Another VW Golf Mk2 16v
Discussion
I'm pleased to report we've managed 100 incident free miles and are only 175 miles away from major service and oil change. After that we can start exploiting the upper part of the rev range and see how good this engine is. Been keeping it between 2k and 4k all the time at the moment.
The GTI 16v does feel pretty ordinary at low rpms which I suppose is not surprising given it's based on typically versatile 80s hatchback. Compared to modern cars there's so little torque at low rpms it keeps catching me out (spoiled by boost in my TT and supercharged mx5) but I'm just having to learn to drop a gear ratio early than I'm used to.
I took it down some quiet and familiar country lanes, keeping the speed up as much as possible and leaning on the handling and brakes a bit more. Handling is pretty good. Turn in is excellent and grip is ok, though tyre squeal is evident early on. Car corners pretty flat though. With a bit more speed and cornering the car starts to come alive, but it's nothing like as fizz/bang as my old Mk1 GTI was. The horns grew in that one the moment you left the driveway - the mk2 is definitely much more grown up.
Brakes (those 239mm discs mentioned earlier in the thread) work, but are just plain scary compared to modern stuff. I will need to do something about them, they're simply inadequate.
Having up'd the max revs to 4k gives the car a bit more pace, but it still can't keep up with modern traffic yet. It's quiet funny the reaction that other motorists have. Some clearly recognise what it is (already had several thumbs up), other have no idea why this red car is creeping along the road in their way.
We've swapped the alloys on our two Golfs to make the GTI 'standard' for insurance purposes. My 20 year old son can then afford to insure it - needless to say he's rather excited.
We have replacement standard dampers and springs on order and a Novus classic line exhaust (thanks for the tip to someone earlier in the thread!). That will bring the car back to 100% original. Hopefully we can move the old exhaust and the coilovers onto someone else as they're pretty new.
Pics from today's low rev hoon!
Cheers,
Drew.
The GTI 16v does feel pretty ordinary at low rpms which I suppose is not surprising given it's based on typically versatile 80s hatchback. Compared to modern cars there's so little torque at low rpms it keeps catching me out (spoiled by boost in my TT and supercharged mx5) but I'm just having to learn to drop a gear ratio early than I'm used to.
I took it down some quiet and familiar country lanes, keeping the speed up as much as possible and leaning on the handling and brakes a bit more. Handling is pretty good. Turn in is excellent and grip is ok, though tyre squeal is evident early on. Car corners pretty flat though. With a bit more speed and cornering the car starts to come alive, but it's nothing like as fizz/bang as my old Mk1 GTI was. The horns grew in that one the moment you left the driveway - the mk2 is definitely much more grown up.
Brakes (those 239mm discs mentioned earlier in the thread) work, but are just plain scary compared to modern stuff. I will need to do something about them, they're simply inadequate.
Having up'd the max revs to 4k gives the car a bit more pace, but it still can't keep up with modern traffic yet. It's quiet funny the reaction that other motorists have. Some clearly recognise what it is (already had several thumbs up), other have no idea why this red car is creeping along the road in their way.
We've swapped the alloys on our two Golfs to make the GTI 'standard' for insurance purposes. My 20 year old son can then afford to insure it - needless to say he's rather excited.
We have replacement standard dampers and springs on order and a Novus classic line exhaust (thanks for the tip to someone earlier in the thread!). That will bring the car back to 100% original. Hopefully we can move the old exhaust and the coilovers onto someone else as they're pretty new.
Pics from today's low rev hoon!
Cheers,
Drew.
Edited by drewwa on Tuesday 16th June 14:05
The car should still feel fairly eager before extending it- as they are only a sniff over 1000kgs.
The KR motor does need revs to give its best though. Only just getting going @ 4k. Needs working harder than an 8v without doubt
If you get your K Jet system pressure checked & tweak the control pressure by drilling out the brass cap on the back of the Warm up regulator (WUR mod) then you’ll be safe sneaking some more ignition advance- to 8 or 9degs base timing which will make quite a noticeable difference. 2% co at idle via the mixture screw & it’ll be good as gold.
The KR motor does need revs to give its best though. Only just getting going @ 4k. Needs working harder than an 8v without doubt
If you get your K Jet system pressure checked & tweak the control pressure by drilling out the brass cap on the back of the Warm up regulator (WUR mod) then you’ll be safe sneaking some more ignition advance- to 8 or 9degs base timing which will make quite a noticeable difference. 2% co at idle via the mixture screw & it’ll be good as gold.
chrismc1977 said:
Needs working harder than an 8v without doubt
One of those oft quoted internet clichés. The 16v motor makes more torque than the 8v motor throught the rev range - even at idle 
golfmk2power by ash_ashy_mo, on FlickrSpeedgelb said:
chrismc1977 said:
Needs working harder than an 8v without doubt
One of those oft quoted internet clichés. The 16v motor makes more torque than the 8v motor throught the rev range - even at idle golfmk2power by ash_ashy_mo, on FlickrSpeedgelb said:
One of those oft quoted internet clichés. The 16v motor makes more torque than the 8v motor throught the rev range - even at idle
golfmk2power by ash_ashy_mo, on Flickr
Not at all.golfmk2power by ash_ashy_mo, on FlickrIf you want to extract the most from a 16v then you have to rev it out...that’s from having owned several
I haven’t (incorrectly) said the 8v is more torquey at all.
chrismc1977 said:
The car should still feel fairly eager before extending it- as they are only a sniff over 1000kgs.
The KR motor does need revs to give its best though. Only just getting going @ 4k. Needs working harder than an 8v without doubt
If you get your K Jet system pressure checked & tweak the control pressure by drilling out the brass cap on the back of the Warm up regulator (WUR mod) then you’ll be safe sneaking some more ignition advance- to 8 or 9degs base timing which will make quite a noticeable difference. 2% co at idle via the mixture screw & it’ll be good as gold.
16v doesn't need working harder, it wants to work harder an loves having it's redline tickledThe KR motor does need revs to give its best though. Only just getting going @ 4k. Needs working harder than an 8v without doubt
If you get your K Jet system pressure checked & tweak the control pressure by drilling out the brass cap on the back of the Warm up regulator (WUR mod) then you’ll be safe sneaking some more ignition advance- to 8 or 9degs base timing which will make quite a noticeable difference. 2% co at idle via the mixture screw & it’ll be good as gold.
Sound advice on the setup, that's exactly what is used to use as a base setup on any 16v i worked on.
This is also essential reading
https://www.clubgti.com/forums/index.php?threads/h...
Oh an for those with the MFA reading 99.9MPG I am fairly certain that can usually be fixed by taking the clocks out and making sure the vacuum line into the back of the clocks is correctly attached as they have a habit of falling off. this is what drives the mpg calculator. The other end is in the engine bay the smaller T piece that runs through the bulkhead, not to be confused with the vacuum line which runs to the ECU which is to control the ignition advance.
hope this helps.
Thanks for all the tips! The WUR mod is on my list of things to do once happy the car is basically sound overall. I definitely put the hose on the back of the dashpod... but maybe the pipe is leaking somewhere else - another thing to check!
I remember all the 8v v 16v torque conversations back in my Club GTI days and remember that graph back in the 80s.The debate went on for years.
I have to say... facts not withstanding, the 16v doesn't (subjectively) feel as eager to me from low revs as I remember my 8v cars being. I'd have to drive them back to back as I've not had one since 2009 and memory is a funny old thing.
I presume that graph is at full throttle, so I wonder if the 16v perhaps isn't quite so responsive at part throttle settings low in the rev range? Not sure though. It's definitely perking up as we hit 4k and it feeling like the engine is just coming alive at that point... the car seems almost disappointed that we've changed up... like it's saying... "Awww... just getting to the good stuff!"
Cheers,
Drew.
I remember all the 8v v 16v torque conversations back in my Club GTI days and remember that graph back in the 80s.The debate went on for years.
I have to say... facts not withstanding, the 16v doesn't (subjectively) feel as eager to me from low revs as I remember my 8v cars being. I'd have to drive them back to back as I've not had one since 2009 and memory is a funny old thing.
I presume that graph is at full throttle, so I wonder if the 16v perhaps isn't quite so responsive at part throttle settings low in the rev range? Not sure though. It's definitely perking up as we hit 4k and it feeling like the engine is just coming alive at that point... the car seems almost disappointed that we've changed up... like it's saying... "Awww... just getting to the good stuff!"
Cheers,
Drew.
drewwa said:
Thanks for all the tips! The WUR mod is on my list of things to do once happy the car is basically sound overall. I definitely put the hose on the back of the dashpod... but maybe the pipe is leaking somewhere else - another thing to check!
I remember all the 8v v 16v torque conversations back in my Club GTI days and remember that graph back in the 80s.The debate went on for years.
I have to say... facts not withstanding, the 16v doesn't (subjectively) feel as eager to me from low revs as I remember my 8v cars being. I'd have to drive them back to back as I've not had one since 2009 and memory is a funny old thing.
I presume that graph is at full throttle, so I wonder if the 16v perhaps isn't quite so responsive at part throttle settings low in the rev range? Not sure though. It's definitely perking up as we hit 4k and it feeling like the engine is just coming alive at that point... the car seems almost disappointed that we've changed up... like it's saying... "Awww... just getting to the good stuff!"
Cheers,
Drew.
Yes exactly- it’s all too easy to quote marketing graphs as some kind of gospel. Reading between the lines- VW were always going to show the 16v motor as ‘better’ overall in a visual formatI remember all the 8v v 16v torque conversations back in my Club GTI days and remember that graph back in the 80s.The debate went on for years.
I have to say... facts not withstanding, the 16v doesn't (subjectively) feel as eager to me from low revs as I remember my 8v cars being. I'd have to drive them back to back as I've not had one since 2009 and memory is a funny old thing.
I presume that graph is at full throttle, so I wonder if the 16v perhaps isn't quite so responsive at part throttle settings low in the rev range? Not sure though. It's definitely perking up as we hit 4k and it feeling like the engine is just coming alive at that point... the car seems almost disappointed that we've changed up... like it's saying... "Awww... just getting to the good stuff!"
Cheers,
Drew.
I’ve had experience of both 8v & 16v- standard & also both modified with increased displacement with a decent bit of track work.
In the real world a good stock 8v feels punchy & quite linear In its power delivery from the word go up to 5.5k- the 16v more cammy by comparison & typically really beginning to stretch its legs the more you pile the revs on. To be expected with the extra valve area & breathing from a 16v head however.
As the graph alludes to- the 16v advantage increases with increasing RPM- hence that they welcome being revved harder, & you need to drive them accordingly.
modded 2L 16v > modded 2L 8v > Stock 1.8 16v ~ modded 1.8 8v > Stock 1.8 8v.
16v responded well to a bit of time/effort setting it up properly- & the 2L blocks were an excellent way to bolt-in extra performance. Gave the motor the torquey feeling that was a bit lacking in 1800 guise thanks to the power being up at the top end
Final bits and pieces for returning the car to 100% original have arrived.
Original height 16v springs with OE style Bilstein shocks (about as close as you can get to OEM now). These are to replace the coilovers that are on the car. These aren't too bad now, but they lower the car too much (even on their highest setting) for me. Lots of folks seem to lower their cars and complain about standard suspension being soft and wallowy, but I suspect most have never experienced their car on 'new' standard suspension as it came from the factory.
Along with that lot is the Novus Classic Line exhaust as recommended on this thread. Very nice quality overall and definitely looks the part in terms of OEM-ness.
I've also got a complete hose kit to replace all the tired stuff on the car. We're hoping to get all that lot done on Saturday! What's left is just minor tidy up, small bits of trim and a really good clean, polish, treatment etc etc!
Cheers,
Drew.
Original height 16v springs with OE style Bilstein shocks (about as close as you can get to OEM now). These are to replace the coilovers that are on the car. These aren't too bad now, but they lower the car too much (even on their highest setting) for me. Lots of folks seem to lower their cars and complain about standard suspension being soft and wallowy, but I suspect most have never experienced their car on 'new' standard suspension as it came from the factory.
Along with that lot is the Novus Classic Line exhaust as recommended on this thread. Very nice quality overall and definitely looks the part in terms of OEM-ness.
I've also got a complete hose kit to replace all the tired stuff on the car. We're hoping to get all that lot done on Saturday! What's left is just minor tidy up, small bits of trim and a really good clean, polish, treatment etc etc!
Cheers,
Drew.
Great to see you out and enjoying it, looks ace on the road.
I think you'll be pleased with the suspension, on my 16v I went from a lowered setup to new oe and it transformed it. I did leave my uprated ARB's on however, these are great on a mk2 as they sharpen up the handling with little impact on ride.
Shame about the brakes, my 1.3 has 239mm solid discs and drums at the back and that brakes well, it's quite involved moving from 239mm to 256mm (more so than 256 - 280) but there's plenty of good info on Club GTI
I think you'll be pleased with the suspension, on my 16v I went from a lowered setup to new oe and it transformed it. I did leave my uprated ARB's on however, these are great on a mk2 as they sharpen up the handling with little impact on ride.
Shame about the brakes, my 1.3 has 239mm solid discs and drums at the back and that brakes well, it's quite involved moving from 239mm to 256mm (more so than 256 - 280) but there's plenty of good info on Club GTI
pistolpedro said:
Great to see you out and enjoying it, looks ace on the road.
I think you'll be pleased with the suspension, on my 16v I went from a lowered setup to new oe and it transformed it. I did leave my uprated ARB's on however, these are great on a mk2 as they sharpen up the handling with little impact on ride.
Shame about the brakes, my 1.3 has 239mm solid discs and drums at the back and that brakes well, it's quite involved moving from 239mm to 256mm (more so than 256 - 280) but there's plenty of good info on Club GTI
Yes... it's definitely a bit of faff going from 239 to 256. Can't go any bigger as I want the option of using the 14" bottletop alloys when I can get my hands on a set.I think you'll be pleased with the suspension, on my 16v I went from a lowered setup to new oe and it transformed it. I did leave my uprated ARB's on however, these are great on a mk2 as they sharpen up the handling with little impact on ride.
Shame about the brakes, my 1.3 has 239mm solid discs and drums at the back and that brakes well, it's quite involved moving from 239mm to 256mm (more so than 256 - 280) but there's plenty of good info on Club GTI
Cheers,
Drew.
So, as always, things didn't go quite to plan today, but good progress was made.
We started on the suspension. Both rear coilovers came out... fine.
But we discovered that the new dampers didn't have the top plates.
Nothing for the springs to be compressed into, so that was it for the suspension today. We messed up here by not checking, but it hadn't occurred to either of us that we'd need additional parts on top of what we'd ordered. Ho hum.
So the coilovers had to go back on. Fortunately they're almost new and in good order.
Getting the exhaust off was the pig it normally is, but we got there in the end. A couple of side by side comparisons. The exit on the old one is ridiculously huge... though the new one seems tiny!
Fitting the exhaust was much easier. Smaller and lighter overall, it fitted like a glove - thumps up for the recommendation on the Novus Line - it's quality. Slotted into place and hung nicely.
With the suspension back on the car for now, we decided to do the hose kit - replacing all the main hoses in the car with fresh new stuff. In most cases the originals were still in place and many had survived well. On inspection two had significant cracks and were accidents waiting to happen. Massive peace of mind now.
With that all done we topped up with proper coolant, ran up to temperature and waited for the fans to kick in. All seemed good.
Time for a run.
And what a difference. You can now have a conversation in the car and hear all the induction noise from the engine rather than the boom/drone from the back of the car. Fabulous - really happy with the change!
My son came out in his mildly tweaked 1.6 CL (head skim, weber carb, GTI cam and exhaust) and we had a little drag down the bypass from 2k to 4.5k in 3rd gear. Cars were neck and neck! Needless to say he was quite chuffed with that.
End result looks like this, very happy with progress!
Cheers,
Drew.
We started on the suspension. Both rear coilovers came out... fine.
But we discovered that the new dampers didn't have the top plates.
Nothing for the springs to be compressed into, so that was it for the suspension today. We messed up here by not checking, but it hadn't occurred to either of us that we'd need additional parts on top of what we'd ordered. Ho hum.So the coilovers had to go back on. Fortunately they're almost new and in good order.
Getting the exhaust off was the pig it normally is, but we got there in the end. A couple of side by side comparisons. The exit on the old one is ridiculously huge... though the new one seems tiny!
Fitting the exhaust was much easier. Smaller and lighter overall, it fitted like a glove - thumps up for the recommendation on the Novus Line - it's quality. Slotted into place and hung nicely.
With the suspension back on the car for now, we decided to do the hose kit - replacing all the main hoses in the car with fresh new stuff. In most cases the originals were still in place and many had survived well. On inspection two had significant cracks and were accidents waiting to happen. Massive peace of mind now.
With that all done we topped up with proper coolant, ran up to temperature and waited for the fans to kick in. All seemed good.
Time for a run.
And what a difference. You can now have a conversation in the car and hear all the induction noise from the engine rather than the boom/drone from the back of the car. Fabulous - really happy with the change!
My son came out in his mildly tweaked 1.6 CL (head skim, weber carb, GTI cam and exhaust) and we had a little drag down the bypass from 2k to 4.5k in 3rd gear. Cars were neck and neck! Needless to say he was quite chuffed with that.
End result looks like this, very happy with progress!
Cheers,
Drew.
We hit 500 miles! The 16v has been in for its oil change, nothing unusual in the oil at all which was encouraging and all the new suspension is in place after a bit of faffing about finding all the little bits that you need for the job, which aren't included in the parts. Got there in the end.
This weekend we're going to fettle a few minor bits and pieces, give her another check over and then open up that engine bit by bit!
Underneath looks nice and clean and rust free. Give it a good poke when it was up on the ramp, just one of the jacking points needs a bit of attention alongside the sill.
Cheers,
Drew.
The 16v has been in for its oil change, nothing unusual in the oil at all which was encouraging and all the new suspension is in place after a bit of faffing about finding all the little bits that you need for the job, which aren't included in the parts. Got there in the end. This weekend we're going to fettle a few minor bits and pieces, give her another check over and then open up that engine bit by bit!
Underneath looks nice and clean and rust free. Give it a good poke when it was up on the ramp, just one of the jacking points needs a bit of attention alongside the sill.
Cheers,
Drew.
So, recent higher rev run was both good and bad...
We took it out today, got it warmed up nicely and then started extending the revs. Engines absolutely loves it, harder note from 5k revs and then it starts going loopy from 5.5k. Took it up to 6.5k after a few exploratory revs and it seemed very happy...
Then we noticed a little bit of blue smoke.
We slowed down, cruised about a bit, smoke went away... no obvious issues, but decided to return to base. We were only a couple of miles from home.
As we did so, the oil light came on and the buzzer sounded. We instantly cut the engine and coasted to the side of the road. Popped the bonnet - nothing immediately amiss. Oil on dipstick seemed as expected.
Restarted the car and ... all ok. Gently drove home with no issues.
Popped the bonnet again and had a good poke around. Found oil around the base of the air filter... and after dismantling found quite a bit of oil in the filter itself (it's one of those washable ones) which appeared to have come from the breather pipe which has two other ends, one on the head and the other from the block. Removing that pipe showed some oil inside - definitely the route to the air box. Seems like the higher revs pulled some oil along this route.
Checked wiring for the buzzer and tested it on and off - all ok and sound, which seems to indicate we had a low oil pressure situation at some point.
Now wondering if the oil pump or gauze might be clogged. Anyone give us anything else to check?
Cheers,
Drew.
We took it out today, got it warmed up nicely and then started extending the revs. Engines absolutely loves it, harder note from 5k revs and then it starts going loopy from 5.5k. Took it up to 6.5k after a few exploratory revs and it seemed very happy...
Then we noticed a little bit of blue smoke.
We slowed down, cruised about a bit, smoke went away... no obvious issues, but decided to return to base. We were only a couple of miles from home.
As we did so, the oil light came on and the buzzer sounded. We instantly cut the engine and coasted to the side of the road. Popped the bonnet - nothing immediately amiss. Oil on dipstick seemed as expected.
Restarted the car and ... all ok. Gently drove home with no issues.
Popped the bonnet again and had a good poke around. Found oil around the base of the air filter... and after dismantling found quite a bit of oil in the filter itself (it's one of those washable ones) which appeared to have come from the breather pipe which has two other ends, one on the head and the other from the block. Removing that pipe showed some oil inside - definitely the route to the air box. Seems like the higher revs pulled some oil along this route.
Checked wiring for the buzzer and tested it on and off - all ok and sound, which seems to indicate we had a low oil pressure situation at some point.
Now wondering if the oil pump or gauze might be clogged. Anyone give us anything else to check?
Cheers,
Drew.
Edited by drewwa on Sunday 5th July 13:52
Problem solved we think!
Looks like the oil was slightly overfilled - high revs drew the oil into the crank breather and then into air filter. Cleaned it all out and rechecked oil level - now slightly lower than half according to dipstick. Test drive to 4k rpms - fine, then 5, then 6 then finally red line. No smoke, no oil in air filter.
Working theory is that the sensors are ok, but the oil level being to high caused the crank to froth the oil in the sump, aerated oil holds no pressure so as that went around ... no oil pressure - explains why it was back to normal after being switched off. All seems good now. ??
We suspect the dipstick may not be right... under-reading the oil level.
Cheers,
Drew.
Looks like the oil was slightly overfilled - high revs drew the oil into the crank breather and then into air filter. Cleaned it all out and rechecked oil level - now slightly lower than half according to dipstick. Test drive to 4k rpms - fine, then 5, then 6 then finally red line. No smoke, no oil in air filter.
Working theory is that the sensors are ok, but the oil level being to high caused the crank to froth the oil in the sump, aerated oil holds no pressure so as that went around ... no oil pressure - explains why it was back to normal after being switched off. All seems good now. ??
We suspect the dipstick may not be right... under-reading the oil level.
Cheers,
Drew.
Edited by drewwa on Sunday 5th July 15:47
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