The £7700 Corvette C6
Discussion
Love this thread and the way you’re using the car..
I recently took my VXR8 (LS2) out to Nürburgring and had a valve spring break. Fortunately I didn’t drop a valve or else it’d be time for a new engine.
Apologies if you’ve already done it, but it’s worth considering dual valve springs, especially given the workout that your car gets!
I recently took my VXR8 (LS2) out to Nürburgring and had a valve spring break. Fortunately I didn’t drop a valve or else it’d be time for a new engine.
Apologies if you’ve already done it, but it’s worth considering dual valve springs, especially given the workout that your car gets!
Shnozz said:
I admire your attention to detail and some home made modifications in your approach. I remember chasing cooler temps on my old TVR in a similar fashion and water wetter was a great little easy addition! Thought it would be snake oil but definitely helped.
I had thought with the Vettes being run in the USA and in many in the Middle East they would be fine with temperatures.
Thanks, good to hear that Water Wetter helped your car. The standard C6 Coupe is fine in high ambient temps and can cope with autocross type events, it just struggles with trackday sessions. It now appears that the large $1000 oil cooler kit I bought has been redesigned as it blocks too much airflow. Since becoming a Dad I don't have the spare cash to replace this with another oil cooler, so will have to live with it for now. I had thought with the Vettes being run in the USA and in many in the Middle East they would be fine with temperatures.
firemunki said:
I reckon you could prob cut up the heat sinks and get more on the trans, and like you, I think lots of little bits would add up. Even if it's only a degree or two it could be enough to bring it to a point where the stock cooling is effective again.
Plus heatsinks, and thermal wraps just look cool.
I hope you're right, yes, it might take a bit of time but I could cut up some more of the solid heat sinks and bond them to flat surfaces on the gearbox and diff casings. Plus heatsinks, and thermal wraps just look cool.
Smitters said:
Anyway, that, and the car aside, huge congratulations to you both on Austin's arrival. Parenthood in your 40's is fine. Provided they sleep perfectly, behave well, never get ill... oh. Bugger. I've been knackered since 2014. You get used to it.
Thanks, I'm really enjoying it so far and he's actually sleeping well. Often he only wakes once in the night for a feed. 
He's 3 1/2 months old but is wearing 9 to 12 months old clothes, yikes! I took Austin for a short run along the driveway, he wasn't that fussed, but didn't cry so that's something.
Janosh said:
Love this thread and the way you’re using the car..
I recently took my VXR8 (LS2) out to Nürburgring and had a valve spring break. Fortunately I didn’t drop a valve or else it’d be time for a new engine.
Apologies if you’ve already done it, but it’s worth considering dual valve springs, especially given the workout that your car gets!
In hindsight I should have changed the springs last year when I replaced the lifters. I recently took my VXR8 (LS2) out to Nürburgring and had a valve spring break. Fortunately I didn’t drop a valve or else it’d be time for a new engine.
Apologies if you’ve already done it, but it’s worth considering dual valve springs, especially given the workout that your car gets!
Good advice. Did you manage to driver the car back?Two of the exhaust manifold bolt heads have broken, leaving the studs stuck in the heads, so at some stage they'll need to come off to be drilled out, so I'll change the springs then.
Janosh said:
Love this thread and the way you’re using the car..
I recently took my VXR8 (LS2) out to Nürburgring and had a valve spring break. Fortunately I didn’t drop a valve or else it’d be time for a new engine.
Apologies if you’ve already done it, but it’s worth considering dual valve springs, especially given the workout that your car gets!
Thank you. In hindsight I should have changed the springs last year when I replaced the lifters. I recently took my VXR8 (LS2) out to Nürburgring and had a valve spring break. Fortunately I didn’t drop a valve or else it’d be time for a new engine.
Apologies if you’ve already done it, but it’s worth considering dual valve springs, especially given the workout that your car gets!
Good advice. Did you manage to drive the car back?Two of the exhaust manifold bolt heads have broken, leaving the studs stuck in the heads, so at some stage they'll need to come off to be drilled out, so I'll change the springs then.
Definitely don’t drive with a broken spring! The chances of dropping a valve are high. I limped 30km as I didn’t know what the problem was and got very lucky.
Rocker covers are quick and easy to remove but you then need a special tool to tension the springs when removing & installing. A specialist is doing mine as the main cost is in the (BTR) springs and pushrods.
I only had about 30k miles on the beehive springs that were matched to a mild cam... but I knew they should be changed sooner or later so kicked myself when it spoiled my trip
The LS engines are strong but the springs can be a weakness and can ruin an otherwise perfectly healthy engine.
Rocker covers are quick and easy to remove but you then need a special tool to tension the springs when removing & installing. A specialist is doing mine as the main cost is in the (BTR) springs and pushrods.
I only had about 30k miles on the beehive springs that were matched to a mild cam... but I knew they should be changed sooner or later so kicked myself when it spoiled my trip
The LS engines are strong but the springs can be a weakness and can ruin an otherwise perfectly healthy engine.
It's time for another lengthy update, starting from early September.
With a changeable forecast for Scotland with a week to go I made the decision to stick to Yokohama AD08R tyres as a good all rounder. Not as fast as a true semi-slick, but less likely to see me aquaplane in the event of a highland downpour. Adams & Page in High Wycombe tracked down a pair of the last rear tyres in the country (sadly replaced by the disappointing 'RS' version), fitted, with a full geometry check and set up at the same time. The last time I took the car on track I was disappointed with the wayward handling, but put it down to the worn rear tyres. It turns out that the rear toe was off, probably a result of the high loads and kerbs. I could still go for more negative camber, but balancing road manners and tyre life this is an ok compromise.
|https://thumbsnap.com/gEb4rH77[/url]
This was an opportunity to change the tyre pressure sensors (they generally seem to last around 10 years) and fit the polished wheels I'd bought cheaply from the States last year. The corroded chrome wheels will end up being fitted with some track specific rubber and having given up on trying to find anyone who will re-chrome them I will give Plasticote a go at some stage.
I highly recommend A&P, they know their stuff.
The boot can accommodate a pair of wheels, with one in the footwell and one on the passenger seat.
[url]
I changed the air filters again to free up every last bit of power, a few general checks and it was time to head north from Wiltshire to Scotland. Partly it was to compete at Knockhill for the first time and partly to have a bit of a break away, just me, the car and the scenery. I arrived the day before the competition, on Saturday 12th September, it being noticeably chillier than the conditions I'd left behind, oh and wet too.
With my car not having a roll cage I was unable to join in on the test day, but the circuit very kindly allowed me half a dozen laps to familiarise myself with the track. A lot happens in a short space of time, no long straights to relax and plenty of gradient changes, which fully tested the soft suspension. Sadly it bottomed out hard every lap at Duffas Dip, the new rubber lip/under spoiler sections looking decidedly shaved.
The afternoon saw various series racing, it made a nice change for me to spectate rather than organise. The circuit is brilliant for viewing, with far reaching views towards Edinburgh and the mountains.
Sunday, with signing on and scrutineering having been completed remotely and in advance I had enough time to wash the car in the Travelodge car park, apply the number stickers and head to the circuit in time for a video briefing. reduce the tyre pressures and it was time to go out. Superlap Scotland most closely resembles Time Attack, both are best thought of as multiple qualifying sessions through the day. Basically you are competing against your rivals on lap time, not on position, this way you can safely have multiple cars on track and you have plenty of track time too (unlike a sprint). Sure, you lose that thrill of wheel to wheel racing, but are less likely to pick up damage and I don't need to fit a roll cage. The other benefit for my car in particular is letting it cool down with a slow lap, before going at it again to set a fast time, this is far kinder to the car and helps the brakes in particular.
Hard to properly assess the effectiveness of the cooling mods given the lower ambient temperatures, but given that the circuit is known for being hard on brakes with big stops and no long straights I was happy with both the coolant and oil temps throughout the event (220F coolant and 235F oil). the heat haze through the bonnet vent was particularly impressive when coming off the track.
Entered into class D (classes based on power to weight), I was up against an Evo and an Impreza, not what I needed in changeable conditions. The Evo had blown its engine up so it was just myself and the Subaru. The driver and team were very friendly and shared photo and video with me through the day. Great to chat to so many people (at a distance and always with face mask) who were welcoming and seemed to appreciate the V8, a couple of whom recognised my car from this very thread! Hi to the PHer with the Seat parked opposite me.
In order to condense the story, the Subaru was just too fast for me through the day. The damp conditions didn't help, but even in the dry it was still a bit too speedy, all credit to the driver who finished 1.9 seconds ahead of me. Full semi slicks may have helped, but even then it would have been close.
Here's the video summary:
Very charitably I was given a 2nd in class award, being a bit of a tart I'll take that and will display it proudly. I really enjoyed the event, thought it was good value and best of all the car survived just fine ready for a bit of highland exploring the next day.
Here's the result of bottoming out on the front spoiler, this was new just a month before!
I stayed overnight at Stirling, which seemed nice but was a Covid ghost town. Still, I enjoyed a nice curry by myself.
With a changeable forecast for Scotland with a week to go I made the decision to stick to Yokohama AD08R tyres as a good all rounder. Not as fast as a true semi-slick, but less likely to see me aquaplane in the event of a highland downpour. Adams & Page in High Wycombe tracked down a pair of the last rear tyres in the country (sadly replaced by the disappointing 'RS' version), fitted, with a full geometry check and set up at the same time. The last time I took the car on track I was disappointed with the wayward handling, but put it down to the worn rear tyres. It turns out that the rear toe was off, probably a result of the high loads and kerbs. I could still go for more negative camber, but balancing road manners and tyre life this is an ok compromise.
|https://thumbsnap.com/gEb4rH77[/url]This was an opportunity to change the tyre pressure sensors (they generally seem to last around 10 years) and fit the polished wheels I'd bought cheaply from the States last year. The corroded chrome wheels will end up being fitted with some track specific rubber and having given up on trying to find anyone who will re-chrome them I will give Plasticote a go at some stage.
I highly recommend A&P, they know their stuff.
The boot can accommodate a pair of wheels, with one in the footwell and one on the passenger seat.
[url]I changed the air filters again to free up every last bit of power, a few general checks and it was time to head north from Wiltshire to Scotland. Partly it was to compete at Knockhill for the first time and partly to have a bit of a break away, just me, the car and the scenery. I arrived the day before the competition, on Saturday 12th September, it being noticeably chillier than the conditions I'd left behind, oh and wet too.
With my car not having a roll cage I was unable to join in on the test day, but the circuit very kindly allowed me half a dozen laps to familiarise myself with the track. A lot happens in a short space of time, no long straights to relax and plenty of gradient changes, which fully tested the soft suspension. Sadly it bottomed out hard every lap at Duffas Dip, the new rubber lip/under spoiler sections looking decidedly shaved.
The afternoon saw various series racing, it made a nice change for me to spectate rather than organise. The circuit is brilliant for viewing, with far reaching views towards Edinburgh and the mountains.
Sunday, with signing on and scrutineering having been completed remotely and in advance I had enough time to wash the car in the Travelodge car park, apply the number stickers and head to the circuit in time for a video briefing. reduce the tyre pressures and it was time to go out. Superlap Scotland most closely resembles Time Attack, both are best thought of as multiple qualifying sessions through the day. Basically you are competing against your rivals on lap time, not on position, this way you can safely have multiple cars on track and you have plenty of track time too (unlike a sprint). Sure, you lose that thrill of wheel to wheel racing, but are less likely to pick up damage and I don't need to fit a roll cage. The other benefit for my car in particular is letting it cool down with a slow lap, before going at it again to set a fast time, this is far kinder to the car and helps the brakes in particular.
Hard to properly assess the effectiveness of the cooling mods given the lower ambient temperatures, but given that the circuit is known for being hard on brakes with big stops and no long straights I was happy with both the coolant and oil temps throughout the event (220F coolant and 235F oil). the heat haze through the bonnet vent was particularly impressive when coming off the track.
Entered into class D (classes based on power to weight), I was up against an Evo and an Impreza, not what I needed in changeable conditions. The Evo had blown its engine up so it was just myself and the Subaru. The driver and team were very friendly and shared photo and video with me through the day. Great to chat to so many people (at a distance and always with face mask) who were welcoming and seemed to appreciate the V8, a couple of whom recognised my car from this very thread! Hi to the PHer with the Seat parked opposite me.
In order to condense the story, the Subaru was just too fast for me through the day. The damp conditions didn't help, but even in the dry it was still a bit too speedy, all credit to the driver who finished 1.9 seconds ahead of me. Full semi slicks may have helped, but even then it would have been close.
Here's the video summary:
Very charitably I was given a 2nd in class award, being a bit of a tart I'll take that and will display it proudly. I really enjoyed the event, thought it was good value and best of all the car survived just fine ready for a bit of highland exploring the next day.
Here's the result of bottoming out on the front spoiler, this was new just a month before!
I stayed overnight at Stirling, which seemed nice but was a Covid ghost town. Still, I enjoyed a nice curry by myself.
Edited by Fishy Dave on Thursday 15th October 11:05
e46m3c said:
Car looks like good fun to drive and well set up. Every time I read your thread I’m back on autotrader
Thanks, it is great fun, there are plenty of cars that handle better, but it's part of the C6's leaf spring charm. I've no doubt it could be better with a bit of money spent on the suspension, but that's true of most road cars. The exchange rate is back up to 1 dollar 30, about the same as when I bought mine in 2017, so potentially the cheapest way is to pick up your own in the States and have a bit of an adventure. The Corvette Forum, ebay and the various Craigs list regions have a few cheap ones crop up from time to time.
I've seen three this year sub $10,000, manual with clean title but high miles. Before leaving the circuit Jillian Shedden (wife of Gordon) kindly drew me a map with a suggested route for the next day. There's something exciting about driving new roads (a welcome change from M4!).
I've got loads more, but you get the idea, Corvette in nice scenery. There was a fair bit of traffic on the road to Glencoe, but once I turned south along the shore of Loch Linnhe it was empty. The road surface throughout the journey was excellent, the only disappointment was a lack of places to pull over that still had a view. Many viewing spots either required the ground clearance of a 4x4 or were hidden behind trees or grass banks.
At the end of a long day I stopped overnight in Carlisle and headed home on Tuesday, thank you Scotland.
I've got loads more, but you get the idea, Corvette in nice scenery. There was a fair bit of traffic on the road to Glencoe, but once I turned south along the shore of Loch Linnhe it was empty. The road surface throughout the journey was excellent, the only disappointment was a lack of places to pull over that still had a view. Many viewing spots either required the ground clearance of a 4x4 or were hidden behind trees or grass banks.
At the end of a long day I stopped overnight in Carlisle and headed home on Tuesday, thank you Scotland.
Not much time to rest as just three days later it was off to another North Weald handling day, with some members of the Corvette Club UK as part of a Lotus On Track/Car Limits day. A nice variety of Elise, Boxster Spyder, Caterham, a McLaren and more had turned up. The day is a bargain and kind on cars too. My favourite part of the day is the afternoon when the runs are timed on the MSUK sprint layout.
I had three timed runs, all 1 minute 9 seconds, good enough to take the all three fastest times of the day! Chuffed that the old Vette did so well, passing 213,000 miles as it did so.
Had a fun drive in a Corvette C3, what a difference from my car, a proper classic and lively on those skinny tyres (a 1 min 19, I couldn't always find 2nd gear). There were 7 different Corvette's on the day, all did very well against more modern equipment.
The video is from one of my runs.
Once home I gave the car a good look over, all looked well with the rear 1144 pads getting low, but still ok. I was pleased to see that the heat sinks I had bonded to the sump were still intact and must be doing something as witnessed by the poor fly (showing the fins are in airflow).
First weekend in October and I was off to the Nurburgring, just me and the Corvette again. This was supposed to have been a trip in early May before the birth of my son, but it had to be put back of course. All credit to Hotel Zur Burg for being so reasonable at allowing me to rebook later in the year at no cost, when they could have been difficult about it. The hotel was booked later that week by Sauber for the F1. Good to see I wasn't the only C6 there.
October, in the Eifel, it's going to be cold and wet, yes? Yes, it rained on and off every day, the circuit was the most slippery I've known it. I completed two laps only, still enjoyed it but decided it wasn't worth an incident. The Friday evening alone had two motorbikes and seven cars involved in accidents, plus two red flag circuit closures.
So, instead of more lapping I did my usual favourite things, watching from various vantage points, Steak on a stone, hot chocolate at Blaue Ecke, museum, clothes buying in the shop and chatting from a distance with various car mad people from around Europe. I really do love the place, it's like nowhere else in the world.
Not being able to stop properly for a rest in Belgium or France did make a boring journey especially tedious, but I made it back just fine and was ready to spend some time at home with family!
I gave the car a service, this time opting for a lighter 5w30 oil (the recommended weight for a road Corvette), giving Millers Nanodrive a try. i changed the rear pads for a fresh set of Mintex 1144, the discs are fine.
With the rolling and bottoming out so pronounced at Knockhill it was time to do something about my lack of stiffness
As a recap, I have the soft 'base' leaf springs, with slightly firmer Z06 shocks and middle ground Z51 anti roll bars. Not wanting to spoil the ride on the road I decided to buy a used front spring from the Z51 model, these are plentiful on the used market in the States.
Spring rates for those interested are here: https://parsbrorc.com/?page_id=300
You can see that a Z51 front spring is rated at 526 lbs, versus the 420 I have at present. Strangely the base model rear spring is slightly stiffer than the Z51, so that doesn't need changing. By sheer good luck one of the drivers (Chris Tilly) who races in the CSCC was changing to a coil over set up and gifted me his C5 Z51 front spring (same part no. as the C6 Z51), thanks very much.
It's easy enough to change over, with the spring perches in better shape on the new spring. For now I've adjusted the ride height by eye only, at some stage I will corner weight the car (I need to buy new scales).
Visually the springs are identical aside from a part number, so the difference must come from the make up of the composite.
I sadly cancelled my entry to the Snetterton Time Attack round in October; just too busy at work and I needed to spend more time at home too.
Finally, in the last few days the radiator has started leaking, I suspect the pounding the front cradle got at Knockhill and the Carousel when the car bottomed out has probably stressed a weld, so a cheapy, all alloy rad of the same design I have already is on its way ($200).
I had three timed runs, all 1 minute 9 seconds, good enough to take the all three fastest times of the day! Chuffed that the old Vette did so well, passing 213,000 miles as it did so.
Had a fun drive in a Corvette C3, what a difference from my car, a proper classic and lively on those skinny tyres (a 1 min 19, I couldn't always find 2nd gear). There were 7 different Corvette's on the day, all did very well against more modern equipment.
The video is from one of my runs.
Once home I gave the car a good look over, all looked well with the rear 1144 pads getting low, but still ok. I was pleased to see that the heat sinks I had bonded to the sump were still intact and must be doing something as witnessed by the poor fly (showing the fins are in airflow).
First weekend in October and I was off to the Nurburgring, just me and the Corvette again. This was supposed to have been a trip in early May before the birth of my son, but it had to be put back of course. All credit to Hotel Zur Burg for being so reasonable at allowing me to rebook later in the year at no cost, when they could have been difficult about it. The hotel was booked later that week by Sauber for the F1. Good to see I wasn't the only C6 there.
October, in the Eifel, it's going to be cold and wet, yes? Yes, it rained on and off every day, the circuit was the most slippery I've known it. I completed two laps only, still enjoyed it but decided it wasn't worth an incident. The Friday evening alone had two motorbikes and seven cars involved in accidents, plus two red flag circuit closures.
So, instead of more lapping I did my usual favourite things, watching from various vantage points, Steak on a stone, hot chocolate at Blaue Ecke, museum, clothes buying in the shop and chatting from a distance with various car mad people from around Europe.
I really do love the place, it's like nowhere else in the world.Not being able to stop properly for a rest in Belgium or France did make a boring journey especially tedious, but I made it back just fine and was ready to spend some time at home with family!
I gave the car a service, this time opting for a lighter 5w30 oil (the recommended weight for a road Corvette), giving Millers Nanodrive a try. i changed the rear pads for a fresh set of Mintex 1144, the discs are fine.
With the rolling and bottoming out so pronounced at Knockhill it was time to do something about my lack of stiffness
As a recap, I have the soft 'base' leaf springs, with slightly firmer Z06 shocks and middle ground Z51 anti roll bars. Not wanting to spoil the ride on the road I decided to buy a used front spring from the Z51 model, these are plentiful on the used market in the States.
Spring rates for those interested are here: https://parsbrorc.com/?page_id=300
You can see that a Z51 front spring is rated at 526 lbs, versus the 420 I have at present. Strangely the base model rear spring is slightly stiffer than the Z51, so that doesn't need changing. By sheer good luck one of the drivers (Chris Tilly) who races in the CSCC was changing to a coil over set up and gifted me his C5 Z51 front spring (same part no. as the C6 Z51), thanks very much.
It's easy enough to change over, with the spring perches in better shape on the new spring. For now I've adjusted the ride height by eye only, at some stage I will corner weight the car (I need to buy new scales).
Visually the springs are identical aside from a part number, so the difference must come from the make up of the composite.
I sadly cancelled my entry to the Snetterton Time Attack round in October; just too busy at work and I needed to spend more time at home too.
Finally, in the last few days the radiator has started leaking, I suspect the pounding the front cradle got at Knockhill and the Carousel when the car bottomed out has probably stressed a weld, so a cheapy, all alloy rad of the same design I have already is on its way ($200).
Edited by Fishy Dave on Thursday 15th October 16:58
Fishy Dave said:
As a recap, I have the soft 'base' leaf springs, with slightly firmer Z06 shocks and middle ground Z51 anti roll bars.
Forgive my possible ignorance, but I thought the whole point of the Corvette suspension was it's a transverse composite leaf spring, so no need for an upright spring, and handily no need for an anti roll bar?Or do they add an additional anti-roll bar so you can tweak roll stiffness without changing spring rate? Although again I thought you could do that by adjusting the 2 mounting points of the leaf spring?
Once I took the time to learn about the set-up (as opposed to repeating the Clarksonisms) I thought it was a really impressive solution
Great to see one being used, I'm 50/50 on the vent, but it's a big thumbs up for having the minerals to drill a hole in your bonnet! I'm planning on putting ITBs on one of my cars at some point down the line, so cutting a big rectangle out of the bonnet I'll be sure to think of your bravery
SturdyHSV said:
Forgive my possible ignorance, but I thought the whole point of the Corvette suspension was it's a transverse composite leaf spring, so no need for an upright spring, and handily no need for an anti roll bar?
Or do they add an additional anti-roll bar so you can tweak roll stiffness without changing spring rate? Although again I thought you could do that by adjusting the 2 mounting points of the leaf spring?
Once I took the time to learn about the set-up (as opposed to repeating the Clarksonisms) I thought it was a really impressive solution
Great to see one being used, I'm 50/50 on the vent, but it's a big thumbs up for having the minerals to drill a hole in your bonnet! I'm planning on putting ITBs on one of my cars at some point down the line, so cutting a big rectangle out of the bonnet I'll be sure to think of your bravery
You are right that the leaf is better at resisting roll, but presumably to make the spring stiff enough to eliminate an ARB the ride would be too harsh. The ARBs are quite thin in diameter which further helps with weight. Some good info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_springOr do they add an additional anti-roll bar so you can tweak roll stiffness without changing spring rate? Although again I thought you could do that by adjusting the 2 mounting points of the leaf spring?
Once I took the time to learn about the set-up (as opposed to repeating the Clarksonisms) I thought it was a really impressive solution
Great to see one being used, I'm 50/50 on the vent, but it's a big thumbs up for having the minerals to drill a hole in your bonnet! I'm planning on putting ITBs on one of my cars at some point down the line, so cutting a big rectangle out of the bonnet I'll be sure to think of your bravery
I hadn't realised that Volvo used this recently.
The C6 doesn't have two mounting points, just the one.
I'm with you, I like the composite leaf, it's a good solution and one I will be sticking with. Adjustable dampers would be nice though, if funds allowed.
I am also 50/50 on the bonnet vent, most of the time I wish I'd not done it, but there is no doubt in my mind it has helped with coolant and oil temps on track. Once all the hundreds of Time Attack stickers are applied the vent will be disguised and more in keeping.
Edited by Fishy Dave on Friday 16th October 10:56
Really enjoyed reading the update and you are doing a great job of persuading me to try North Weald.
How are you finding the Z06 shocks on the road? I’m going to order the C6 z51 arbs but torn between Bilstein or Z06 shocks. American forums seem to mainly focus on lowering and making the car as stiff as possible which I do not consider ideal with our uneven and broken road surfaces. The C5 already has a tendency to skip over bumps.
How are you finding the Z06 shocks on the road? I’m going to order the C6 z51 arbs but torn between Bilstein or Z06 shocks. American forums seem to mainly focus on lowering and making the car as stiff as possible which I do not consider ideal with our uneven and broken road surfaces. The C5 already has a tendency to skip over bumps.
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