr

Simply reassemble, right? Of course not. The wider 'shoulders' of the new bushes just made things...difficult. At this stage I was in the above garage's parking space, nearing their closure time and having to borrow their tools, with my mother as the only help. Luckily she took to the socket set and spanners with gusto. The engine needed to be 'rocked' forward to line up some bolts, and the arm was wound in and out to get items in place. Being a Londoner, I expected the garage owners to reclaim their tools and tow me off the premises, but fortunately my faith in humanity (well, Somerset) was restored as all the mechanics came out to help over the next 30 minutes, and it all finally went back together.

20170204_120707_zps3adv5yyz by James Vincent, on Flickr

I don't look forward to doing that again when I source a new alloy arm. Careful driving and potholes will be given an even wider berth for the time being.

Next up - new brake lines, discs, pads and brake cylinders. A complete refresh for safety - I've chanced it for too long and want to stop a little less alarmingly. Even with a full refresh I'm sure the handbrake will still be truculent.

Edited by Spinakerr on Sunday 16th July 16:20

[Twoshoe]

Fantastic, heart-warming thread! Just love the way the OP lets a car that to most (even PH-ers) is not particularly remarkable, gradually creep under his skin almost to the point of obsession – maximum respect, sir, and this is surely PH-ing at its best. To echo sentiments of a previous poster, I’d also have a pint with you any day.

I can’t remember the last time I saw a 164 on the road. However, I did see a Cloverleaf Q4 at a classic car show in Martock, Somerset, last summer – surely the rarest of all, 4-wheel drive, 6 speed box and lhd only. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the only one in the UK. Anyway, I digress.

I have had 5 164s over the years, one TS similar to the OP’s (although pre-facelift), one 12v V6 Lusso, apparently previously owned by Alfa UK, reg G164 MKR (164 MaKeR, geddit?), fully loaded (even had leccy REAR seats!!) and 3 24v 3.0s (never quite managed to get a Cloverleaf though). I totalled about 250,000 miles in them and, although they all had various ‘eccentricities’, I only ever got stranded once, due to a failed battery (German ironically). Would really love to have another (and this article isn’t helping in damping down the idea!!), but I currently have a W124 Merc of similar age to the OP’s 164 which occupies an inordinate amount of my time, and beloved would not be pleased if I added to my collection.

Re small difficult-to-get-hold-of parts, might not a solution be to reproduce them using a 3D printer? I have to state here and now that I know very little about them, and of course it won’t do for parts that need to be metal for obvious reasons, but if you know the dimensions, I think you can just feed them into the program and, as they say in Viz top tips, hey presto – new part! Again, sorry, I might be talking nonsense here, or it might be very expensive or something, I just don’t know.

Again, big respect to the OP, really interesting thread; I shall continue to read with interest – can’t believe I haven’t noticed it until now.

[rxe]

Excellent progress, and well done on making it to the dizzy heights of "thread of the week" or whatever it is called.

When I saw that Sprint, I wondered how on earth it would fit - the one I had in the late 80s was a boxer, and there's no way you'd stuff a v6 in without huge amounts of chassis welding - but of course they made "normal" 4 cylinder versions towards the end. One day I'm going to find a Nissan Cherry Europa and stuff a quad cam boxer in it - would make a cracking sleeper.

Was the idle fix the injectors or the rubber? Across 7 Alfas, I've never had a sniff of a problem with injectors, loads of problems with rubber bits though....!

I suspect that crack will be fine for quite some time - certainly allowing you to get the right part at your leisure, and replacing it will be a lot easier at home with less pressure. Heat normally works on ally bits like that - MAPP or oxy. Burn the bush out, get it nice and warm over a few cycles. Probably safest to burn the bush and weaken the shell with a hacksaw.

I must update my GTA thread - progress has been made, mechanically it is now spot on, we are nearing the wallet busting session in the body shop. I've also picked up a 10V diesel 156 sport wagon for £380, which I have utterly fallen in love with.

Edited by rxe on Sunday 5th February 11:10

[freeform]

A true labour of love which I have really reading.

In the '90s, Alfa dealers we going bust or swapping franchises, then Fiat decided all Alfa dealers would be Fiat agents, there were hoards of surplus Alfa spares at national Alfa day. It couldn't last and I expect this is in part why the stuff is so scarce now.

About 1993, post Fiat takeover, I decided it was my last chance to own a 'real Alfa' and bought a 1988 75 3.0 V6. I loved it dearly, lavished it with attention (not this much attention though), and was heart broken when it was rear-ended by a Frenchman in a Talbot Alpine at Tarbes, South of France.

Back home, there were few replacement 75s about so I bought a 1989 164 V6. It was a lovely car, handled very well for a large front-wheel-driver and survived the following year's French road trip.

My brother always liked it so when he spotted another 1991 75 - a 3.0 Green Cloverleaf - which I bought, he took the 164. Very sadly, he met a Range Rover head on in a country lane and that was the end of it.

The Green Cloverleaf was subsequently totalled, on the A3 at Tolworth, by having a Fiat Strada pushed into its back!

That was the end of Alfas for me, for a while, but I do still have a garage full of 75 spares...

Best wishes for your ongoing rolling restoration.

Edited by freeform on Sunday 5th February 20:34

[helix402]

Love the idea of a Cherry Europe with the 1.7 16v! Good work on the 164.

[Spinakerr]

Whilst I usually check the PH frontpage with metronomic regularity in the evening, due to recent 164-propelled travels I completely missed Reader's Car Of The Week. Thank you to the PH team and to everyone for their messages & advice - great to read through the Alfa Experiences.

Twoshoe said:

I can’t remember the last time I saw a 164 on the road. However, I did see a Cloverleaf Q4 at a classic car show in Martock, Somerset, last summer – surely the rarest of all, 4-wheel drive, 6 speed box and lhd only. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the only one in the UK. Anyway, I digress.

Yes that Q4 is well-known, and I think it was painted/restored at an Alfa-sympathiser in Martock who I have yet to uncover. I'm very keen to get a 6 speed 166 TS box into mine, but alas have not found anyone to take on the project - anyone know somebody with a gleam in their eye for such an endeavour? Personal 3D printers might be a way off, but I can see owner's clubs buying them and issuing parts in the near future for members to keep cars on the road. Let's hope!

rxe said:

When I saw that Sprint, I wondered how on earth it would fit - the one I had in the late 80s was a boxer, and there's no way you'd stuff a v6 in without huge amounts of chassis welding - but of course they made "normal" 4 cylinder versions towards the end. One day I'm going to find a Nissan Cherry Europa and stuff a quad cam boxer in it - would make a cracking sleeper.

Was the idle fix the injectors or the rubber? Across 7 Alfas, I've never had a sniff of a problem with injectors, loads of problems with rubber bits though....!

I suspect that crack will be fine for quite some time - certainly allowing you to get the right part at your leisure, and replacing it will be a lot easier at home with less pressure. Heat normally works on ally bits like that - MAPP or oxy. Burn the bush out, get it nice and warm over a few cycles. Probably safest to burn the bush and weaken the shell with a hacksaw.

I must update my GTA thread - progress has been made, mechanically it is now spot on, we are nearing the wallet busting session in the body shop. I've also picked up a 10V diesel 156 sport wagon for £380, which I have utterly fallen in love with.

The sprint has some 'girders' underneath, but really the whole project needs stripping back and reassembling with some time, money and careful thought. Not one for me at present.

I suspect the idle gremlin was a combination of items, all tired/loose/out of kilter. If I send the injectors away for refurbishment that would tell me for sure, but for the moment I'm enjoying smooth power delivery and over 30mpg.

I know of a few 164s that have their alloy 'arm in good nick so will acquire one and patiently saw it out. Being on a garage's forecourt expedited a solution, next time I will take my time. Likely with the aforementioned pint in a pub somewhere. Do add the GTA thread, that car must be healthy now! £380 for a sport wagon is also a bargain. I doubt my girlfriend will ever part from her Rover 75 Tourer, but if she did that would be on the list.

freeform said:

Back home, there were few replacement 75s about so I bought a 1989 164 V6. It was a lovely car, handled very well for a large front-wheel-driver and survived the following year's French road trip.

Good, so it can be done - this car needs to tour Europe this year. That's the goal.

Right, back to discs, brake pipes, gearboxes and suspension items. It never ends...

[Ocellia]

What an uplifting string! But puts my 'clean and forget' ownership of a (similar looking?) Citroen XM 3 litre car to shame!
Then again, at 42K miles and full service history, it-luckily!! - doesn't yet need such intense attention.
Great write up!

[freeform]

Spinakerr said:

freeform said:

Back home, there were few replacement 75s about so I bought a 1989 164 V6. It was a lovely car, handled very well for a large front-wheel-driver and survived the following year's French road trip.

Good, so it can be done - this car needs to tour Europe this year. That's the goal.

Mine was just six years old at the time

[MJK 24]

rxe said:

Excellent progress, and well done on making it to the dizzy heights of "thread of the week" or whatever it is called.

When I saw that Sprint, I wondered how on earth it would fit - the one I had in the late 80s was a boxer, and there's no way you'd stuff a v6 in without huge amounts of chassis welding - but of course they made "normal" 4 cylinder versions towards the end.

Edited by rxe on Sunday 5th February 11:10

The Alfasud, Sprint and 33 always had a boxer engine in. They never had an inline 4 cylinder.

The only exception being the 33 diesel which had an inline 3 cylinder.

[Spinakerr]

Nano-update while some bigger items are shipped/haggles/crafted by albinos in a parallel Alfa dimension:

The X1/9 oil filler cap looked ok, but soon started to corrode and lose its seal after a few months. Luck afforded me a genuine fiat item from 1996, still in its packaging. Old and new:

20170219_184109_zpsytxr7x00 by James Vincent, on Flickr

And mounted, with a much more convincing tightness:

20170219_184303_zpsg55ikf1c by James Vincent, on Flickr

Phew.

Edited by Spinakerr on Sunday 16th July 18:24

[Spinakerr]

The 164 hadn't had an oil change in a while, and the first instance was a swearworthy cocktail of rusted-on filters, troublesome sump plugs (with a 12mm Allen socket set) and Bovril purging.

Fortunately, my prep last time brought it down to a few minutes. I even sprayed the filter the night before.

Engine warmed, gentle jacked up and allen socket removal:

20170305_131350_zps7pxgyhqv by James Vincent, on Flickr

FRAM 9105 off:

20170305_133137_zpsawbefie2 by James Vincent, on Flickr

New FRAM 9105 on, and some proper oil for the first time ever on this machine:

20170305_133445_zpsvoleqaz7 by James Vincent, on Flickr

This car always needs a top up (more in than out, inexplicably, ciao etc), so I did another 1/2 litre after the first drive.

Then off to Somerset in today's glorious sun. London background:
20170305_160547_zpsgj1m2nyl by James Vincent, on Flickr

Fortunately, a clear A303:
20170325_162220_zps2scfvrut by James Vincent, on Flickr

Didn't miss a beat.

Edited by Spinakerr on Sunday 16th July 19:40

[V8Taxi]

Superb thread, enjoyed reading. Keep it coming.

[Spinakerr]

Thanks - it's becoming pleasureable to drive, and parts have started arriving for more serious work this Spring.

I say didn't miss a beat, but actually the seat belt casing tryptiched itself, so I raided the parent's solvent cupboard and let it cure overnight.

20170325_220736_zpsiuc5xfcu by James Vincent, on Flickr

Almost:

20170326_105052_zpssfw4dv06 by James Vincent, on Flickr

I give it a week:

20170326_105651_zpscuc4b0wm by James Vincent, on Flickr

As it's Mother's Day, I did the only decent thing - fix some issues with a door card.

The leatherette trim clips had been dislodged over the years and I neglected to reaffix them properly when fixing both the tweeter and door release cable. It clattered and flapped and needed to be fixed:

20170326_105656_zpsx9en9nod by James Vincent, on Flickr

20170326_105714_zpsu59ab2kv by James Vincent, on Flickr

Some door cards are easy, some area horror. I would say the 164 rates as 'bothersome', and requires either a support or another pair of hands for safe removal. Various allen bolts in the cubby hole, behind the handle and behind the electric window switch:

20170326_110310_zpsrl7oq9v1 by James Vincent, on Flickr

Plus screws along the bottom, behind the door edge light, and the vent, and anywhere a screw might be:

20170326_110520_zpsnpmyuft3 by James Vincent, on Flickr

Then it was a case of pull outward to release the two yellow push-fitters, and up slightly to clear the central locking rod.

20170326_111546_zpsd5y0mfox by James Vincent, on Flickr

Not too far though, as the tweeter and door cable are still attached.

20170326_111548_zpspmjyhhwl by James Vincent, on Flickr

My luck then was rekindled as five retaining clips for the leatherette trim dropped out of the bottom, bypassing the need for some improvisation. With my dad holding the door card I reattached it as securely as possible, and hopefully it will hold for a while.

20170326_114309_zps8fxix0z5 by James Vincent, on Flickr

Of course, this all needs to come off again when I paint the speaker grill and replace the main speakers, but I now know what to do.

Edited by Spinakerr on Saturday 22 July 12:56

[Spinakerr]

Fixed another long-term issue last night - the cabin boot release switch. It had never worked, and had to be operated from the rear by a key, which is always annoying if you are trying to drop someone off at a station or some such.

The light on the switch was operating, the fuse was in place and I could hear the solenoid, so it must be at the hatch end.

Trim removed, it looked obvious:

20170326_125911_zpsfab9kk0e by James Vincent, on Flickr

20170326_130130_zpsevjhf45x by James Vincent, on Flickr

Simply reattach the arm and... nope, still didn't work. In operation it didn't pull the release far enough, due to wear, so I shortened the arm with some careful bends:

20170326_132218_zpszsoce2hj by James Vincent, on Flickr

The pushed it into the bush:

20170326_153247_zpsytbzeyiv by James Vincent, on Flickr

Finally! The last switch in the cabin that needed rectifying now works!

Edited by Spinakerr on Saturday 22 July 12:58

[Spinakerr]

The 164 came with a smattering of dents at purchase, to be expected on a London car spending most of its life on the street.

A year into my ownership, an unsightly crease appeared on the bonnet, so today I finally took the car to a dent repair specialist. Martin (aka Dentman) had a workshop about 60 seconds from my house, so I spent a happy few hours with him improving the bodywork.

The bonnet, rear and passenger door before:

20170401_135935_zpsxifqt21m by James Vincent, on Flickr

20170318_124109_zpsgtbgtrqb by James Vincent, on Flickr

20170318_123902_zpsa4yswsrn by James Vincent, on Flickr

I had seen wonders worked, but this was another level. The metal was prodded, poked, massaged and reasoned with to minimise the dents:

20170401_143021_zps6nnpp8g6 by James Vincent, on Flickr
20170401_165451_zpsmxlaibeh by James Vincent, on Flickr

Immensely satisfied with the result, and Martin kindly rectified some other minor dings around the car. The Alfa just needs a proper wash and polish to show off those Pinanfarina lines now...

Edited by Spinakerr on Monday 3rd April 19:58

Edited by Spinakerr on Saturday 22 July 13:14

[911F]

Great to see this - brings back a lot of childhood memories, my Father bought a brand new 164 T Spark Super from Alfa Romeo Baker Street in 1995. Two tone White over Grey.

It would be great if you could source the correct polished wheels it would have come with

[Spinakerr]

911F said:

Great to see this - brings back a lot of childhood memories, my Father bought a brand new 164 T Spark Super from Alfa Romeo Baker Street in 1995. Two tone White over Grey.

It would be great if you could source the correct polished wheels it would have come with

Having one from new must have been wonderful, especially in the two tone combination - do let me know if he saved any parts or manuals!

The Super wheels are very hard to find in the four bolt twinspark configuration:

http://www.automobilesreview.com/img/alfa-romeo-16...

I have lead on another set of speedlines that need to be saved, but am always on the lookout for some of the original phase 1 Zender Sports. I have no idea why I like them.

[macp]

Excellent thread really enjoyed it. Missing my 155 & 156 now though.

[Spinakerr]

In a fantastic example of 'If it isn't broken, don't fix it', the new polybush top engine mounts had made the ride too firm, with many items vibrating noisily at idle. Unnervingly, due to the 'shoulders' of the larger yellow mount, you may recall me having to wind the control arm back significantly. This resulted in a number of new clonks and groans travelling over bumps, my theory being the engine is now out of alignment and by firming up on corner the lower (original) mounts are having an issue.

Luckily, an Alfa contact sent me a new alloy arm, as the original was cracked in the rebushing experiment, so I got underway.

Bolts out:

20170401_181136_zpsomnf0htj by James Vincent, on Flickr

Here you can see how fully wound the mount was:

20170401_181538_zpsbr6yymqc by James Vincent, on Flickr

Looking at the angles, I decided to remove the troublesome shoulders before buying new mounts. Two hanksaw blades later:

20170401_184707_zpshgtdsnzk by James Vincent, on Flickr

20170401_185749_zpsylotmrxb by James Vincent, on Flickr

Alloy arm replacement with out crack of chemical metal:

20170401_190040_zpsurmbimyw by James Vincent, on Flickr

All done, with the arm now able to be wound out a bit

20170401_191959_zpsnwces6dj by James Vincent, on Flickr

This has definitely cured the idle vibrations, though clonk remain when the left front hit bumps and holes. Suspension is due a refresh after 20 years, so will keep tinkering.

Also gave it a good clean this weekend:

20170401_194509_zpsrrkdjdet by James Vincent, on Flickr

Edited by Spinakerr on Saturday 22 July 13:22

[Spinakerr]

The 164 had a proper run down to Goodwood recently - my partner was having a flying lesson so we took a fantastically scenic drive from London through the South Downs early in the morning. No traffic, sunshine aplenty and the exhaust singing joyfully through the greenery.

Obligatory Goodwood tunnel shot:
20170408_093025_zpsxullgfg8 by James Vincent, on Flickr

The new Aerodrome building, as yet unopened:
20170408_093214_zpsksvvopng by James Vincent, on Flickr

A largely deserted airfield at this time in the morning allowed for some trouble-free Spitfire photography:

20170408_093940_zpszoxav8xy by James Vincent, on Flickr

Plus seemingly empty skies to boot:

20170408_103748_zpsfw2sdirm by James Vincent, on Flickr

In the paddock I couldn't resist parking next to a fellow thoroughbred racing Italian, especially as the Jaguar/BMW/Astons started showing up:

20170408_110833_zpswykd4hw5 by James Vincent, on Flickr

This Aston was especially striking amongst those being driven:

20170408_112032_zpsautjd6qc by James Vincent, on Flickr

Just time for some Art Deco posing to pretend we are Miami Vice villains, sadly ruined by needless orange fencing:
20170408_114850_zpsp81bdek7 by James Vincent, on Flickr

We then took a prime parking position at our retreat for the evening:

20170422_112447_zpszpywrcxq by James Vincent, on Flickr

The drive home was almost as fun the next day, with the Alfa again performing well but clonking at potholes and sharp bends.

Once safely back in the capital, we were greeted by long-planned parcels of joy to be fitted. More updates to follow as the refurb continues, and the suspension is analysed:
20170414_095608_zpsve4g31dt by James Vincent, on Flickr

Edited by Spinakerr on Saturday 22 July 13:26