Westfield v6

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Discussion

Waitey

877 posts

222 months

Friday 27th January 2023
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sdh2903 said:
No not at all! I totally agree. Everyone I look at the current manifolds I think the same. It will happen at some point.

Ref the 3d printing. If I was keeping the original injector locations in the OEM lower manifold and just needing the adapters I would have 3d printed. But because these are now 'wet' I went alloy. The other consideration was cost. I couldnt home print them in a single piece and getting them done externally in a material that would cope was pretty expensive, comparable to the cost of the aluminium ones.
After watching this chaps vids:

https://youtu.be/hFkr3t0e4Z8

I think they’d survive ‘wet’. Great progress though.

I’ve looked at the Jenvey and Borla ITB kits for my current Ford Windsor V8 powered Cobra. They are nearly £5k just for the bodies and manifold!

Church of Noise

1,458 posts

237 months

Saturday 28th January 2023
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Can't wait to hear and see it run - must sound absolutely epic and be a blast to drive.

If you ever think about selling (as if...), give me a shout!

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Monday 13th February 2023
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Have still been chipping away at things that seemed to have taken forever. First up, whilst out I wanted to upgrade to a slightly larger alternator (60a) as although it coped ok the little 40a denso must have been borderline. Also i wanted to tidy up the engine mounts as they were a little rough and ready.

The plan was to mount the alternator off the existing pulley mount on the engine timing cover. Mocked up



Had the alt bracket and engine mounts water jet cut.



Alt bracket with it's dowel pins that will fit into the existing holes on the engine.





As the alt was now independantly mounted I needed to make up the new n/s mount. It needed to sneak inbetween the alt and the oil filter, which due to the sandwich plate for the oil cooler, was now even more in the way. I could have gone for a shorter filter but as the rocketeer sump runs at a lower capacity I wanted to keep the large filter.

Snug.



Whilst it was In for the mount tack up another slight issue cropped up. The newer engine moves the oil filler neck up to the top of the cam cover and is taller. Too tall in fact as it was fouling on the bonnet.

I did think about cutting the filler down and getting it re-welded but then on removal found it was a magnesium alloy which I'm told is incredibly difficult to weld. So I went for a different approach.



And hacked the top off a spare cap.





That should be enough to clear. I've also 3d printed a top to bond to the cap to aid removal.



Another job that needed sorting was a slight weep from the box. It was leaking from the joins in the casing. I could have attempted to repair it but as mx5 gearboxes are so cheap I just bought another.





And the engine is now in aswell. Fingers crossed for the final Bloody time.


wrayvon

38 posts

146 months

Thursday 16th February 2023
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Keep up the good work!

Jealous of your access to a 3D printer also... maybe I need to invest in one hehe

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Thursday 23rd February 2023
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wrayvon said:
Keep up the good work!

Jealous of your access to a 3D printer also... maybe I need to invest in one hehe
They are very handy. Especially for bits like the oil cap or for prototyping bits.

So engine is not far off buttoned up.

As the injector locations are different, some of the coils face the opposite way and the cam sensor being in a different location I had to reroute a fair chunk of wiring.



And tidied up



New aux belt ordered and alternator all mounted up



I had previously ran a dead head single fuel line to the front of the car with the reg and return at the tank. Jenvey and Kms both recommend using a traditional return line with the regulator after the fuel rail. So an additional kunifer solid line was ran in. All the hoses in the engine bay have been replaced with PTFE hoses and AN fittings.

Plumbing has also been ran in for the laminova. Just awaiting a pipe getting welded for the tee off for the heater pipe with the 2 sensor bosses for the coolant sensors. This did arrive last week but some numpty ordered one with the wrong thread.



I had hoped to use an off the shelf air filter from reverie, however with the fuel rails getting in the way and height being critical it just wouldn't fit. However the very helpful guys at reverie and ITG made a custom one at a lower height for no extra cost.


Don1

15,946 posts

208 months

Friday 24th February 2023
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Inspiring and depressing at the same time. The latter as I'd be so far out of my depth, you couldn't even see me! biggrin

Amazing stuff.

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Monday 27th February 2023
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Whilst waiting for bits, thought I'd take a look at a niggle I'd had ever since the start. The diff pinion had leaked ever since it was overhauled. Well I say leak it was a weep really. Even rested up over winter it wouldnt drop a drip. I'd ummed and arred even just leaving it as the level hadn't dropped but it was leaking and it shouldn't.

Weepy goodness



As the sierra diff input flange is just a bolt on flange (and doesn't disturb the pinion torque) I'd hoped to try and do it in situe but with my chassis being a narrow tunnel model there was no hope.

With the flange off can see where it was coming from.



New seal fitted and while it was out gave it an oil change, didn't really need it but daft not to while it's out as it doesn't have a drain plug so isn't the easiest to do in situe.

Diff back in.



Another task Id wanted to do for a while and made sense to do whilst the back end was apart was to add a 3rd brake light. So bought a kit from mofast and bonded it to the underside of the roll bar.



Was going to start with the final assembly and fit of the throttle bodies but at the last moment realised I had the wrong config of linkage levers. I'd been sent them set up with the centre body as the master rather than the end one. At first I thought I needed 4 but after disassembling and shuffling the levers around got it down to just 1. Thankfully as they are 30 euros each. Along with a quite frankly ridiculous postage cost of 25 euros 1 lever ended up being 48 quid.

Edited by sdh2903 on Monday 27th February 18:32

NDNDNDND

2,018 posts

183 months

Wednesday 1st March 2023
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Great thread - thanks for writing it up. I wish I had the time, skill and knowledge to mess about with cars like this. Also fascinating to see how much you know about how to get things done, including what's possible and who to contact.

I also echo requests for a video - it'd be great to hear how this thing sounds!

Justin S

3,641 posts

261 months

Wednesday 1st March 2023
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I last read on the forum before I left , you were on the first engine. That was a while ago and the 'influx' of engines has been quite impressive , in a sods law kind of way.
Not sure if you remember, that my rad also dumped its coolant within 100 miles in a similar fashion , with a standard S2000 pump. Ian was getting through them by the handful. They were all basically rubbish. Cheap for the factory to buy and change the earth for them.
I always admired your way of going slightly off normal with your builds, even if there is a few V6's now north of the border. I was looking for the number plate board in the garage smile
If I mentioned to the Mrs in building another Westfield, it would be divorce , without question. The dismay that the build caused , she would shoot me if I did it again. And she has just got a new job involving shotguns.............. best not mention it.

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2023
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NDNDNDND said:
I also echo requests for a video - it'd be great to hear how this thing sounds!
Only vid i have is from the dyno at present, hopefully this embeds properly



Edited by sdh2903 on Monday 17th April 17:58

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2023
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Justin S said:
I last read on the forum before I left , you were on the first engine. That was a while ago and the 'influx' of engines has been quite impressive , in a sods law kind of way.
Not sure if you remember, that my rad also dumped its coolant within 100 miles in a similar fashion , with a standard S2000 pump. Ian was getting through them by the handful. They were all basically rubbish. Cheap for the factory to buy and change the earth for them.
I always admired your way of going slightly off normal with your builds, even if there is a few V6's now north of the border. I was looking for the number plate board in the garage smile
If I mentioned to the Mrs in building another Westfield, it would be divorce , without question. The dismay that the build caused , she would shoot me if I did it again. And she has just got a new job involving shotguns.............. best not mention it.
Yeah theres now been loads of premature rad failures all with differing engine and water pump configurations, just cheap crap, the guy who built the new one said its just the cheapest possible imported cores that are the problem.

Yes definitly keep the mantra happy wife, happy life when theres guns involved biggrin

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2023
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So it seems like ive been treading water a bit of late, but things have started to come together a bit in the past week.

Firstly the altered coolant pipe arrived back and after a coat of paint, fitted up and the coolant refilled and bled. Pipework routing isnt perfect and not as neat as i'd like but will do for now while i see what effect the laminova has.



I'd whipped off the throttle bodies to build them up with all the o rings and get them to a baseline setup, in doing so id noticed that the levers had varying adjustment inbetween cylinders, so on one bank on end would be at the far end of adjustment whilst the other end was adjusted to the opposite end. Having spoken to KMS they were aware of a hand bent batch of link levers that were shipped whilst a machine was out of operation with varying levels of tolerance. They agreed to send me out a new batch free of charge. When they arrived the bodies were broken down and all swapped over. Things are much better now. Knocked up some gaskets ready for final installation.



I had a to-do list of things to look at on the interior too. The carpet over the tunnel was splitting at the join at the tunnet top, also as it was a single piece carpet it meant a major strip out to do a simple handbrake cable adjustment. The single piece carpet was binned and I used some 4 way stretch carpet left over from a mates camper project on the tunnel sides and some quilted vinyl left from my previous westfield for the top. Also 3d printed up some new gear lever and handbrake trims, just waiting on new gaiters arriving.



The drivers heated seat had never really worked, much to the amusement of my daughter who automatically switches hers on whenever she ventures out with me. I thought it was going to be a pad change but for a change it was a simple fix, i'd crossed 2 wires. They dont really get 'hot' but do get warm enough to make a difference when its chilly.

With the bodies now back in, sorted out the throttle cable. Luckily the KMS bodies will take jenvey bits, so I'm using the jenvey staggered throttle inputs with the link cable to join the banks, works well and easy to setup. Even managed to keep my existing cable.



Then it was time to sort the filter backplate. The air filter config had caused lots of headaches due to fuel rails being in the way, and the primary concern of bonnet clearance. It came down to really 2 choices, mount the back plate directly to the underside of the trumpet lips, or go for an airbox with a cone filter where there's room for one. As the primary reason for going for the ITBs was for the noise I didnt want to lose that by using an airbox, it may well end up being the case that it ends up too noisy and if it does it will be a future option. After ordering a couple of bits of 2mm ally same size as the filter, got to work with the holesaw.



And fitted up, along with the Intake air temp sensor



And finally test fitted with the bonnet to make sure it cleared.



Before giving up for the day I wanted to turn the engine over for the first time with the fuel pump fuse pulled to make sure I had oil pressure, which it does! Am rapidly running out of jobs now before attemting to fire it up.

MTW

448 posts

40 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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This looks great with the ITB set up. Looking forward to a video!

Pepperpots

371 posts

165 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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Definitely want to hear this running. ITBs !

wrayvon

38 posts

146 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Where did you get your seats pads from? They look good!

Car looks and sounds great smile

ronmac7

11 posts

134 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Hi, I have a Black SEIW with a red top engine, type 9 based Quaife straight cut close ratio very noisy box and the same L.S.D as you. I must say that I have really enjoyed your build, I hope there is a bit more to come yet.
Re your Hi level brake light did you run the wiring internally down through the roll bar ?.
Ron.

sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Friday 24th March 2023
quotequote all
ronmac7 said:
Hi, I have a Black SEIW with a red top engine, type 9 based Quaife straight cut close ratio very noisy box and the same L.S.D as you. I must say that I have really enjoyed your build, I hope there is a bit more to come yet.
Re your Hi level brake light did you run the wiring internally down through the roll bar ?.
Ron.
Thanks Ron.

Yes I drilled a small hole and ran the wiring inside. I know some will say I've compromised the roll bar but it's not a competition car and I couldn't deal with wires clipped to the bar.


So yesterday and a bit more time today were spent getting it running. Good news in the fact there's no coolant/fuel/oil leaks despite the new plumbing arrangements and is making good oil pressure. Sadly not all good news as it's as rough as a bag of spanners and not running on all 6. I know the throttle bodies are a big change but the base engine is the same so was hoping for it to fire up and then tweak the bodies to suit, I'd set all 6 up with a very small amount of equal butterfly opening on the bench. But am getting a bit of back firing into the inlets and I think cylinder 1 isn't firing at all. Almost feels as though the timing or firing order is way off.

I need to go through the wiring that was moved for the injectors just to confirm I've not ballsed it up and then maybe reset the bodies to full closed as it's been suggested that it's leaning out too much although tweaking the fuel on the map didn't really help with the rough running. If anyone has any experience ot tips getting an initial setup on Jenvey SF type bodies then I'm all ears!

Dan Juan

8 posts

25 months

Saturday 25th March 2023
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sdh2903 said:
Thanks Ron.

Yes I drilled a small hole and ran the wiring inside. I know some will say I've compromised the roll bar but it's not a competition car and I couldn't deal with wires clipped to the bar.


So yesterday and a bit more time today were spent getting it running. Good news in the fact there's no coolant/fuel/oil leaks despite the new plumbing arrangements and is making good oil pressure. Sadly not all good news as it's as rough as a bag of spanners and not running on all 6. I know the throttle bodies are a big change but the base engine is the same so was hoping for it to fire up and then tweak the bodies to suit, I'd set all 6 up with a very small amount of equal butterfly opening on the bench. But am getting a bit of back firing into the inlets and I think cylinder 1 isn't firing at all. Almost feels as though the timing or firing order is way off.

I need to go through the wiring that was moved for the injectors just to confirm I've not ballsed it up and then maybe reset the bodies to full closed as it's been suggested that it's leaning out too much although tweaking the fuel on the map didn't really help with the rough running. If anyone has any experience ot tips getting an initial setup on Jenvey SF type bodies then I'm all ears!
Looks like a lovely build and will go like a stabbed rat. I like the look of your custom linkage. I bought a mx5 mk1 with the 2.5l mazda v6 swapped in, running on customised triumph ITBs and megasquirt. I bought it running on 3 cylinders from a guy who had run out of patience with it. By general trial and error over a winter I got it in good enough fettle to drive to a rolling road guy, and that session improved the driveability a fair bit. It remains a "characterful" drive but daily drove it for 5 weeks when my daily died, survives traffic jams OK etc.
My advice would be:
1. Look at the state of your spark plugs - you will very quickly learn what is going on in each cylinder. If you take plugs out they are never the same when you put them back in even if you clean them so buy lots! I would be very confident you have fouled plugs (dark sooty)
2. Not sure how easy it is to bench test each plug from emerald but on the megasquirt you can take the plug and coil out and (once grounded on cam cover) ping each one which is great when understanding whether all your coils and plugs are working as intended.
3. Same for injectors - work through these if you have the capacity from the emerald to assure yourself that each is firing. Sparately, remove each injector, attach a 9v battery to each and spray through eac one with carb cleaner, you should see similar spray patterns. Do you have the correct cc/min for the injectors in your emerald map?
4. You can assume that the engine has compression on all cyl if it was a goer before, but a compression test never does any harm I guess unless you get the compresion tester stuck or rip the hose off ask me how I know. Remember when turning it over to keep throttle open.
5. If all this is showing you the right stuff, you should be in good shape. At this point I would urge you to buy a synchrometer you will be pissing in the wind without one.
6. Do you have a wideband and readout on one or both banks? I would not want to drive something like this or use it in anger without knowing my AFR, which will be very valuable in establishing a base VE map. I'm assuming yes and that for the time being you will have some open loop control on the ECU before getting rolling road. This basically means that in steady state, the ECU has a PID system to get to the AFR value that your map suggests for each combination of TPS and RPM. Thats all fine but when not tuned so well relies on being in steady state for a while for the ECU to iterate to correct fuelling. Once tuned on rolling the VE table should be optimised perfoectly for each RPM and TPS state so you have the correct instantaneous fuelling for any combo of TPS and RPM and the wideband sensor is just to check. If your throttle synchronisation between banks is correct, then you can assume that the lambda on one bank is giving the same as the other. Basically you can go as lean as 17:1 at idel if necessary and even on cruise i.e. low throttle openings low revs, but if you are driving hard you will weld the engine together if its really lean - for > 20% up to 100% TPS you will need down to 13.5:1 AFR. ITBs running on TPS only are alays a bit of a challenge to get idling consistently and nicely and it can be run ok very rich like 9:1 but it will stink and may ruin your CAT if you have one. And fould plugs quickly.
7. If all the vital signs are ok but you are running roughly (assuming engine has oil in etc etc) especially if some plugs look nasty, then this is likely to be a problem of balance (synchronisation) between bodies. Especially at idle, fractions of a degree of butterfly can make a massive relative difference in richness or leannness of any particular cylinder, and because of the buildup of slack / tension in cylinders, what looks perfect on bench is no guarantee of being OK when running engine. Also, sycnchronise when warm, as expansion of components can also have an effect! Good news is that at larger openings say >10deg, its much less sensitive so you are unlikely to have such an issue when hammer at least partly down.
8. If you have any smallish imbalance (so on synchrometer, from memory at idle youllbe looking for 3 kg/h) of more than 25% i.e. one clylinder has 4kg/h the other has 3kg/h, then the cylinder having 3kg/h will be running really rich at idle even if the others are spot on, and you will foul plugs very easily and quickly. I found in the early days when picking my car up from MOT or alignment, the lads had clearly had it idling for a while because it was running crap, front firing etc. New plugs would sort that instantly but again if you have poor synchronisation you will foul the richer plugs quickly with any normal round town type driving or idling.
9. On the road you will not be able to spend much time at >10% throttle! At least in short term, new plugs are likely to solve your probs in short term esp if you don't idle for long.
10. Your TPS is a key peice of information, and it will be inevitably at the end of one bank. If you change the synch of the throttle with TPS on it, all 5 other throttles will be on a differnt part of the VE map, if that makes sense.
11. Forgotten about advance - its quite easy to get ideas of ignition advance off WWW shouldn't affect the issues you are seeing really i.e. rough running. To get best power on higher octane you can advance most engines quite a lot under load say 35 or 40 deg. You can use low advance to keep the engine happier at idle although I'm not sure if thats so good for emissions.
12. If you have synchrometer and get the synch diallled in, assuming your maps are OK with your setup ypou may find yourself in the same position as me now. Basically, due to the buildup of slack in the system particularly with te cable between the banks, you may have to chose between perffect balance between banks at idle and up to 5%, against perfect balance the rest of the time. This wouldn't be an issue with the rigid arm link between banks that you see on many V8 with carbs, and if you had jenvey rather than a custom system there may be something that accounts for that. Don't think there is space for such a system on your engine or mine tho.. I am about to impliment a system that seeks to account for the taking up of the slack so I get decent synch at all combinations.
13. Once you are running smoothly enough happy with map not fouling plugs, driveable at all RPM/ TPS states, temperatures OK no leaks sensible AFRs, all vital signs OK, get it to a rolling road that is conversant in the ECU you have i.e. emerald.

Hope that helps any questions just shout.


sdh2903

Original Poster:

543 posts

172 months

Saturday 25th March 2023
quotequote all
Thanks Danjuan for the comprehensive info.

To answer a few points.

1. On my list to do.
2. Will do, although the coils are new ish and were working on the previous engine that was installed, swapping coils around has no effect.
3. Injectors again are les than 2k old and removed from working engine, even in #1 that im pretty certain isnt firing is getting fuel as you can see the vapour on the pre-start squirt. The one thing that i do need to check first is the injector wiring, this is the only part of the loom that needed to be extended so I need to double check the wiring is correct.
4. Brand new engine, but will do a test to confirm.
5. Have one, just wanted to at least get it running on all 6 before attempting to balance
6. wideband but only on 1 bank.
7. The link cable is good at present, the tiniest of inputs on the 'master' bank is replicated perfectly on the 'slave' The tps is indeed on the end of the 'slave' bank and has been re-calibrated.

12. no space for a rigid arm assembly. This link setup is a jenvey item and i know a few people running it very successfully.

13. Thats my plan, ideally i wanted it driveable, but at least need to make sure its running on all 6 first. My mapper is very helpful and is going to remote connect to the car next week to see if he can see anything untoward, hes done this with me in the past where ive been driving whilst hes been tweaking to ensure i have a safe map to do running in or to get it to the dyno.

Emerald have given me a list of things to do/check aswell so i will work through them, they arent convinced its sensor related, especially not the cam sensor as it should still run well enough with cam sensor disconnected, just not sequential, and disconnecting the sensor has no effect at all at present.

FNG

4,174 posts

224 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
sdh2903 said:
ronmac7 said:
Hi, I have a Black SEIW with a red top engine, type 9 based Quaife straight cut close ratio very noisy box and the same L.S.D as you. I must say that I have really enjoyed your build, I hope there is a bit more to come yet.
Re your Hi level brake light did you run the wiring internally down through the roll bar ?.
Ron.
Thanks Ron.

Yes I drilled a small hole and ran the wiring inside. I know some will say I've compromised the roll bar but it's not a competition car and I couldn't deal with wires clipped to the bar.
I wouldn't worry about a small hole.

Not sure if still the case, but used to be that the Blue Book required a small hole to be drilled in the centre of the underside of the main hoop. This enabled scrutineers to check the rollcage had correct wall thickness and hadn't been made out of tinfoil and pipe lagging.

So if a small hole is ok for UK race and rally cars, I'd be confident it's ok for yours too.