Batteries dead after 5 years
Discussion
No, this is not hypothetical but a new scandal in France. In 2012 a man purchased a Peugeot Ion for €11,285. The battery is guaranteed for 5 years or 30,000, whichever comes first. Fair play I suppose, but by March 2017 he had done 60,000 miles and the batteries failed, so he went to the dealers for advice, thinking it would be easy to resolve. But no, a new battery was needed at a cost of €17,750. Peugeot, all heart, offered him a 30% discount or €5,200 against a new electric car. He contacted a French magazine and they worked out that over the 60,000 miles his "consumption" had worked out at €18 per 60 miles, or the equivalent of 21 litres per 100 miles. If my poor maths is correct that equated to about 18 mpg for a small car which would do well over 50mpg. Yes I know things have moved on since then, but I certainly will be keeping my hands in my pockets until I see where this is leading us.
It a bit disingenuous to lump the costs of the replacement batteries into the cost of fuelling the car over it's lifetime. If an ICE car had a catastrophic engine failure (á la Porsche and BMW a few years ago) outside of warranty then it would be seen as a one-off cost of however many thousands to replace it.
Better to look at the total cost of ownership over the lifetime - which in this case is stratospherically high. Certainly if batteries routinely start failing at this sort of mileage/age then there is an issue. If it is a one-off then while annoying and expensive for the customer it is not really an issue that the wider public needs to be overly worried about.
Better to look at the total cost of ownership over the lifetime - which in this case is stratospherically high. Certainly if batteries routinely start failing at this sort of mileage/age then there is an issue. If it is a one-off then while annoying and expensive for the customer it is not really an issue that the wider public needs to be overly worried about.
It's almost as if engine and drivetrain failures never happen outside warranty on ICE cars. Huh.
Run a car outside warranty, you risk losing it due to mechanical failure. Whatever fuels it, compressed dinosaurs or electrons. It's the probability here that counts - it's a low probability risk so most of us don't worry about having a contingency if it happens. Given the numbers of electric cars failing compared to ICE cars, I'd say the risk is lower with an electric car. But it's still there, and it might get you. All there is to it really. Could always get the bus if the risk of car ownership is too great.
Run a car outside warranty, you risk losing it due to mechanical failure. Whatever fuels it, compressed dinosaurs or electrons. It's the probability here that counts - it's a low probability risk so most of us don't worry about having a contingency if it happens. Given the numbers of electric cars failing compared to ICE cars, I'd say the risk is lower with an electric car. But it's still there, and it might get you. All there is to it really. Could always get the bus if the risk of car ownership is too great.
Monkeylegend said:
I have heard of a few instances recently where battery packs have failed.
I've heard of (more than) a few instances where petrol engines have failed too... it'll be interesting to see how third-party warranty companies treat EVs. That'll give a good indication of actual failure rates/costs. Here we go, 3 Nissan Leaf battery packs had failed in Europe out of 35,000 as of March 2015:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150323-...
I'll look for something more up to date.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150323-...
I'll look for something more up to date.
kambites said:
Monkeylegend said:
I have heard of a few instances recently where battery packs have failed.
I've heard of (more than) a few instances where petrol engines have failed too... it'll be interesting to see how third-party warranty companies treat EVs. That'll give a good indication of actual failure rates/costs. What the dealers don't say is buy an electric car and we can guarantee that in a few years time you will have to spend a lot of money replacing battery packs if you keep it longer term. Most mfg's don't give a 10 year battery warranty as per Tesla, and leasing the battery as an alternative costs money.
Can you imagine buying a new ICE car and being told you also need to pay an £X per month because you are only leasing the engine
ICE can and will last much longer.
Monkeylegend said:
ICE can and will last much longer.
It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the change that is coming. Car ownership is changing too. You are expecting the purchase and ownership of new cars that can be run for decades and the purchase of older cars to continue to be a normality but actually owning cars will be the preserve of the very few in years to come. Leasing cars will become the norm with cars older than 3-5 years getting recycled.
The Future is not just about changing from ICE to EV and other alternative propulsion methods but also about car ownership itself and how we commute and travel. Autonomous vehicles you do not own, only call upon, vehicles you lease for set periods from days, weeks, months to a couple of years...long term use will die. Old cars on the roads will become a thing of the past.
Travel by car will be a monthly expense similar to a mobile phone contract. You won't actually own a car. Simply pay for the use of one.
There are the usual replies above, but in over 50 years of car ownership I have never had an engine fail on me. I've rebuilt two one for more power and the other because it had done substantial mileage, but in the last 25 years I've paid out £4,000 only in car repairs - and I change my cars every 150,000 miles. Yes, i guess servicing is dearer, but still considerably less than battery packs it seems. The last rebuilt engine cost only £6,000. But I accept thatthe world is changing whether we want it to or not but I'm still not yet convinced in the economies of EVs.
This scare story was always mentioned about the battery packs in Toyota Hybrids.
What's actually transpired is that replacement battery packs are available for far less than was originally quoted.
Here's a link to US dealer replacement prices: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078138_toyot...
As an example, a 2011 Prius batter will cost $4,080, less $1,350 which is $2,730, or £2,111
However, go outside the dealer network and prices are considerably less, about a quarter according to this: https://www.torquenews.com/1083/what-s-fair-price-...
The upshot of all that, is that battery pack replacement will get cheaper in time. It's also a lot less labour intensive than an engine rebuild or indeed, general annual maintenance. Add in fuel savings and things probably fall in favour of the EV overall.
What's actually transpired is that replacement battery packs are available for far less than was originally quoted.
Here's a link to US dealer replacement prices: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078138_toyot...
As an example, a 2011 Prius batter will cost $4,080, less $1,350 which is $2,730, or £2,111
However, go outside the dealer network and prices are considerably less, about a quarter according to this: https://www.torquenews.com/1083/what-s-fair-price-...
The upshot of all that, is that battery pack replacement will get cheaper in time. It's also a lot less labour intensive than an engine rebuild or indeed, general annual maintenance. Add in fuel savings and things probably fall in favour of the EV overall.
Edited by LG9k on Tuesday 13th November 12:38
Coolbanana said:
Monkeylegend said:
ICE can and will last much longer.
It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the change that is coming. Car ownership is changing too. You are expecting the purchase and ownership of new cars that can be run for decades and the purchase of older cars to continue to be a normality but actually owning cars will be the preserve of the very few in years to come. Leasing cars will become the norm with cars older than 3-5 years getting recycled.
The Future is not just about changing from ICE to EV and other alternative propulsion methods but also about car ownership itself and how we commute and travel. Autonomous vehicles you do not own, only call upon, vehicles you lease for set periods from days, weeks, months to a couple of years...long term use will die. Old cars on the roads will become a thing of the past.
Travel by car will be a monthly expense similar to a mobile phone contract. You won't actually own a car. Simply pay for the use of one.
That car and battery pack are ancient tech (from 2009, like a Nokia vs an iPhone) and this is also one of the first cases of this happening. Out over over 1million EVs.
It's so rare it makes headlines.
How many ICE cars have catastrophic failures after 6 years on the road? So many you it does not even make the news.
It's so rare it makes headlines.
How many ICE cars have catastrophic failures after 6 years on the road? So many you it does not even make the news.
gangzoom said:
lowdrag said:
No, this is not hypothetical but a new scandal in France. In 2012 a man purchased a Peugeot Ion for €11,285.
The iON was close to £20k UK price in 2012, so if you cannot get the orginal price of the car right than what ever else you quote is just pointless....ElectricSoup said:
It's almost as if engine and drivetrain failures never happen outside warranty on ICE cars. Huh.
Run a car outside warranty, you risk losing it due to mechanical failure. Whatever fuels it, compressed dinosaurs or electrons. It's the probability here that counts - it's a low probability risk so most of us don't worry about having a contingency if it happens. Given the numbers of electric cars failing compared to ICE cars, I'd say the risk is lower with an electric car. But it's still there, and it might get you. All there is to it really. Could always get the bus if the risk of car ownership is too great.
But engines last far longer, Almost never fail if well maintained and tend to outlast the car it is fitted to. If you put an ICE car in storage for 10 years, chances are it will work, only needing a change of oil and rubber drive belts (And a new battery :P).Run a car outside warranty, you risk losing it due to mechanical failure. Whatever fuels it, compressed dinosaurs or electrons. It's the probability here that counts - it's a low probability risk so most of us don't worry about having a contingency if it happens. Given the numbers of electric cars failing compared to ICE cars, I'd say the risk is lower with an electric car. But it's still there, and it might get you. All there is to it really. Could always get the bus if the risk of car ownership is too great.
A complete engine rebuild by a specialist on an Alfa v6 costs around £3500. less than a quarter of an ICE battery replacement.
And trust me, as someone who works with battery powered tech on a daily basis (Li-ion, Ni-CAD, NI-MH, lead etc) it is never a case of "If they fail", Always when they fail. Approx 10% of our laptop batteries don't last beyond the warranty period(2 years). after 5 years only 40% of them still last longer than an hour. At 10 years old, 10% still hold a charge if you are lucky. Compare that to an ICE car. I bet 90% of cars on the road today that are 10 years old still have the original engine and not had significant engine work. 9% of them have had a catastrophic failure due to poor servicing or extreme mileage.
UPS Batteries must be replaced every 5 years and only a percentage of them actually make it to the renewal time.
Every mobile phone I have ever owned has been replaced, not because it is old or outdated, but because the battery degrades to under 50% of orignal capacity. The phone I use today is the oldest phone i have ever owned and is 4 years old. The battery hasn't lasted a full day for around 6 months now.
If a laptop comes out of storage and it has been in longer than a year, there is a 50/50 chance it will ever hold a charge again. I have even seen macbook batteries balloon out after being stored flat.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff