Butchering a Bertone
Discussion
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
Hi Cedric, yes I bought the car from Bjorn. I saw the car and just had to have it. It was a 3200km drive with a trailer in one hit. I didn't even drive the car just loaded it up and drove home. It was an amazing achievement by Bjorn to get it to where it was, but quite simply it wasn't drivable for many reasons. A year since owning the car it is now just about fully resolved. I will still have to do all the testing and final set-up but the basic car is now one that starts, steers, is fully road compliant, mapped for normal fuel, NVH levels reduced...
There is still a fair way to go but it has been a very interesting project to be involved in. But like any project of this magnitude, there are always things you want to improve. Over the winter I still have to complete the TUV process, I want to optimise fueling & ECU map, fit sliding windows, change the wheels and suspension set-up, fit ICV and cold start system, change diff (from 4.7:1 to 4.1:1 final drive), redesign of ARB's... I just can't wait to get the drive the thing.
Ah, I see, totally understand why you needed that car There is still a fair way to go but it has been a very interesting project to be involved in. But like any project of this magnitude, there are always things you want to improve. Over the winter I still have to complete the TUV process, I want to optimise fueling & ECU map, fit sliding windows, change the wheels and suspension set-up, fit ICV and cold start system, change diff (from 4.7:1 to 4.1:1 final drive), redesign of ARB's... I just can't wait to get the drive the thing.
. But yeah it was built like a race car, which seldom creates the best road car, its interesting to see your journey with roadifying the car. I would have though taking it through TÜV would be impossible,but it seems like its not with some work, the rules are very different compared to here though.Its still in the registry here, which is odd if it has been exported. It looks like it was registered with a K20A2, or at least thats what the papers say
.. There might have been some issues with the power to weight ratio which is limited when you register a modified car. 
CedricN said:
Ah, I see, totally understand why you needed that car . But yeah it was built like a race car, which seldom creates the best road car, its interesting to see your journey with roadifying the car. I would have though taking it through TÜV would be impossible,but it seems like its not with some work, the rules are very different compared to here though.
Its still in the registry here, which is odd if it has been exported. It looks like it was registered with a K20A2, or at least thats what the papers say.. There might have been some issues with the power to weight ratio which is limited when you register a modified car.
Getting it through the TUV in Germany is practically impossible as all material spec and build standards have to be documented and approved. But where there is a will there's a way. You are correct it is still on Swedish plates until I can get it through the TUV. The reason for the engine fitted in the Swedish papers is also as you mention (the F20C and K20A2 are identical on the outside . But yeah it was built like a race car, which seldom creates the best road car, its interesting to see your journey with roadifying the car. I would have though taking it through TÜV would be impossible,but it seems like its not with some work, the rules are very different compared to here though.Its still in the registry here, which is odd if it has been exported. It looks like it was registered with a K20A2, or at least thats what the papers say
.. There might have been some issues with the power to weight ratio which is limited when you register a modified car. 
). If it was just a case of converting a race car to a road car it would have been relatively simple. If you just take the front axle as an example, the tyres rubbed in the arches, the steering rack gaiters did not have chassis clearance, I could not apply more than 60% steering lock as the wheels would make contact with the lower wishbone, Anti-roll Bar, steering rods, caster arms and even the brake calipers. It needed a complete redesign to make work. This is just one example system of many that needed completely changing. Here are a few pics to clarify:
In this picture the caster arm hits the wheel in the original config. Also the yellow ARB blade and the steering tie rod also then made contact once I'd resolved the castor arm issue:
In order to get the castor arm clearance I basically had to remove 85mm from the arm then reweld together the new shorter arms.
Castor arm chopped then welded
You can see before and after lengths here:
The aft mounting points I then moved forward 20mm and inboard 65mm
New flanges made to move the mounting point:
Painted and test fitted:
This just relates to one component. As mentioned above I then had to come up with similar solutions for the ARB, brake caliper, steering rod, tyre clearance...
Geeks, Julian, Richard-390, Court_S & RichTT, many thanks for the positive feedback
This is exactly what i love, classic looks with modern performance 
I've got an Opel Manta stashed away (soon to move to new storage till I've got my own house) and this is exactly the plans for , though I'm planning to put some carpet in just for a bit of NVH reduction.
Please keep this updated!
I've got an Opel Manta stashed away (soon to move to new storage till I've got my own house) and this is exactly the plans for , though I'm planning to put some carpet in just for a bit of NVH reduction.
Please keep this updated!
Sf_Manta said:
This is exactly what i love, classic looks with modern performance
I've got an Opel Manta stashed away (soon to move to new storage till I've got my own house) and this is exactly the plans for , though I'm planning to put some carpet in just for a bit of NVH reduction.
Please keep this updated!
I remember my Dad having an Manta GTE when I was younger, great cars. All the best with the house move and future project I've got an Opel Manta stashed away (soon to move to new storage till I've got my own house) and this is exactly the plans for , though I'm planning to put some carpet in just for a bit of NVH reduction.
Please keep this updated!
BEN99W said:
What a great project. Love the engineering integrity and the varied ingredients.
I really liked your videos too: unspoilt by unnecessary intros, music, ads or bleating for subscribers.
Enjoy it.
Ben
If truth be told Ben, I haven't quite mastered the whole video/youtube thing yet. If I do try to make a more proper go of it, I have no plans on it going in the direction you mention. I'm in the process of trying to get a bit of guidance for the video production/editing... My aim is to create a channel with the following content:I really liked your videos too: unspoilt by unnecessary intros, music, ads or bleating for subscribers.
Enjoy it.
Ben
-Guides/top-tips for custom work and fixes on cars
-Build project videos
-Road trips and adventures around Europe with the current cars I have (mostly custom made): CLR996, Alfa, Spyder, E30 trackcar and S1-Elise. Lots of great roads on my door step but mainly plan to focus on Germany, France, Italy, Spain.
-Trackday and driving related videos: NBR, Spa and Hockenheim are my local tracks
-Manufacturing processes and factory visits: Wheel forging, fabrication, fuel farm... that sort of thing
-Video car tuner workshops such as Manthey Racing, ECU mapping/rolling road, gearbox/diff overhaul...
The flavour of video I am interested in are the likes of the Henry Catchpole, Jethro Bovingdon, Harry's Garage, Tyrells Classic workshop and Retro Power. So these types of videos are I would try to deliver. I'm not in anyway inclined to be in video and want to focus on the cars, driving, roadtrips and car related adventure side. I'm naturally an introvert so it may be difficult for my type of character to make anything remotely watchable but I'm hoping the subject matter more than makes up for my shortcomings.
Edited by CarreraLightweightRacing on Monday 19th October 22:53
Pixel Pusher said:
Terrific effort Pixel Pusher, I don't have such a magic wand or any idea how to fix my terrible pictures, so thank you I have literally jut got in from a quick session on the VLN circuit (NBR GP+Nordschleife) today, so a few more circuit shots for your pleasure.
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
Sf_Manta said:
Please keep this updated!
As requested, have widened the front (from 30mm to 70mm) and fitted some sliding windows over the last few weeks. 
Incredible build and attention to detail is awesome.
I am not a genuine Alfisti ( not now, but my last 2 cars were Alfa 156s !!) and I did a few track days with my last one at Croft in North East England...
I can understand the rationale behind putting that engine in.....
But....and of course this is only IMHO.....!!!
To me it is not an Alfa without an Alfa engine....or at least an Italian one !
I realise that the power to weight is better with the Honda engine, but surely a race tuned Busso V6 of something from the 'Alfa back catalogue' would be more appropriate.
I am aware that I am going to get criticism for this, but that is just IMO !
The 105 is one of my favourite all time cars, in fact I built a Tamiya model a few years ago.
Great thread by the. way.
I am not a genuine Alfisti ( not now, but my last 2 cars were Alfa 156s !!) and I did a few track days with my last one at Croft in North East England...
I can understand the rationale behind putting that engine in.....
But....and of course this is only IMHO.....!!!
To me it is not an Alfa without an Alfa engine....or at least an Italian one !
I realise that the power to weight is better with the Honda engine, but surely a race tuned Busso V6 of something from the 'Alfa back catalogue' would be more appropriate.
I am aware that I am going to get criticism for this, but that is just IMO !
The 105 is one of my favourite all time cars, in fact I built a Tamiya model a few years ago.
Great thread by the. way.
P5BNij said:
Still enjoying this thread immensely but apologies for a slight diversion away from the Bertone beauty with a question about the 996 below it.... I think I asked you about this before elsewhere but don't recall your answer - what diameter and width are those gorgeous Fuchs and did they fit straight onto the existing 996 hubs...? It is without a doubt the best looking 996 I've ever seen
Hi P5BNij, the wheels are genuine Fuchs in the following sizes. These will fit straight onto a 996 however please note I have altered all my suspension with fully customised components effectively pushing the front hubs out 26mm each and the rears 18mm each. So on a stock 996 they would be quite a weak offset but your could easily fit spacers to fix that. Really happy you like the car, another picture for you below 7Jx17 ET55 with 215/45r17 CUP2's 7.5kg each
9Jx17 ET55 with 255/40r17 CUP2's 7.95kg each
Paul S4 said:
Incredible build and attention to detail is awesome.
I am not a genuine Alfisti ( not now, but my last 2 cars were Alfa 156s !!) and I did a few track days with my last one at Croft in North East England...
I can understand the rationale behind putting that engine in.....
But....and of course this is only IMHO.....!!!
To me it is not an Alfa without an Alfa engine....or at least an Italian one !
I realise that the power to weight is better with the Honda engine, but surely a race tuned Busso V6 of something from the 'Alfa back catalogue' would be more appropriate.
I am aware that I am going to get criticism for this, but that is just IMO !
The 105 is one of my favourite all time cars, in fact I built a Tamiya model a few years ago.
Great thread by the. way.
Hi Paul, you are not the first and will certainly not be the last to ask. I can fully understand and appreciate your feelings as Alfaholics do some great things using the Alfa back catalogue for their engines. This engine was primarily chosen as the F20C engine held the record for producing the highest specific power output for any mass production naturally aspirated piston engine, at 123.5 HP/L, until Ferrari began production of the 458 Italia in 2010, which produced 124.5 HP/L. It revs to 9000rpm and is unbelievably strong and reliable. The car was originally designed to be a race car, so a brand new crate F20C was fitted as it will simply take all you can throw at it and just laugh at your feeble effort. They really are a very strong and special engine, hence it winning engine of the year for 5 consecutive years. A Busso would also be a wonderful choice but they just can't take the abuse. If you came and for a drive in this car and heard the noise it makes you would fully understand I am not a genuine Alfisti ( not now, but my last 2 cars were Alfa 156s !!) and I did a few track days with my last one at Croft in North East England...
I can understand the rationale behind putting that engine in.....
But....and of course this is only IMHO.....!!!
To me it is not an Alfa without an Alfa engine....or at least an Italian one !
I realise that the power to weight is better with the Honda engine, but surely a race tuned Busso V6 of something from the 'Alfa back catalogue' would be more appropriate.
I am aware that I am going to get criticism for this, but that is just IMO !
The 105 is one of my favourite all time cars, in fact I built a Tamiya model a few years ago.
Great thread by the. way.
Also some F20C's have been tuned to 1200BHP. 
RC1807 said:
Intrigued as to how / why your cars are all registered in different areas, countries, even.
They are all registered in Germany where I live apart from the Alfa*. The WIL and BKS prefix is for the local region and I have the choice of either as they recently added BKS as an option. - Regarding the Alfa, the TUV in Germany is a very difficult process (a bit like the SVA in the UK just dialed up by a whole order of magnitude). My next TUV appointment is the 11th November, when it should hopefully be sorted. It will then also have a local plate, WIL-DI15 is what I have in mind
Always love the S2000 engine since I had one for a few years. Had an MGB project for a while that I was going to do something like this with but it never got anywhere due to time (and in my case talent I’d have a lot to learn!). Nice to see someone else with the same thinking. You can supercharge them too...
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
P5BNij said:
Still enjoying this thread immensely but apologies for a slight diversion away from the Bertone beauty with a question about the 996 below it.... I think I asked you about this before elsewhere but don't recall your answer - what diameter and width are those gorgeous Fuchs and did they fit straight onto the existing 996 hubs...? It is without a doubt the best looking 996 I've ever seen
Hi P5BNij, the wheels are genuine Fuchs in the following sizes. These will fit straight onto a 996 however please note I have altered all my suspension with fully customised components effectively pushing the front hubs out 26mm each and the rears 18mm each. So on a stock 996 they would be quite a weak offset but your could easily fit spacers to fix that. Really happy you like the car, another picture for you below 7Jx17 ET55 with 215/45r17 CUP2's 7.5kg each
9Jx17 ET55 with 255/40r17 CUP2's 7.95kg each
Paul S4 said:
Incredible build and attention to detail is awesome.
I am not a genuine Alfisti ( not now, but my last 2 cars were Alfa 156s !!) and I did a few track days with my last one at Croft in North East England...
I can understand the rationale behind putting that engine in.....
But....and of course this is only IMHO.....!!!
To me it is not an Alfa without an Alfa engine....or at least an Italian one !
I realise that the power to weight is better with the Honda engine, but surely a race tuned Busso V6 of something from the 'Alfa back catalogue' would be more appropriate.
I am aware that I am going to get criticism for this, but that is just IMO !
The 105 is one of my favourite all time cars, in fact I built a Tamiya model a few years ago.
Great thread by the. way.
Hi Paul, you are not the first and will certainly not be the last to ask. I can fully understand and appreciate your feelings as Alfaholics do some great things using the Alfa back catalogue for their engines. This engine was primarily chosen as the F20C engine held the record for producing the highest specific power output for any mass production naturally aspirated piston engine, at 123.5 HP/L, until Ferrari began production of the 458 Italia in 2010, which produced 124.5 HP/L. It revs to 9000rpm and is unbelievably strong and reliable. The car was originally designed to be a race car, so a brand new crate F20C was fitted as it will simply take all you can throw at it and just laugh at your feeble effort. They really are a very strong and special engine, hence it winning engine of the year for 5 consecutive years. A Busso would also be a wonderful choice but they just can't take the abuse. If you came and for a drive in this car and heard the noise it makes you would fully understand I am not a genuine Alfisti ( not now, but my last 2 cars were Alfa 156s !!) and I did a few track days with my last one at Croft in North East England...
I can understand the rationale behind putting that engine in.....
But....and of course this is only IMHO.....!!!
To me it is not an Alfa without an Alfa engine....or at least an Italian one !
I realise that the power to weight is better with the Honda engine, but surely a race tuned Busso V6 of something from the 'Alfa back catalogue' would be more appropriate.
I am aware that I am going to get criticism for this, but that is just IMO !
The 105 is one of my favourite all time cars, in fact I built a Tamiya model a few years ago.
Great thread by the. way.
Also some F20C's have been tuned to 1200BHP. Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff