Project Thunder - Rolls Royce Meteor
Discussion
That looks interesting. Thanks for posting that up !
Although not ideal, have you thought about mounting an alternator next to the driveshaft/propshaft and drive it off the propshaft ? You could use some ribbed supercharger belts too. Not ideal if you get stuck in traffic a lot, though.
Good luck with the project
Although not ideal, have you thought about mounting an alternator next to the driveshaft/propshaft and drive it off the propshaft ? You could use some ribbed supercharger belts too. Not ideal if you get stuck in traffic a lot, though.
Good luck with the project
[quote=Texas mongrel]small world, I'm building a Meteor-engine car too. After looking at using an old Rolls or similar chassis, I opted to go with a new frame that I've fabricated from scratch. This will allow me to use old-looking type components that are actually new. Some pix of the motor and frame attached. I plan to use a Ford C-6 auto trans and have got an adapter for it machined-up. My focus currently is on the frame and suspension, but I've a number of questions about the engine, including;
do I stick with the enormous 24V starter or somehow switch to a 12V? How the hell do you fit an alternator to this engine, it's got no accessory drive? The old hydroplanes used six Weber 48IDAs for induction, not sure if this is the way to go?
Anyway, the car will eventually look like the 1928 Rolls Phantom 16EX which I think is the best looking of those cars. Will be 144" wheelbase, run 21" wheels with Blockley tyres etc, (some of the specials I see use wheels that are too small so the whole car looks odd). I reckon three years should see it completed.
Have you calculated the gearing and what engine RPM you will see at 75mph?
Charlie is building me a coupling/flywheel for my TH400 auto gearbox and the wheels/tyres need to be about 39" total diameter for relaxed (1000rpm cruising at 75/80mph).
Remember that in the 52 tonne Centurion these engines would use 1700 litres of petrol a day when working hard. To make the finished project usable/affordable most of us will need to look at ways of managing fuel consumption.
I will be injecting fuel and using electronic ignition so will be able to cut cylinders if I wish.
Have you had that engine running?
Are you in the USA or UK?
do I stick with the enormous 24V starter or somehow switch to a 12V? How the hell do you fit an alternator to this engine, it's got no accessory drive? The old hydroplanes used six Weber 48IDAs for induction, not sure if this is the way to go?
Anyway, the car will eventually look like the 1928 Rolls Phantom 16EX which I think is the best looking of those cars. Will be 144" wheelbase, run 21" wheels with Blockley tyres etc, (some of the specials I see use wheels that are too small so the whole car looks odd). I reckon three years should see it completed.
Have you calculated the gearing and what engine RPM you will see at 75mph?
Charlie is building me a coupling/flywheel for my TH400 auto gearbox and the wheels/tyres need to be about 39" total diameter for relaxed (1000rpm cruising at 75/80mph).
Remember that in the 52 tonne Centurion these engines would use 1700 litres of petrol a day when working hard. To make the finished project usable/affordable most of us will need to look at ways of managing fuel consumption.
I will be injecting fuel and using electronic ignition so will be able to cut cylinders if I wish.
Have you had that engine running?
Are you in the USA or UK?
I have a couple of options for gearing; I can use an underdrive behind the trans, or go with a 2.40:1 rear end. With the 21" wheels, tyre diameter is 36" and that gives me around 120mph topspeed with the 2:40 rear. I can't imagine wanting to drive it that fast! The underdrive would definitely lower my cruising rpm, though.
The engine has been fired-up four times in its life, its ex-Australian army and looks brand new inside, although obviously the seals and gaskets have dried out a bit., I have a video of it running that I asked for before handing over the cash. I'm intruiged about your EFI and ignition, I presume you toss out the magnetos?
I'm based in Houston, Texas. I've built loads of stuff, but this is definitely my biggest project to-date!
The engine has been fired-up four times in its life, its ex-Australian army and looks brand new inside, although obviously the seals and gaskets have dried out a bit., I have a video of it running that I asked for before handing over the cash. I'm intruiged about your EFI and ignition, I presume you toss out the magnetos?
I'm based in Houston, Texas. I've built loads of stuff, but this is definitely my biggest project to-date!
Well that's a blast from the past!
I'm afraid to say that my engine is still in pieces. A combination of final year of uni, giving more time to our Formula Student team, and buying a Sea King cockpit (yes really!) means I haven't laid a finger on the Meteor for over a year. I need to sort both the engine and this thread out (up yours, photobucket) , and get cracking again!
Texas, your project looks epic, feel free to share this thread for your build too so we can have double the Meteor fun and motivate each other!
You are very lucky to be able to build a custom chassis without major legality headaches. Over here, any new build chassis has to go through an individual type-approval test to be declared roadworthy. The test is always done to modern car standards, which means that vintage-style bodywork, cockpit ergonomics and instrumentation would be almost impossible to get through without being sanitised to the point of looking completely wrong. Gently modifying a vintage chassis and running gear will allow me to sidestep this.
I'm afraid to say that my engine is still in pieces. A combination of final year of uni, giving more time to our Formula Student team, and buying a Sea King cockpit (yes really!) means I haven't laid a finger on the Meteor for over a year. I need to sort both the engine and this thread out (up yours, photobucket) , and get cracking again!
Texas, your project looks epic, feel free to share this thread for your build too so we can have double the Meteor fun and motivate each other!
You are very lucky to be able to build a custom chassis without major legality headaches. Over here, any new build chassis has to go through an individual type-approval test to be declared roadworthy. The test is always done to modern car standards, which means that vintage-style bodywork, cockpit ergonomics and instrumentation would be almost impossible to get through without being sanitised to the point of looking completely wrong. Gently modifying a vintage chassis and running gear will allow me to sidestep this.
Texas mongrel said:
I have a couple of options for gearing; I can use an underdrive behind the trans, or go with a 2.40:1 rear end. With the 21" wheels, tyre diameter is 36" and that gives me around 120mph topspeed with the 2:40 rear. I can't imagine wanting to drive it that fast! The underdrive would definitely lower my cruising rpm, though.
The engine has been fired-up four times in its life, its ex-Australian army and looks brand new inside, although obviously the seals and gaskets have dried out a bit., I have a video of it running that I asked for before handing over the cash. I'm intruiged about your EFI and ignition, I presume you toss out the magnetos?.
I'm based in Houston, Texas. I've built loads of stuff, but this is definitely my biggest project to-date!
You are lucky to live in a country that allows quite a free hand on vehicles you put on the public highway. As has been said, the same is not so in the UK.The engine has been fired-up four times in its life, its ex-Australian army and looks brand new inside, although obviously the seals and gaskets have dried out a bit., I have a video of it running that I asked for before handing over the cash. I'm intruiged about your EFI and ignition, I presume you toss out the magnetos?.
I'm based in Houston, Texas. I've built loads of stuff, but this is definitely my biggest project to-date!
If yours is an Mk4B then it tops out at about 2700rpm. Remember if you increase the engine speed, you reduce the power and torque. It has plenty of both so that may not be an issue.
I will probably use the magnetos to distribute the spark. Use more modern plugs and leads.
These engines are not designed to operate like a car engine. They spend most of their time at either idle or WOT. The fuelling and ignition were designed with that in mind.
My engine will be 12V as will the starter. Parts are more readily available and cheaper.
You mention a video of the engine running. Was there any white/blue smoke? The issues with these engines are usually with the valve train. Oiling of the camshaft is the weak point on these engines. The amount of oil flowing to the valves is too little and they get wear on some of the cam lobes. You also get wear in the valve guides and the associated oil burning.
In the Centurion there was 70 litres of oil to 'burn' but a cloud of smoke could give away the tank's position. None of us want to carry 70 litres of oil or have a smoke screen behind us as we arrive anywhere.
These engines are a work of art inside. Other than the cam lobes it is hard to tell if there is wear just by looking.
In my experience the only engines to give no issue are the MOD newly refurbished (crate) engines.
An MOD freshly refurbished engine will emit no smoke at all. After all, the refurbishment cost £80,000 each.
Most used engines have come from scrapped tanks or were removed because they had an issue and were replaced.
There are no new engines. Production ceased in 1960 and most engines have been refurbished more than once. UK MOD ceased using the Centurion in the early 1990's after the first Gulf war. Some other countries continued to use them but there were few fresh refurbishments from then on.
Beware!
Just had a proper look at your photo, Texas. Mine has a whacking great carburettor assembly sitting in the middle of the Vee, did yours come with one?
On the subject of the accessory drive, mine came with a huge alternator which was designed to mount on top of one of the cam covers, this is belt driven from the crank pulley. You could also somehow tap into the incline drive gearbox on the other end of the engine. File picture attached showing alternator, belt drive and carbs:
On the subject of the accessory drive, mine came with a huge alternator which was designed to mount on top of one of the cam covers, this is belt driven from the crank pulley. You could also somehow tap into the incline drive gearbox on the other end of the engine. File picture attached showing alternator, belt drive and carbs:
ChemicalChaos said:
Just had a proper look at your photo, Texas. Mine has a whacking great carburettor assembly sitting in the middle of the Vee, did yours come with one?
On the subject of the accessory drive, mine came with a huge alternator which was designed to mount on top of one of the cam covers, this is belt driven from the crank pulley. You could also somehow tap into the incline drive gearbox on the other end of the engine. File picture attached showing alternator, belt drive and carbs:
The engine in that picture comes straight from a tank.On the subject of the accessory drive, mine came with a huge alternator which was designed to mount on top of one of the cam covers, this is belt driven from the crank pulley. You could also somehow tap into the incline drive gearbox on the other end of the engine. File picture attached showing alternator, belt drive and carbs:
A rebuilt engine does not come on a 'chassis' (part of the cooling system). Usually they come on a wooden frame (inside a box).
You are going to spend a great deal of time (and money) building your projects so please check that your engine's run well and are healthy before you go to all that trouble.
There are quite a few zero hours engines out there (at a cost) if yours prove not to be healthy.
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=lDEB...
The above video shows how little smoke a good engine emits. There is a small amount of inhibitor burn-off but no smoke.
This is the second zero hour engine I have run up with no smoke.
Check out some of the other youtube videos with older engines.
No smoke when running.
The engine came with the ridiculously heavy water-cooled intake and updraft Zeniths, but I took them off.
I don't want to use the original accessory drive coz I want nice valve covers! I'm thinking there might be a way to run an alternator off the fuel pump drives as I'll probably go with an in-tank electric pump, but of course I'll need to figure out RPM etc to make sure the alternator works properly. Another option might be to sandwich a pulley between the crank snout and starte dog.
Storer, how do you go with 12v starter? Mine is 24v and I'm told it spins the motor at 30rpm.
Loads of future issues where I'll be asking questions, such as cooking capacity, oil tank, etc. John Dodds turned his engine into a wet dump unit because he said it helped prevent overheating - not sure I get that but it would save finding a place for a bloody big oil tank.
Just saw 'Dunkirk' yesterday, loved Mark Rylance when three Spitfires flew over his boat, "Rolls Royce Merlins, son, the best sound in the world." How true!
The engine came with the ridiculously heavy water-cooled intake and updraft Zeniths, but I took them off.
I don't want to use the original accessory drive coz I want nice valve covers! I'm thinking there might be a way to run an alternator off the fuel pump drives as I'll probably go with an in-tank electric pump, but of course I'll need to figure out RPM etc to make sure the alternator works properly. Another option might be to sandwich a pulley between the crank snout and starte dog.
Storer, how do you go with 12v starter? Mine is 24v and I'm told it spins the motor at 30rpm.
Loads of future issues where I'll be asking questions, such as cooking capacity, oil tank, etc. John Dodds turned his engine into a wet dump unit because he said it helped prevent overheating - not sure I get that but it would save finding a place for a bloody big oil tank.
Just saw 'Dunkirk' yesterday, loved Mark Rylance when three Spitfires flew over his boat, "Rolls Royce Merlins, son, the best sound in the world." How true!
TM - are you are planning a.n.other ignition systembased on engine management?
If so, perhaps it be possible to re-use the magneto drives for alternators? Denso do some awfully compact 40-60A alternators that would likely drop in to the space available with a modest amount of adaptor machining; and running say two with only c.1hp draw max on the cross gear for each won't be noticed at all. It would need some checking of ratings curves, since at idle they'd be running only c. 300rpm, but could be a neat & effective-enough solution.
If so, perhaps it be possible to re-use the magneto drives for alternators? Denso do some awfully compact 40-60A alternators that would likely drop in to the space available with a modest amount of adaptor machining; and running say two with only c.1hp draw max on the cross gear for each won't be noticed at all. It would need some checking of ratings curves, since at idle they'd be running only c. 300rpm, but could be a neat & effective-enough solution.
Edited by Huff on Wednesday 26th July 20:54
Texas mongrel said:
No smoke when running.
The engine came with the ridiculously heavy water-cooled intake and updraft Zeniths, but I took them off.
I don't want to use the original accessory drive coz I want nice valve covers! I'm thinking there might be a way to run an alternator off the fuel pump drives as I'll probably go with an in-tank electric pump, but of course I'll need to figure out RPM etc to make sure the alternator works properly. Another option might be to sandwich a pulley between the crank snout and starte dog.
Storer, how do you go with 12v starter? Mine is 24v and I'm told it spins the motor at 30rpm.
Loads of future issues where I'll be asking questions, such as cooking capacity, oil tank, etc. John Dodds turned his engine into a wet dump unit because he said it helped prevent overheating - not sure I get that but it would save finding a place for a bloody big oil tank.
Just saw 'Dunkirk' yesterday, loved Mark Rylance when three Spitfires flew over his boat, "Rolls Royce Merlins, son, the best sound in the world." How true!
That inlet manifold and carbs weigh about 25 - 35kgs so worth removing. It is basically a bucket pouring petrol into the engine!!!!The engine came with the ridiculously heavy water-cooled intake and updraft Zeniths, but I took them off.
I don't want to use the original accessory drive coz I want nice valve covers! I'm thinking there might be a way to run an alternator off the fuel pump drives as I'll probably go with an in-tank electric pump, but of course I'll need to figure out RPM etc to make sure the alternator works properly. Another option might be to sandwich a pulley between the crank snout and starte dog.
Storer, how do you go with 12v starter? Mine is 24v and I'm told it spins the motor at 30rpm.
Loads of future issues where I'll be asking questions, such as cooking capacity, oil tank, etc. John Dodds turned his engine into a wet dump unit because he said it helped prevent overheating - not sure I get that but it would save finding a place for a bloody big oil tank.
Just saw 'Dunkirk' yesterday, loved Mark Rylance when three Spitfires flew over his boat, "Rolls Royce Merlins, son, the best sound in the world." How true!
I will remove the 24v starter from the front of the engine. It is too slow and needs additional help to generate enough spark to start the engine.
My starter will act on the new flywheel.
I live about 5 miles from Duxford so Spitfire, Hurricane and Mustang aerobatics are almost a daily occurrence.
Still makes me look up each time though.
base chassis now finished. I'm currently fabricating a subframe that will tie the engine and transmission together, will be isolated from the main chassis by four poly bushings. The front axle should arrive shortly (from a 1946 Ford truck) and that will allow me to start working on the steering set-up. Also getting some custom rear leaf springs built with appropriate stiffness and spring rate. I'm still torn regarding using an under-drive or a really low rear end ratio. My latest thought is to go with a Winters quick change rear end - this will give me a 2.00:1 ratio, and it looks bad-ass, sort of retro, so in keeping with the theme. It would also work out a little cheaper than an under-drive and nine-inch Ford, plus will allow me to tweak the ratio once the car is finished.
Storer "runs well"? You must be joking! I bought the the damn thing in about 200 pieces because someone had dismantled it with designs on using it to repair a crashed Merlin.... mind you, that does give me the opportunity to make sure it goes back together properly!
I'm lucky to have serial Merlin engine builder/collectors Pete Grieve and Mike Davey as good friends. With them either close at hand or a phone call away, I hopefully shouldn't go too far wrong....
TM - ditto on the cam covers - I purchased a spare Meteor Mk1 smooth cover to replace the one with the mounts for the accessories, so I'll be in the same situation frame wise - I suspect I'll run a bracket from the trailer chassis and mount them low down alongside the engine banks. I shall also be polishing the covers to a bare metal finish
With regards to the intake, the stupid cast water jacket on the manifold can be milled off to leave 4 clamshell-shaped inlet tracts running from the carburettor assembly up into the cylinder head. I've had Pete Grieve do this for me although with an angle grinder. Care and patience you can do it yourself.
I'm lucky to have serial Merlin engine builder/collectors Pete Grieve and Mike Davey as good friends. With them either close at hand or a phone call away, I hopefully shouldn't go too far wrong....
TM - ditto on the cam covers - I purchased a spare Meteor Mk1 smooth cover to replace the one with the mounts for the accessories, so I'll be in the same situation frame wise - I suspect I'll run a bracket from the trailer chassis and mount them low down alongside the engine banks. I shall also be polishing the covers to a bare metal finish
With regards to the intake, the stupid cast water jacket on the manifold can be milled off to leave 4 clamshell-shaped inlet tracts running from the carburettor assembly up into the cylinder head. I've had Pete Grieve do this for me although with an angle grinder. Care and patience you can do it yourself.
been busy on the car. Front end now installed, based on a 1946 Ford truck axle with disc brakes hidden inside finned drum covers. The rear end arrives next week, it's a Winters Land-speed quick change with a 2.2:1.00 ratio. This ratio will work well with the 2650 rpm red line and big diameter wheels. I'll fit 11" drums with matching finned covers for rear brakes. The 40 gallon petrol and 10 gallon oil tanks also will arrive next week for mounting immediately behind the seats. Am also about to order a custom radiator and header/swirl tank for the engine.
Current effort is figuring out an alternator drive - I tried taking off the casting that supports the old front-mounted starter motor, but it won't come off because the big bevel drive inside the wheelcase is too big to pass through the opening. I really don't want to take the whole wheelcase apart, but it might come to this -- my original plan was to use the nose of the crank (where the old starter dog fits) as the place to fit an accessory drive pulley. I think I've solved the starter motor issue, will hopefully be able to fit an offset reduction gear unit on the flexplate of the C6 transmission. The trans is not yet ordered as I'm getting lots of differing feedback about how to build something to handle the 1650ft-lbs torque of the engine.
I've also ordered a set of 21" wire wheels and tires from Richard Brothers in Cardiff, they should be ready by Christmas at which time I'll fit them and drop in the motor to put the car on the ground and see how it sits under load, I suspect that I'll have to re-arch the rear springs to get a level chassis.
Been fun project so far!
Current effort is figuring out an alternator drive - I tried taking off the casting that supports the old front-mounted starter motor, but it won't come off because the big bevel drive inside the wheelcase is too big to pass through the opening. I really don't want to take the whole wheelcase apart, but it might come to this -- my original plan was to use the nose of the crank (where the old starter dog fits) as the place to fit an accessory drive pulley. I think I've solved the starter motor issue, will hopefully be able to fit an offset reduction gear unit on the flexplate of the C6 transmission. The trans is not yet ordered as I'm getting lots of differing feedback about how to build something to handle the 1650ft-lbs torque of the engine.
I've also ordered a set of 21" wire wheels and tires from Richard Brothers in Cardiff, they should be ready by Christmas at which time I'll fit them and drop in the motor to put the car on the ground and see how it sits under load, I suspect that I'll have to re-arch the rear springs to get a level chassis.
Been fun project so far!
Megaflow said:
40 gallon fuel tank...
Glad I'm not paying to fill that!
It's not the cost to fill it, it's the cost per mile!Glad I'm not paying to fill that!
On a motorway at a gentle, steady 70 mph it might squeeze 15mpg.
General driving and going to car events will see that halve.
Fuel cost probably close to £0.75 per mile......
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