A Rusty Ford Fiesta

[Rule]

Thanks guys!

[Barrie c 66]

I'm another 53 year old fart who is loving this build, good luck with finding somewhere soon.

[Last Visit]

Great car Rule, that's some talent you have there.

20+ years ago I'd have loved to have had something like this and whilst not to my current taste I am acutely aware that your mechanical abilities far far outshine mine.

I doff my cap to you.

[mholt1995]

Eyersey1234 said:

Thanks for the update Rule, hope you can find somewhere soon. May I ask which steering wheel is in it as I can't quite place which Ford its come out of.

It's from the last gen Focus

[oobster]

Also known as the Roland Rat steering wheel!

Nice work OP, enjoying reading your progress.

[Greendubber]

oobster said:

Also known as the Roland Rat steering wheel!

Nice work OP, enjoying reading your progress.

Couldn't unsee that ratty face once it was pointed out on my old car! (MK3 facelift ST3)

[Eyersey1234]

Thanks for the explanation. Does look like his face now you come to mention it lol

[The Mad Monk]

Rule said:

Little update.
Currently going through a house move so had to rush and piece the fiesta back together to get it moved.
I haven’t found a new property for my self, and couldn’t find any units available to rent, so had to no choice but to leave it on my grandads drive until something pops up.

So, presumably no further work until appropriate premises turn up?

That's a shame.

[BigMacDaddy]

Latecomer to this thread but the further into it I've read the more I'm intrigued to see how the car eventually turns out

Eagerly awaiting the next update/instalment

[deadtom]

I have mixed feelings.

I always admire workmanship and the care of old cars, indeed my favourite topics to read on here are of that ilk, and I appreciate that we all like different things, and the world would be a very boring place if we all liked the same thing.

However, this is always with the proviso highlighted by a previous poster:

Cloudy147 said:

Impressive work..... if it's legal and safe, then I'll be enjoying seeing what you do next.

In fact it needn't even be legal, I would settle for safe.

Is there any convincing argument that stance and stretch is safe?

Do suspension systems like this have any sort of redundancy? Is there any sort of failsafe to prevent the suspension dropping and the steering wheels ending up inside the arches?

Are any companies making tyres designed to work with sidewalls at that angle, or has there been any legitimate research into what level of sidewall angle is safe?

If there has been research into this then I genuinely would like to read it. Technical is good.

Do what you like when it's only your neck on the line, or for that matter others who share and equally value your scene, but when someone feels their own freedom of automotive stylistic expression trumps the safety of everyone else around them, that goes beyond creative differences and into the realm of profound twuntery.

edit to add: in the spirit of the 'st sandwich' method of criticism I thought I should end it on a high note and say that the actual work done does look really good, I even quite like that outlandishly coloured anodising.

Also, have you noticed any loss of torsional rigidity by removing the front slam panel? I'd be surprised if it didn't play some part in holding the front suspension turrets apart under compression.

Edited by deadtom on Tuesday 30th July 15:06

[Rule]

deadtom said:

I have mixed feelings.

I always admire workmanship and the care of old cars, indeed my favourite topics to read on here are of that ilk, and I appreciate that we all like different things, and the world would be a very boring place if we all liked the same thing.

However, this is always with the proviso highlighted by a previous poster:

Cloudy147 said:

Impressive work..... if it's legal and safe, then I'll be enjoying seeing what you do next.

In fact it needn't even be legal, I would settle for safe.

Is there any convincing argument that stance and stretch is safe?

Do suspension systems like this have any sort of redundancy? Is there any sort of failsafe to prevent the suspension dropping and the steering wheels ending up inside the arches?

Are any companies making tyres designed to work with sidewalls at that angle, or has there been any legitimate research into what level of sidewall angle is safe?

If there has been research into this then I genuinely would like to read it. Technical is good.

Do what you like when it's only your neck on the line, or for that matter others who share and equally value your scene, but when someone feels their own freedom of automotive stylistic expression trumps the safety of everyone else around them, that goes beyond creative differences and into the realm of profound twuntery.

edit to add: in the spirit of the 'st sandwich' method of criticism I thought I should end it on a high note and say that the actual work done does look really good, I even quite like that outlandishly coloured anodising.

Also, have you noticed any loss of torsional rigidity by removing the front slam panel? I'd be surprised if it didn't play some part in holding the front suspension turrets apart under compression.

Edited by deadtom on Tuesday 30th July 15:06

The slam panel will later be reinforced by a professional as I haven’t much experience with welding.

As to the suspension, what kind of fail safe are you expecting from a hydraulic strut? Is there a fail safe on a factory spring if it snaps?

Stance/Stretch

It’s safe to a certain extent like most things?

if an owner has stanced/stretched wheels on his vehicle, then I’m pretty sure they’d be driving in a manner which respects these type of modifications. at the end of the day stance is for looks or show purpose and you’ll more than likely only see these guys cruising around as that’s what it’s intended for?
Or is the concern car enthusiast, Gary with his Perfectly straight Rep wheels, EBay special coilovers and stripped out interior using the public highway as a race track? or Is it 50 year old billy with a really powerful motor he takes out on sunny days to thrash around the public streets to get a blast or because it needs “opening up” as it sits still most of the time?

No, it’s the car enthusiast with the stanced show car with a pretty much top to bottom overhaul of his car. Just cruising around, yeah, that’s a real danger to everybody.

If you have a concern about these mods, and obviously are curious about it.. then probably best do some research if you’re that curious about its safety?
Rather my thread doesn’t turn into a debate about certain modifications.

Edited by Rule on Tuesday 30th July 21:44

Edited by Rule on Tuesday 30th July 21:46

[deadtom]

Rule said:

The slam panel will later be reinforced by a professional as I haven’t much experience with welding.

As to the suspension, what kind of fail safe are you expecting from a hydraulic strut? Is there a fail safe on a factory spring if it snaps?

Fair enough, something like a strut brace I guess?

Well, if you get a leak from one hydraulic unit, does the other lose pressure as well?

factory springs typically shorten by the length of one turn of the coil if they snap (though admittedly this does depend on the suspension type), or if the spring fails completely then the car is still held up at the other 3 corners. And even if that all fails then they have bump stops that prevent the wheel disappearing inside the arch.

Rule said:

Or is the concern car enthusiast, Gary with his Perfectly straight Rep wheels, EBay special coilovers and stripped out interior using the public highway as a race track? or Is it 50 year old billy with a really powerful motor he takes out on sunny days to thrash around the public streets to get a blast or because it needs “opening up” as it sits still most of the time?

Also examples of twuntery.

Your suggestion is that the owners of vehicles with stretched tyres only ever potter around very slowly at car meets, never have their cars heavily loaded, never drive at motorway speeds, never drive on bad road surfaces etc...

I am unconvinced. Not least because I personally know a guy who has stretched tyres on his battered old 330d, and I long ago stopped getting in the car with him as he is a fking liability. In all other ways he is a really nice guy but is very much guilty of vehicular twuntery, and I hope he never kills anybody (he has come very close before).

[Rule]

Rule said:

deadtom said:

Rule said:

The slam panel will later be reinforced by a professional as I haven’t much experience with welding.

As to the suspension, what kind of fail safe are you expecting from a hydraulic strut? Is there a fail safe on a factory spring if it snaps?

Fair enough, something like a strut brace I guess?

Well, if you get a leak from one hydraulic unit, does the other lose pressure as well?

factory springs typically shorten by the length of one turn of the coil if they snap (though admittedly this does depend on the suspension type), or if the spring fails completely then the car is still held up at the other 3 corners. And even if that all fails then they have bump stops that prevent the wheel disappearing inside the arch.

Rule said:

Or is the concern car enthusiast, Gary with his Perfectly straight Rep wheels, EBay special coilovers and stripped out interior using the public highway as a race track? or Is it 50 year old billy with a really powerful motor he takes out on sunny days to thrash around the public streets to get a blast or because it needs “opening up” as it sits still most of the time?

Also examples of twuntery.

Your suggestion is that the owners of vehicles with stretched tyres only ever potter around very slowly at car meets, never have their cars heavily loaded, never drive at motorway speeds, never drive on bad road surfaces etc...

I am unconvinced. Not least because I personally know a guy who has stretched tyres on his battered old 330d, and I long ago stopped getting in the car with him as he is a fking liability. In all other ways he is a really nice guy but is very much guilty of vehicular twuntery, and I hope he never kills anybody (he has come very close before).

No, if one strut has a leak then only that strut would fail, there’s no reason for the others struts to randomly lose pressure.. each corner has its own pump.


Like every “trend” in the car community there are always the ones done to a high standard and the ones that aren’t? and if any owner has decide to stance his car, I’m sure he’d be driving in accordance and is well aware of its capabilities as these cars are generally low & wide..
May seem one sided to you, but I don’t see any stance cars getting into major accidents, losing control and running over pedestrians, speeding or pretending to race daily commuters? Also “CaR eNthUsiaSTS”

You’re just targeting stance in particular, and are also judging it purely on appearance without any knowledge of how safe it really is...

Have you not seen drift cars being abused around a track with stretched tyres? Particularly in japan..? What do you have to say about that?

The “twuntery” here is yourself commenting such things on my thread without any knowledge in the matter.
I appreciate the concern, however, it’s been covered many times on the net already...

Edited by Rule on Wednesday 31st July 12:27

[deadtom]

Rule said:

No, if one strut has a leak then only that strut would fail, there’s no reason for the others struts to randomly lose pressure.. each corner has its own pump.

OK, good to know

Rule said:

You’re just targeting stance in particular, and are also judging it purely on appearance without any knowledge of how safe it really is...

Have you not seen drift cars being abused around a track with stretched tyres? Particularly in japan..? What do you have to say about that?

I have knowledge of basic engineering principles and of having to share the roads with people who put their fashion choices ahead of the safety of others.

Drift cars with mega stretch getting beasted on track? great, crack on. It's a good spectacle and great display of skill. If a tyre fails then the only people to get hurt are those who accept the risks of motorsport and of that event in particular.

Rule said:

The “twuntery” here is yourself commenting such things on my thread without any knowledge in the matter.
I appreciate the concern, however, it’s been covered many times on the net already...

Technical articles on the subject are notable by their absence. The first two pages of google results contain nothing but anecdotal evidence, with the closest resemblance to an engineering point of view being the manufacturers saying tyres aren't designed like that, so don't do it.

I don't want to be accused of cherry picking results to match my argument so I would urge anyone to read about it for themselves, but the answers range from 'it's probably safe to have mild stretch and camber, but no manufacturer will ever endorse it' to 'it's stupid and dangerous'.

I suspect it's the latter, but am happy to be proven wrong if there is any testing / data / qualified engineer's opinion / manufacturer's opinion / or indeed any kind of scientifically rigourous information that says otherwise. Given that I will gladly downgrade it in my mind from stupid and dangerous to merely being aesthetically questionable

Edited by deadtom on Wednesday 31st July 13:11

Edited by deadtom on Wednesday 31st July 13:12

[Rule]

deadtom said:

Rule said:

No, if one strut has a leak then only that strut would fail, there’s no reason for the others struts to randomly lose pressure.. each corner has its own pump.

OK, good to know

Rule said:

You’re just targeting stance in particular, and are also judging it purely on appearance without any knowledge of how safe it really is...

Have you not seen drift cars being abused around a track with stretched tyres? Particularly in japan..? What do you have to say about that?

I have knowledge of basic engineering principles and of having to share the roads with people who put their fashion choices ahead of the safety of others.

Drift cars with mega stretch getting beasted on track? great, crack on. It's a good spectacle and great display of skill. If a tyre fails then the only people to get hurt are those who accept the risks of motorsport and of that event in particular.

Rule said:

The “twuntery” here is yourself commenting such things on my thread without any knowledge in the matter.
I appreciate the concern, however, it’s been covered many times on the net already...

Technical articles on the subject are notable by their absence. The first two pages of google results contain nothing but anecdotal evidence, with the closest resemblance to an engineering point of view being the manufacturers saying tyres aren't designed like that, so don't do it.

I don't want to be accused of cherry picking results to match my argument so I would urge anyone to read about it for themselves, but the answers range from 'it's probably safe to have mild stretch and camber, but no manufacturer will ever endorse it' to 'it's stupid and dangerous'.

I suspect it's the latter, but am happy to be proven wrong if there is any testing / data / qualified engineer's opinion / manufacturer's opinion / or indeed any kind of scientifically rigourous information that says otherwise. Given that I will gladly downgrade it in my mind from stupid and dangerous to merely being aesthetically questionable

Edited by deadtom on Wednesday 31st July 13:11

Edited by deadtom on Wednesday 31st July 13:12

A tyre is made for a certain size rim, obviously a manufacturer is unable to comment on something that hasn’t been tested.
So someone avoiding the manufacture guidelines would mean it’s un safe?
You then do realise there are sports cars that leave the factory line with tyres outside of the manufacture recommendations?

Out of the car enthusiast that crash and increase insurance premiums for everyone else, what car trend do these individuals usually follow? Is it stance? Is it speed and the thrill? Is it running out of talent On the road? Or is it stretched tyres and a heavy load :’) ?

Why would anyone need to give supporting evidence that it’s not dangerous when there isn’t any evidence to prove that it is dangerous?

Why do I need to prove you “wrong” when you can’t prove that you’re right?

If anything there is more evidence to prove otherwise by the people using quite a substantial amount of stretch and drifting around a track without issue...
How many years has the stance / stretch trend been going on for... have you seen any reported fatalities or even minor accidents due to it? I haven’t and I am a part of this “trend” and follow it deeply.

In my opinion, this is one of the most overreacted modifications in the car community by non stance “car people”.

I my self have had stanced & stretched wheels for a good few years and not once can I report a single issue..

Edited by Rule on Wednesday 31st July 13:52

[deadtom]

Rule said:

So someone avoiding the manufacture guidelines would mean it’s un safe?

If it's a guideline based on safety, then yes, absolutely.

Rule said:

You then do realise there are sports cars that leave the factory line with tyres outside of the manufacture recommendations?

I am not aware of any but please do enlighten me

Rule said:

Out of the car enthusiast that crash and increase insurance premiums for everyone else, what car trend do these individuals usually follow? Is it stance? Is it speed and the thrill? Is it running out of talent On the road? Or is it stretched tyres and a heavy load :’) ?

one group of people doing stupid things doesn't vindicate other people's choices to do stupid things

Rule said:

Why would anyone need to give supporting evidence that it’s not dangerous when there isn’t any evidence to prove that it is dangerous?

Why do I need to prove you “wrong” when you can’t prove that you’re right?

a legitimate question, so I have asked in the general gassing section for people who are more intelligent, educated and qualified than I am for their thoughts about it.

Rule said:

If anything there is more evidence to prove otherwise by the people using quite a substantial amount of stretch and drifting around a track without issue...
How many years has the stance / stretch trend been going on for... have you seen any reported fatalities or even minor accidents due to it? I haven’t and I am a part of this “trend” and follow it deeply.

It's still a very small scene when compared to overall vehicle ownership, so you're referencing an extremely small sample size in relative terms.

Rule said:

I my self have had stanced & stretched wheels for a good few years and not once can I report a single issue..

I don't doubt it, but anecdotal evidence is of very little value to most discussions.


Anyway, I honestly did not come here to piss on your chips and ruin your thread, hence why I have tried to take the discussion away to its own thread.

Tyre fitment choices aside, keep up the good work on the fiesta and I hope you stick around and update the thread as there are clearly a lot of people who like what you are doing with it.

[DevonLad]

OP putting the safe or unsafe argument to one side, what's the reason you have chosen to go with stretched tyres?? Is it purely aesthetics or does the suspension drop dictate stretched tyres are needed to clear the arches.

Loving the build btw.

[silverfoxcc]

Very old fart here

Not my idea of a car BUT really enjoying and appreciating the 'engineering. and effort being out in

Carry on!

[Rule]

DevonLad said:

OP putting the safe or unsafe argument to one side, what's the reason you have chosen to go with stretched tyres?? Is it purely aesthetics or does the suspension drop dictate stretched tyres are needed to clear the arches.

Loving the build btw.

It’s just a type of look I suppose.. getting the arch to sit between the tyre and rim when it’s on full drop, being able to drive lower than you would do with “normal tyres” or fitting rims that wouldn’t fit your car without some sort of tyre stretch to clear the arches... people do it for all different reasons really...
I can understand it’s not to everyone’s taste and looks rather weird.. as that’s exactly what I thought when I First saw it, but I wasn’t bashing on people’s threads saying how stupid I thought it looked or started questioning them on the safety of the modification...
the more I came across this look, the more I kind of liked the look of it and wanted to do the same.
I’m a fan of stance to a certain extent and I know there are people that take it to extremes which starts to look a bit over the top in my opinion.

I think the non stance guys are just pricks really, can’t keep their opinion to them selves.
They have to throw their opinion at every opportunity of how they think it looks and how “unsafe” it is without having any knowledge in the matter.
Having been in the stance community for many years, it’s one of the most respectful and humble car community’s from owner to owner and respectful in a manner of how to drive and respect their car and the road.
Yet the ones who bash on it are happy to do 120 in a 60 because their car is “safe”...
Funny

Edited by Rule on Thursday 1st August 23:34

[Slow]

I like it.

fk the boring people ruining a perfectly good thread.