540HP NA 7L V12 3 seater

540HP NA 7L V12 3 seater

Author
Discussion

Pflanzgarten

3,807 posts

24 months

Thursday 29th September 2022
quotequote all
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/mclaren-f1-tes...

May be of interest for 360 degree photos

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Friday 30th September 2022
quotequote all
Thanks very much for the heads up! Some great details on construction, very timely information. Not often you find genuine hens teeth for sale, let alone 2 of them. Will be fascinating to see what they go for.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255598669085



Edited by F1natic on Friday 30th September 00:23

skwdenyer

16,181 posts

239 months

Friday 30th September 2022
quotequote all
Pflanzgarten said:
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/mclaren-f1-tes...

May be of interest for 360 degree photos
The technical information is interesting. In case anyone is wondering (unlikely, I know), there's nothing magical about Nomex honeycomb. It doesn't have a negative Poisson's ratio or anything similarly-whacky, so it only drapes over the complex shape because they forced it to - there will be a lot of no-longer-hexagonal cells in there smile But at only 3mm thick, it won't have made much difference structurally.

My initial thought was that I was surprised they used just Nomex however, 2 ply skins don't provide much local skin stiffness, so repeated in-and-out to the car, or bending loads, could result in long-term damage to the structure (the Nomex honeycomb is coated in a phenolic resin, which tends to flake off under high local loadings, which in turn degrades the part performance.

However, the clever part is that adhesive they used. It will tend to form fillets (which increase shear strength and reduce wall buckling) between the CF skin and the vertical walls of the honeycomb. At a 3mm core thickness, that adhesive is going to be massively contributing to additional stiffness and strength in that honeycomb - a 10mm core might well have ended up less tough over time than that 3mm core.

It all does show what extraordinary lengths they went to to save weight - they could easily have done a monolithic carbon seat at a penalty of probably less then a kg, but instead chose this route.

RandomTask007

15 posts

17 months

Wednesday 5th October 2022
quotequote all
Love the work so far. Lurking for a bit now as I've been planning a very similar build for years. Should be starting in about a year once my garage is done but plan on going Hartley 1GZFE w/ xtrac 1529.

Looking forward to your progress!

Edit:Forgot to ask,are you planning on selling casts or would you be interested in making an extra set? Would save me a lot of time smile

Edited by RandomTask007 on Friday 7th October 06:11

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Saturday 26th November 2022
quotequote all
Sometimes a project reaches a stage where the fear of getting things wrong overpowers the confidence to progress. I have been wibbling for the last few weeks making minor changes to a cardboard & MDF mockup of the cabin to get everything goldilocked. However there comes a time when you have to commit to building the design, at which point it is merely a case of pouring in materials and labour. Other projects vie for attention and often serve as justifiable distractions.

Therefore under the "measure twice cut once" philosophy currently fitting the MDF templates over the "ideal interior" part to enable a fast and accurate plug construction phase (goal is to use minimal amounts of bog to save sanding time). The mould will be built over the plug and after cure the floor sections of the plug remove so that the mould is propped up directly. Hammer blows downwards onto plug extensions will shock the plug off the mould as given the weight of the plug gravity should assist release nicely. That's the plan anyway - more photos of stuck moulds are possible however draft is generous this time.



Edited by F1natic on Saturday 26th November 03:12

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Saturday 26th November 2022
quotequote all
RandomTask007 said:
Love the work so far. Lurking for a bit now as I've been planning a very similar build for years. Should be starting in about a year once my garage is done but plan on going Hartley 1GZFE w/ xtrac 1529.

Looking forward to your progress!

Edit:Forgot to ask,are you planning on selling casts or would you be interested in making an extra set? Would save me a lot of time smile
Thanks 007, I like your powerplant combo - will be VERY effective. I look forward to your progress too!

I am not sure if any of my oddball parts will be useable to anyone else given my fairly unique setup.

_dobbo_

14,327 posts

247 months

Saturday 26th November 2022
quotequote all
"Perfection is the enemy of good"

Sometimes you just have to crack on, glad to read you are doing so, I love this build!

RandomTask007

15 posts

17 months

Wednesday 30th November 2022
quotequote all
F1natic said:
Thanks 007, I like your powerplant combo - will be VERY effective. I look forward to your progress too!

I am not sure if any of my oddball parts will be useable to anyone else given my fairly unique setup.
Thanks! Politest "no" wink

BTW, I'm -trying- to see if I can convince this seller to allow me to hire a 3D scanning company to take a scan. I'll let you know if I'm successful.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265522024675?fbclid=IwAR3...

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Wednesday 30th November 2022
quotequote all
RT007, that would be quite the score and would really boost your project. For this project the goal is not mm precision, doubt mine will ever be parked next to a real one enough to notice any differences, however would hate to spend all this time and effort to create something that looks "off" from the get go.

When I built the rear panel I had some really rough scan data from a model, however had to match a CAD surface to the rough scan data to produce the CNC cutting paths, as the NC package I use can't cut 3D scan files directly. A bigger budget would no doubt allow a timesaving direct method, however all the industrial scanning I have had done needed "post processing" to clean up surfaces anyway, so a fudge factor creeps in. With CAD based surfaces the zebra stripes will show curvature issues. On a panel such as the nose it's fairly smooth so would get a good capture, but ideally any shiny or polished surfaces need spraying with a matt coating and alignment dots applied before scan. There is a matt spray that evaporates and leaves no trace but again $$.

10kg mass for the nose panel is my new target, thanks for the link.

RandomTask007

15 posts

17 months

Thursday 1st December 2022
quotequote all
F1natic said:
RT007, that would be quite the score and would really boost your project. For this project the goal is not mm precision, doubt mine will ever be parked next to a real one enough to notice any differences, however would hate to spend all this time and effort to create something that looks "off" from the get go.

When I built the rear panel I had some really rough scan data from a model, however had to match a CAD surface to the rough scan data to produce the CNC cutting paths, as the NC package I use can't cut 3D scan files directly. A bigger budget would no doubt allow a timesaving direct method, however all the industrial scanning I have had done needed "post processing" to clean up surfaces anyway, so a fudge factor creeps in. With CAD based surfaces the zebra stripes will show curvature issues. On a panel such as the nose it's fairly smooth so would get a good capture, but ideally any shiny or polished surfaces need spraying with a matt coating and alignment dots applied before scan. There is a matt spray that evaporates and leaves no trace but again $$.

10kg mass for the nose panel is my new target, thanks for the link.
I was able to get in touch w/ the seller and they're 100% on board w/ scanning it. To me, if I'm going to invest all that time and money into doing it, I want to get as close as possible. For example, there are other V12's I could have chosen, but the 1GZ seems to have the closest exhaust note more than anything.

I agree, most of the 3D is point cloud anyway; how accurate it will be really depends on how much time I want to spend properly creating the face.

To me, if I have at least one really accurate model of one panel, it will help me properly scale everything else and build from there. I was planning on modeling everything then having all the panels CNC foam cut to build.

Edited by RandomTask007 on Thursday 1st December 19:34

roy928tt

60 posts

137 months

Monday 5th December 2022
quotequote all
Wurth Vaku 20 fine filler is the bog of choice

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Sunday 11th December 2022
quotequote all
Sounds Wurth a try! thanks Roy.

A half plane section 1:10 scale model of the interior plug can be seen sitting on the partially built fullscale example. The cornflake boxes have proven to be superb at supporting the MDF sheets while cutting out the profiles using a circular saw and jigsaw. Doesn't matter if I cut into them and they are very easy to reposition for odd shape cuts. Plus they were free and I still have lots leftover for Nerf war fortresses. Have set 2 degrees draft on these vertical faces so release should be easier - busy waiting for glue to set.

The 2 mirror image interior panels join down the entire centerline. The panels enter the interior through the door aperture and can be installed into or removed from a completed spaceframe.



Edited by F1natic on Sunday 11th December 08:36

marine boy

766 posts

177 months

Sunday 11th December 2022
quotequote all
RandomTask007 said:
Thanks! Politest "no" wink

BTW, I'm -trying- to see if I can convince this seller to allow me to hire a 3D scanning company to take a scan. I'll let you know if I'm successful.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265522024675?fbclid=IwAR3...
Pretty sure the seller is on here, he contacted me a while ago about the feasibility of making his own F1 copy with limited production run

When you get to the stage if laminating parts shout and I'll let you know what I can remember of the laminate construction as the real F1

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
Interior plug is progressing with fairly cheap materials - MDF, PVA glue, some screws and duct tape. Once all the little panels are fixed in place the edges get fillets and the plug will be sprayed with Prestec 2093 primer as with the rear panel.


normalbloke

7,401 posts

218 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
Have you seen the thread of the chap cutting the body off the Aston for a rebody?

Petrus1983

8,522 posts

161 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
normalbloke said:
Have you seen the thread of the chap cutting the body off the Aston for a rebody?
And now a McLaren VW for our trio of nut jobs I meant clever people!

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
normalbloke said:
Have you seen the thread of the chap cutting the body off the Aston for a rebody?
No I hadn't, my own project tends to make me a bit myopic. Have just lost a few hours of my life down a triple thread rabbit hole - thank you for sowing those crumbs, what an inspiring project.

And here I was thinking that my upcoming reveal of the new tool at work was going to entertain some people, looks like I will have to up my ante considerably in 2023!


Edited by F1natic on Monday 26th December 21:09

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
Petrus1983 said:
And now a McLaren VW for our trio of nut jobs I meant clever people!

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
So much to admire on these projects, they make me realise I need to spend way more money!

marine boy

766 posts

177 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
The technical information is interesting. In case anyone is wondering (unlikely, I know), there's nothing magical about Nomex honeycomb. It doesn't have a negative Poisson's ratio or anything similarly-whacky, so it only drapes over the complex shape because they forced it to - there will be a lot of no-longer-hexagonal cells in there smile But at only 3mm thick, it won't have made much difference structurally.

My initial thought was that I was surprised they used just Nomex however, 2 ply skins don't provide much local skin stiffness, so repeated in-and-out to the car, or bending loads, could result in long-term damage to the structure (the Nomex honeycomb is coated in a phenolic resin, which tends to flake off under high local loadings, which in turn degrades the part performance.

However, the clever part is that adhesive they used. It will tend to form fillets (which increase shear strength and reduce wall buckling) between the CF skin and the vertical walls of the honeycomb. At a 3mm core thickness, that adhesive is going to be massively contributing to additional stiffness and strength in that honeycomb - a 10mm core might well have ended up less tough over time than that 3mm core.

It all does show what extraordinary lengths they went to to save weight - they could easily have done a monolithic carbon seat at a penalty of probably less then a kg, but instead chose this route.
Lots of good assumptions....

The glue film we used back then was 150gsm 3M AF163, from memory the nomex was 29 grade 1/8 cell nomex, shear strength is not as a high as aluminium core but plenty strong enough for the seat

Can't ever recall a seat being damaged other than one, the seat back was broken in a huge road crash with one of the Sultan's cars out in Brunei. Car was written off

I witnessed the load test we did to proof test the seat, was done using the R and D test lab at the F1 race team. Was a long time ago so can't remember the failure load but I'm sure the seat back broke near the base of the back where it meets the sides of the seat.

F1natic

Original Poster:

456 posts

55 months

Monday 26th December 2022
quotequote all
Thank you for the detailed info. Could you give a bit of detail on the tub construction, from what I have been able to decipher the layup looked like a fully flat base structure was made first, then bonded to the spars and seat bulkhead. The glasshouse roof assembly was then attached and the main chassis element then resulted. All the panels were non load bearing, other than considerable aerodynamic loading of course.

Did the tunnels formed in the spars carry the coolant lines and electrical looms? Interested in how road debris/dust/water ingress is sealed from entry to crevices in the tub structure.

Edited by F1natic on Monday 26th December 21:24