BMW 2002Tii (ish)

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scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Friday 1st December 2017
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Well the pistons have been done!





Comparison compared to my modelling clay exercise:





Should do the trick! Picking them up tomorrow when i pop in to help out so ill get a better look at them then. Ill be reweighing them to double check and also remeasuring the intruder volume to work out the CR, hopefully still 10.5+.

Thanks,

Scott

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
Quick trial assembly over the weekend to ensure the pockets were in the right place, i can confirm the machining was done perfect!

Sequence of testing below:

Piston in:



Valves blued:





Dropped and tested:







Valve drop check, bearing in mind previous clearance was 3-3.3mm and valve lift at TDC is 3.7mm, plenty of clearance now it seems! This should leave me clear for 10 degrees either side too, which is sometimes worse than the clearance at TDC.



Next step will be to measure the intruder volume again and work out the CR, hopefully tonight if i get some garage time!

Thanks,

Scott

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 4th December 2017
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PORNO

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Monday 4th December 2017
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Nice work as ever.

I've spent the weekend lusting after this….

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-1800-NEUE-KLASSE-CA...

I'd drop the ride height a bit, retro fit some Scheel seats, Petri steering wheel and a carpet, then just enjoy it.

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Monday 4th December 2017
quotequote all
Breadvan72 said:
PORNO
haha cheers

e30m3Mark said:
Nice work as ever.

I've spent the weekend lusting after this….

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-1800-NEUE-KLASSE-CA...

I'd drop the ride height a bit, retro fit some Scheel seats, Petri steering wheel and a carpet, then just enjoy it.
Cheers Mark, didnt get much time on it this weekend though. Was at Cadwell all yesterday with my friend testing in his 911 racer, i stuck a pic up on instagram if you have me on there, awesome thing!

Im not an NK man but its a lovely car, had a good look when it first went up on the forum! It looks like it could be converted into a period racer pretty easy too! He's selling another NK, a standard one with some rust issues but that thing is lovely!

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Monday 4th December 2017
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I was never really a NK guy either. I had a malaga one back in the early 90's that I bought for £50. Nobody wanted them back then. I saw the works classic transporter a couple of years back and the pair of untouched 1800tisa BMW had discovered gathering dust in a factory corner, that they then race prepared. I was smitten. The absolute lack of rust is a big bonus on the eBay car but it would mean selling the M3. I just love the thought of doing some historic hill climbs and track days in an NK but parting with the E30 would be very hard.

So what wheels have you had in mind? I love the wide 13'' Minilites and ballon type race tyre look on an 02. 8 or 9 x 13's and some Hoosiers would be so cool.

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
e30m3Mark said:
I was never really a NK guy either. I had a malaga one back in the early 90's that I bought for £50. Nobody wanted them back then. I saw the works classic transporter a couple of years back and the pair of untouched 1800tisa BMW had discovered gathering dust in a factory corner, that they then race prepared. I was smitten. The absolute lack of rust is a big bonus on the eBay car but it would mean selling the M3. I just love the thought of doing some historic hill climbs and track days in an NK but parting with the E30 would be very hard.

So what wheels have you had in mind? I love the wide 13'' Minilites and ballon type race tyre look on an 02. 8 or 9 x 13's and some Hoosiers would be so cool.
Thats the look i was wanting but my car has a rear disc conversion that wont allow 13's sadly! I am going for 15" minilites instead with 50 profile track tyres, just on talking with them at the moment, sorting offsets and what not.

After spending sunday in my mates 964 hillclimb car i think im going to bite the bullet and get some top suspension now, if im going t cut up some Tii legs i may as well do it properly! Started approaching a couple of companies.

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
scottos said:
Thats the look i was wanting but my car has a rear disc conversion that wont allow 13's sadly! I am going for 15" minilites instead with 50 profile track tyres, just on talking with them at the moment, sorting offsets and what not.

After spending sunday in my mates 964 hillclimb car i think im going to bite the bullet and get some top suspension now, if im going t cut up some Tii legs i may as well do it properly! Started approaching a couple of companies.
Is there enough of the tii leg used to warrant not just using regular 02 legs instead? (it's been a while and am a bit rusty on 02 specs)

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
quotequote all
The Crack Fox said:
Great thread, I am learning from your posts and appreciate the detail you go in to. Thanks.

Here, have a smiley thing - smile
Great stuff and thanks, i'm glad its helping in some way, this has been a great car for me to put theory into practice, it's relatively simple

e30m3Mark said:
Is there enough of the tii leg used to warrant not just using regular 02 legs instead? (it's been a while and am a bit rusty on 02 specs)
With it being a Tii i'd like to keep the Tii legs, its got new m535i calipers and e21 discs/ hubs on too. I'd have to swap all this out if i used the smaller stub axle regular '02 strut housings. I think i'll be making use of the larger stub axle on the Tii struts long term anyway, especially with the low offset wheels it'll be running.

jaacck

188 posts

139 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
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love this build, awesome stuff.

Justin S

3,637 posts

260 months

Tuesday 5th December 2017
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Looks great , but not sure if this is correct, but I would round the sharp edges where the machining is done on the pistons, as the thinner the material , I was lead to believe may cause a hot spot on the piston. Yes, it may affect CR, or minimal change. I may be talking rubbish, but sure it was in a Vizard book or something.

99PBATR

486 posts

77 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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Hats off to you sir. What a beautiful machine. My fave BMW without a doubt. An old friend of mine was a BMW 2002 nut and a had not one but 3 2002's and also a 1602? convertible (which I think he still has) He had a 2002Ti Turbo (drool) and also an exceptionally rare Alpina 2002 which he took 10 years to convince the German owner to sell it to him. I was lucky enough to have driven both. I actually preferred the Alpina one. I've added a few old pics of the 2002Ti Turbo he had.

I smiled at your comment about once you start sorting stuff and getting it looking nice you can't stop...ha ha been there done that. It is worth it though as it will be unique and not another one like it.
















Legacywr

12,019 posts

187 months

Wednesday 6th December 2017
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I'd rather see the Alpina? smile

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
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jaacck said:
love this build, awesome stuff.
Cheers matey!

Justin S said:
Looks great , but not sure if this is correct, but I would round the sharp edges where the machining is done on the pistons, as the thinner the material , I was lead to believe may cause a hot spot on the piston. Yes, it may affect CR, or minimal change. I may be talking rubbish, but sure it was in a Vizard book or something.
Thanks and yep, hot spots on sharp edges will ignite the mixture before the spark but everything has been radiused, no sharp edges. It might be hard to pick up from the pictures.

99PBATR said:
Hats off to you sir. What a beautiful machine. My fave BMW without a doubt. An old friend of mine was a BMW 2002 nut and a had not one but 3 2002's and also a 1602? convertible (which I think he still has) He had a 2002Ti Turbo (drool) and also an exceptionally rare Alpina 2002 which he took 10 years to convince the German owner to sell it to him. I was lucky enough to have driven both. I actually preferred the Alpina one. I've added a few old pics of the 2002Ti Turbo he had.

I smiled at your comment about once you start sorting stuff and getting it looking nice you can't stop...ha ha been there done that. It is worth it though as it will be unique and not another one like it.
Thats 2002 Turbo looks awesome, that'll be 100k worth of car now! Same goes with the Alpina, if not more wobble That seems to be the consensus that the Tii was more of a drivers car than the turbo. Im hoping with my warmed up engine ill be somewhere near turbo power without the turbo!

You're right there and its not so bad when the cars appreciating as you go along, im hoping it will be a keeper though so irrelevant!

Thanks,

Scott

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
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I always used to lust after the turbo but they're actually a bit temperamental when it comes to real world use. The Alpina A4S always seemed a better car to me anyway. That said, the turbo is still a terrific car and I love the period styling. Car SOS did an awesome job on the one they restored if you haven't seen it yet? It's available 'on demand' from National Geographic channel I believe?


scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Thursday 7th December 2017
quotequote all
e30m3Mark said:
I always used to lust after the turbo but they're actually a bit temperamental when it comes to real world use. The Alpina A4S always seemed a better car to me anyway. That said, the turbo is still a terrific car and I love the period styling. Car SOS did an awesome job on the one they restored if you haven't seen it yet? It's available 'on demand' from National Geographic channel I believe?
I'd love a proper look around a turbo one, like you say its the whole styling of the thing! First time i saw one was when i first got my Saturday job at the engine builders i still go to now (some 14 years ago), i didnt have a clue what it was but i just thought it looked awesome, even more so than our genuine group a 635csi we were testing with!

We still look after the 635csi and i'd maybe stick them about par on the lust scale, if not the 635 leading it slightly now!

I've caught that episode a couple of times now, the turn around is great to see, especially for the old boy who never would have driven the thing ever again! Heart warming stuff.

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Friday 8th December 2017
quotequote all
Well, back to it! I built the head back up as i'd knocked the rocker shafts back out slightly to remove the valves from No4:



I installed No4 piston with just the compression ring in place and some modelling clay in the relief pockets, fitted the head gasket and placed the head onto the short motor. I then nipped it down ever so slightly, fitted the timing chain/ cam sprocket and timed it up.





I then turned it over a number of times and disassembled it to see how much clearance i now had. I cut the clay in half down the relief so i could measure the thickness.



As you can see, there's plenty of clearance now, some 1.75mm on the exhaust and 3mm on the inlet.

Now that this had been confirmed i moved onto doing a final static compression ratio check. We had it up to just under 11:1 before the pockets but obviously the clearance wasnt there to run it like this. This exercise was to see how the pockets had affected the CR. Set up as below:





Fag packet (selection box lid that was meant for a friends child haha) calculations:



As you may be able to make out, we've gone from 10.94:1 down to 10.46:1. This is up from the standard 10:1 high compression mahle pistons of the day and whilst not as high as i'd have liked, it's still up there enough where i'd hope to make some decent gains from it.

This brings me onto camshafts, I've never compared cam shaft profiles before but being this is a relatively mild engine i went for what i thought was a relatively mild camshaft. I've recently compared this against a Schrick 304 (Schrick 292 was too mild for what i wanted really) and found that my cam has more lift at TDC, more overall lift and what appears to be a longer effective duration (above 1mm lift and back down, the way catcams measure it). The higher compression ratio the better for a camshaft such as this so it's probably for the best we've managed to get it up a bit!

If i ran a Schrick 304 it appears i could have got away without the pockets but would have had to have used the standard thickness head gasket, i've not done the calcs but the CR would likely have been lower than what i've achieved with a camshaft that wouldnt perform as well. So all in all it appears this has been a worthwhile exercise and whilst not being as simple as i intended i'm hoping it will all be for the better of the engine.

Hope i've not bored you to death with this one but thanks for reading!

Scott

deadslow

7,962 posts

222 months

Friday 8th December 2017
quotequote all
scottos said:
Hope i've not bored you to death with this one but thanks for reading!

Scott
Christ No!! This is the best thread on PH.

Mark Benson

7,498 posts

268 months

Friday 8th December 2017
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deadslow said:
Christ No!! This is the best thread on PH.
yes

There are still some of us nerds that like to see CRs and stuff.

scottos

Original Poster:

1,139 posts

123 months

Friday 22nd December 2017
quotequote all
deadslow said:
Christ No!! This is the best thread on PH.
Mark Benson said:
yes

There are still some of us nerds that like to see CRs and stuff.
Both too kind, appreciate the kind words though!

Not a massive amount to update, i basically built the engine up after doing the CR calc and valve clearance checks. I then fitted the itb's and the Tii water housing, which needed the gasket 'modifying' as the itb's are o-ring sealed. I could have used the standard gaskets but the jenvey inlet manifold is perfectly port matched without!















Front timing cover tip by my boss, a little bit of gasket seal in the corners when installing. Apparently prone to leaking here!





Finished (ish)





Im waiting on the windage tray and i can install the sump (again) but with better gaskets. I also ran into a problem with the rocker cover once i built the engine up and installed the oil spray bar. The button head bolts i thought id get away with catch on the spray bar, you can see this below after i 'blued' up the bolt heads. I could make up and alloy plate instead and get it welded but i think ill use it as an excuse to get a Heidegger rocker cover as a nod to the privateers who managed to win Le Man in a 2002! (there's that man maths again)





I ordered the wheels a couple of weeks ago and heard nothing since, i was hoping to have them for Christmas as i intend to take the springs off the car and get the wheels on to tuck them right up for clearance checks and so i can decide on a tyre.

I've also been in talks with Nitron who seem willing to do me a kit for the car. I wasnt intending to do the suspension yet but i know when i get the car running that if it doesn't sit exactly as i have an image in my head then ill be disappointed. I also figure if im going to cut up some hens teeth Tii/ Turbo struts i may as well have them done by one of the best. It'll be a stretch to afford these but i think it'll be one of the most important parts on the car. Once i've done the wheel checks and some parts arrive i hope to get this suspension underway!

I've also asked for a brake pipe flaring tool for Christmas off the missus so it seems a good time to practice by removing the twin remote servo set up. Now it seems a common thing to do but people seem 50/50 whether to run the standard MC or the slightly bigger 22mm e9 variant so i think ill do the delete with the standard and see what sort of pedal i can achieve. I'm not up to scratch on braking systems to be honest so nervously looking forward to it!

I've also made inquiries on the seats and the roll cage now my recaros have sold. I think ill take the plunge on both in the new year. More beans on toast for me in 2018!

Thanks again for reading,

Scott