Mk2 Escort Rally Car for the road (all costs recorded)
Discussion
AW111 said:
It looks like a fun project, but a proper rally rep Escort deserves a Cosworth BDG with a pair of Webers.
Aye, there's a lot of love for the BD engine, but they are quite rare and expensive and only 2.0. I really did want +300hp and more torque. But I do have carbs!Been looking into converting the 50dco carbs to throttlebodies, anyone got any advice? will i be better with 50dcoe jenvey bodies for the same manifold as a like for like or go with taper throttlebodies or larger bodies. I had 54mm on my old Westfield and that was just a 2.0. will 48mm be small for a 2.5?
https://store.jenvey.co.uk/tbody-pair-dcoe-40-50mm...
I'll take a look at the ports when I get home. but i dont want to be messing with them.
Maybe i'll give millingtons a call and discuss, though they always seem to be busy.
I see you're going with the Millington, good choice and it probably suits the car better versus a YB.
A YB in a Mk2 does sound like fun though, but in my experience *any* big powered YB car on a RWD Escort/Sierra/similar platform isn't going to have any traction whatsoever if you give it full beans in 1st or 2nd, so it depends what you were hoping for
Fitting a modern turbo and management might actually make things *worse* in this regard, as they will generally produce much more torque lower down than versus say an old T38 or T4.
A YB in a Mk2 does sound like fun though, but in my experience *any* big powered YB car on a RWD Escort/Sierra/similar platform isn't going to have any traction whatsoever if you give it full beans in 1st or 2nd, so it depends what you were hoping for
Fitting a modern turbo and management might actually make things *worse* in this regard, as they will generally produce much more torque lower down than versus say an old T38 or T4.Niponeoff said:
So after spending 2 days with car in January I got back to the UK at the end of Feb and took it for a drive. I was still in two minds whether to keep the cossie or install the millington.
485hp must be quick, but my suspicions were that it wouldn't be. I've had fast cars and headline figures are fairly meaningless. Will it get the power down.
The answer is no. It's utterly hopeless. Ok, it was cold weather, but the roads were bone dry and I'm on 245 rears which is huge for an escort. It comes on boost so hard and ferocious that its virtually uncontrollable. The turbo is relatively laggy being a GT3071 but a lot of that was my hesitancy (fear) in planting the throttle.
I could use a smaller more modern turbo and better engine management, boost by gear, TC etc, but to be honest I don't think a turbo suits this car. I want a naturally aspirated screamer and it will be all the better for it, so the cossie is coming out.
It happens to be a pretty high spec engine too, so it's up for sale. In the right car it will be great.
Was going to ask that when I first saw it, i.e. why would someone go for a 485 bhp, very torquey engine in a lightweight car like and Escort yeah it sounds cool to say it but it also sounds like total overkill trying to deploy it and probably makes the car slower, then I saw the N/A Millington which makes way more sense.485hp must be quick, but my suspicions were that it wouldn't be. I've had fast cars and headline figures are fairly meaningless. Will it get the power down.
The answer is no. It's utterly hopeless. Ok, it was cold weather, but the roads were bone dry and I'm on 245 rears which is huge for an escort. It comes on boost so hard and ferocious that its virtually uncontrollable. The turbo is relatively laggy being a GT3071 but a lot of that was my hesitancy (fear) in planting the throttle.
I could use a smaller more modern turbo and better engine management, boost by gear, TC etc, but to be honest I don't think a turbo suits this car. I want a naturally aspirated screamer and it will be all the better for it, so the cossie is coming out.
It happens to be a pretty high spec engine too, so it's up for sale. In the right car it will be great.
300 ish bhp sounds like plenty and the power delivery much more suited to a lightweight RWD car.
Sometimes less really is more and stuff like fitting normal bushes makes sense, think we all think we want race/rally stuff for the road but then quickly realise how much hard work it is, fast road is where its at if you arent competing, easy to end up with a garage ornament you dread driving as its harsh, noisy or just plain terrifying like 485 BHP of YB is in it by the sounds of it.
Should be epic when its done.
Niponeoff said:
Aye, there's a lot of love for the BD engine, but they are quite rare and expensive and only 2.0. I really did want +300hp and more torque. But I do have carbs!
Been looking into converting the 50dco carbs to throttlebodies, anyone got any advice? will i be better with 50dcoe jenvey bodies for the same manifold as a like for like or go with taper throttlebodies or larger bodies. I had 54mm on my old Westfield and that was just a 2.0. will 48mm be small for a 2.5?
https://store.jenvey.co.uk/tbody-pair-dcoe-40-50mm...
I'll take a look at the ports when I get home. but i dont want to be messing with them.
Maybe i'll give millingtons a call and discuss, though they always seem to be busy.
To be clear, I'm not criticising your choice - a BDG is expensive, they need frequent rebuilds if used in competition, and I'd never use one in a car for regular road use.Been looking into converting the 50dco carbs to throttlebodies, anyone got any advice? will i be better with 50dcoe jenvey bodies for the same manifold as a like for like or go with taper throttlebodies or larger bodies. I had 54mm on my old Westfield and that was just a 2.0. will 48mm be small for a 2.5?
https://store.jenvey.co.uk/tbody-pair-dcoe-40-50mm...
I'll take a look at the ports when I get home. but i dont want to be messing with them.
Maybe i'll give millingtons a call and discuss, though they always seem to be busy.
I just know a few RS Escorts in the historic rally scene, and love them.
An Escort made a great rally car - Ford only had to do similar to what your car has-
Replace the engine with a Cosworth unit
Replace the gearbox with a ZF
Replace the front cross member with the world cup unit
Throw out the rear end and and replace it with the 5 link
Replace the front suspension and all the brakes
Seam weld the shell so it didn't break at the door openings
I've been talking to bremax about a loom, the chap there was very helpful and we had a long chat on the phone.
Before they do their thing I will need to make sure I have all the electrical components and accessories installed, so they can terminate everything.
It's far cheaper and easier doing it from the outset than upgrades later on, so for instance fitting a paddle shift or traction control would be better now as the additional cost is lower and much better finished.
Before they do their thing I will need to make sure I have all the electrical components and accessories installed, so they can terminate everything.
It's far cheaper and easier doing it from the outset than upgrades later on, so for instance fitting a paddle shift or traction control would be better now as the additional cost is lower and much better finished.
Are you planning on running digital/programmable ignition with the carbs? Alfaholics have had good success with that path. Not at 300hp though!
What do you reckon the YB is worth? 7.5:1 compression! Is it a complete slug off-boost? If the turbo came off I'm wondering if that engine makes even 100hp. So the turbo is being relied on to provide 4-5 times the NA engine's output...
What do you reckon the YB is worth? 7.5:1 compression! Is it a complete slug off-boost? If the turbo came off I'm wondering if that engine makes even 100hp. So the turbo is being relied on to provide 4-5 times the NA engine's output...
braddo said:
Are you planning on running digital/programmable ignition with the carbs? Alfaholics have had good success with that path. Not at 300hp though!
What do you reckon the YB is worth? 7.5:1 compression! Is it a complete slug off-boost? If the turbo came off I'm wondering if that engine makes even 100hp. So the turbo is being relied on to provide 4-5 times the NA engine's output...
Does seem a bit low, but i'm relying on the information from the previous owner. it is still on the weber L8 though.What do you reckon the YB is worth? 7.5:1 compression! Is it a complete slug off-boost? If the turbo came off I'm wondering if that engine makes even 100hp. So the turbo is being relied on to provide 4-5 times the NA engine's output...
A 205 block 2wd engine is around 8k on ebay, all dependent on condition and spec of course. People seem to still like the original webers too.
205 block, 4wd head and 2wd manifold are supposed to be the best combination, outside of alloy and YBD blocks of course.
On the milly its an electronic distributor, running off the back of the oil pump.
turbospud said:
i would be for ditching the quaife gearbox if your going to be using it on the road a lot,
even with a bit of track use its a horrible option
Aye, but its going to be a pneumatic paddle shift system.even with a bit of track use its a horrible option
I have another car with an uprated gearbox and I was told to fit straight gears 1 to 4, but that would be terrible in a road car with a radio, AC etc. However a rally car with a cage, is ok in my book!
The road orientation for this car will consist of rubber bushes, a bit of strategic sound deadening (to reduce not eliminate) retain the opening windows, steering wheel functions, maybe a wee bit of carpet and some more road orientated seats and things like the sprung clutch. If i do get fed up of the noise, quaife do a helical gear set for these.
I wont be driving the kids to school in it, but it will do the odd track day, sunday morning hoon and a few ford meets/shows.
The CWP is 3.444.
Ratios are:
2.24
1.694
1.333
1.15
1
0.89
This works out as:
I don't think that is too bad, I have thought about getting the engine in and running before fully stripping so i can get the ratios right as a paper exercise might not tell the full story, especially with engine characteristics and me being a complete novice.
But remember, it might be used on the road, but its not going to used for daily shopping trips.
I have thought about this type of car and my regret for sellng the equally as impractical westfield and I decided this would be suitable replacement, which is arguably more practical.
Ratios are:
2.24
1.694
1.333
1.15
1
0.89
This works out as:
I don't think that is too bad, I have thought about getting the engine in and running before fully stripping so i can get the ratios right as a paper exercise might not tell the full story, especially with engine characteristics and me being a complete novice.
But remember, it might be used on the road, but its not going to used for daily shopping trips.
I have thought about this type of car and my regret for sellng the equally as impractical westfield and I decided this would be suitable replacement, which is arguably more practical.
Pneumatic shifter.
Quaife kindly sent me the drawing for the gearbox setup with the actuator. Most of the quaife drawings are commercially available it seems so there is no confidentiality with this. MME use a bearing/rod arrangement which will probably be better so i can retain the use of the shifter if required.
Anyway, i managed to buy the gearbox actuator bracket from ebay for 25 quid. This will give me the same centreline.
I put it all into CAD and everything should fit with a 32/50 actuator set at 25/25 (RS 721-3644), using 8mm rod end. The quaife bracket uses a 6mm x 35mm pin so will need an 6/10 bush for that.
It looks like item 4 is a special arm for the actuator setup and uses an M14 threaded socket. This isn't threaded in my box. So i'll need to make a suitable pin - but that's doable.
Quaife kindly sent me the drawing for the gearbox setup with the actuator. Most of the quaife drawings are commercially available it seems so there is no confidentiality with this. MME use a bearing/rod arrangement which will probably be better so i can retain the use of the shifter if required.
Anyway, i managed to buy the gearbox actuator bracket from ebay for 25 quid. This will give me the same centreline.
I put it all into CAD and everything should fit with a 32/50 actuator set at 25/25 (RS 721-3644), using 8mm rod end. The quaife bracket uses a 6mm x 35mm pin so will need an 6/10 bush for that.
It looks like item 4 is a special arm for the actuator setup and uses an M14 threaded socket. This isn't threaded in my box. So i'll need to make a suitable pin - but that's doable.
Those ratios look better than mine. Mine has a 1:1 top, which equates to about 62/63 mph at 3000rpm, so motorway cruising is either slowish or noisey at higher rpm.
I also find the long first gear with bigger/wider tyres than a typical rally car (giving longer effective gearing still) a pain, makes pulling away from a standstill a bit tricky. You look to have a super long first also so not sure if this will be an issue for you.
I also find the long first gear with bigger/wider tyres than a typical rally car (giving longer effective gearing still) a pain, makes pulling away from a standstill a bit tricky. You look to have a super long first also so not sure if this will be an issue for you.
Niponeoff said:
Aye, but its going to be a pneumatic paddle shift system.
I have another car with an uprated gearbox and I was told to fit straight gears 1 to 4, but that would be terrible in a road car with a radio, AC etc. However a rally car with a cage, is ok in my book!
The road orientation for this car will consist of rubber bushes, a bit of strategic sound deadening (to reduce not eliminate) retain the opening windows, steering wheel functions, maybe a wee bit of carpet and some more road orientated seats and things like the sprung clutch. If i do get fed up of the noise, quaife do a helical gear set for these.
I wont be driving the kids to school in it, but it will do the odd track day, sunday morning hoon and a few ford meets/shows.
i removed the tractive box and pnematic system,and its one of the quieter sequentials,I have another car with an uprated gearbox and I was told to fit straight gears 1 to 4, but that would be terrible in a road car with a radio, AC etc. However a rally car with a cage, is ok in my book!
The road orientation for this car will consist of rubber bushes, a bit of strategic sound deadening (to reduce not eliminate) retain the opening windows, steering wheel functions, maybe a wee bit of carpet and some more road orientated seats and things like the sprung clutch. If i do get fed up of the noise, quaife do a helical gear set for these.
I wont be driving the kids to school in it, but it will do the odd track day, sunday morning hoon and a few ford meets/shows.
even going helical gears your still left with the smack of the gearchange,its ok when your on it but when fannying around its a pain
Enjoying this thread and slightly embarrassed to say that some of the items/parts are over my head despite owning my Mk2 RS2000 since 1995. It's like another car, that just happens to be the same shape (at least from the back), but I'll be following with great interest. I'll start my own slightly more boring 'standard car' thread soon as I'm hoping to get it back on the road over the next year or so.
RC1807 said:
Yikes, I just did a quick tally to stop myself from getting carried away with thoughts on a Mk 2 RS 2000
You're currently in for GBP 56k and change, with a YB for sale.
Oof.
Aye, I'll update the first post with the full tally. I always read project threads and no one ever puts cost. I'll also list the vendors so others can source similar parts. If I make mistakes along the way others can hopefully make a saving. You're currently in for GBP 56k and change, with a YB for sale.
Oof.
There's one or two other bits not itemised which I'll list, for instance I bought a blue stripe because I saw a car I liked with one, which is the exact width of a broadstripe. Why pay £50 when its available for £15.
I also bought compomotive hub caps but the wheels are revolution! Previous owner gave me wrong info!
One other point to keep in mind is for me, time is worth more than money. I'm away for months and home for a couple of weeks so I don't always have the luxury of measuring, waiting or trying first. Otherwise I'll never get ought done!
Edit:
I just came across this for sale:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/ClassicFordsForSale/...
I think mine is a significantly higher spec too. A 2.0 millington non RS escort was up for 52k recently which needed work and a non RS millington escorts built by a reputable builder will be 100k plus.
If I can do a good job, there will be some value in it at least.
Edited by Niponeoff on Friday 31st March 22:17
Niponeoff said:
Does seem a bit low, but i'm relying on the information from the previous owner. it is still on the weber L8 though.
A 205 block 2wd engine is around 8k on ebay, all dependent on condition and spec of course. People seem to still like the original webers too.
205 block, 4wd head and 2wd manifold are supposed to be the best combination, outside of alloy and YBD blocks of course.
On the milly its an electronic distributor, running off the back of the oil pump.
Good luck with the sale. That's a neat looking solution for the dizzy A 205 block 2wd engine is around 8k on ebay, all dependent on condition and spec of course. People seem to still like the original webers too.
205 block, 4wd head and 2wd manifold are supposed to be the best combination, outside of alloy and YBD blocks of course.
On the milly its an electronic distributor, running off the back of the oil pump.
Skyedriver said:
Interesting, I see the Millington comes with 4 Ramair socks on the inlets. I'm no expert but am learning fast as I'm trying to sort out filtering on a V6 at the moment and I read that the socks are a severe restriction on flow and can get sucked onto the inlet almost blocking flow.
Correct. Just consider them as storage solutions. They won't feature on the day it turns a wheel.Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff