Cayman S engine failure and how Porsche will deal with you.
Discussion
Hi to all,
This is going to be a long opening to the thread and I hope Porsche are reading this. I think it reflects on them badly.
First off, I bought a brand new Porsche Cayman S in 2006, ran it in really carefully, treated it with kid gloves, main dealer serviced on time and low mileage but the smoking which started at about 15k hasn't stopped (I was told off the cuff at the dealership that these engines do smoke and burning some oil was usual). Only problem was the oil consumption kept rising to the point I had further investigations carried out and now I've authorised a strip down 2 cylinders (5 & 6) are heavily scored. This is on a car that had done just 28k careful miles on it and never been near a track. It was my weekend car and a treat to myself for working hard over the years.
Initially I wasn't up for the strip down as the Main Dealer wanted me to sign for a full rebuild at my expense before Porsche GB would even commit to any goodwill gesture and in any event an endascope (borescope) inspection had already found the damage and reason for the oil consumption. This was in March. Not wanting to damage the car further I left the vehicle with the dealership and started making enquiries.
Porsche GB were adamant that despite the fact that the Dealership had identified the problem they wouldn't commit to any goodwill gesture.
Obviously the car was now out of warranty and by virtue of moving house twice in the previous year or so I didn't receive or know about the extended warranty. Porsche have made no comment on this and still wouldn't commit to any figures. Until I authorised a strip down they would commit and the dealership wouldn't strip the car until I signed for a rebuild. It's what they call 'backing you into a corner'.
Off went a letter or two to Porsche GB but still the same response.
After this I start making my own investigations. Oh, this isn't such an uncommon problem, in fact a third party company has produced a rebarrelling kit to solve the problem at well below the cost Porsche is quoting me to rebuild. Problem is I can't make a decision of which way to jump as Porsche won't give a figure until I've stripped the engine.
OK, lets write to Porsche GmbH and excalate the issue. Maybe the parent Company will have something better to offer and will be less stonewalling in their attitude. Oh, was I wrong on this one! I sent letter and email after email asking if they had at least received my communication but I get zero replies. Ultimately I started telephoning Porsche in Germany and tracking down the right department. Yes, they have my letters, yes they have passed them on to Porsche AG and they are being discussed with Porsche GB and the Dealership (which came as news to them as they neever heard a peep from Porsche during this period). Okay then, I'll call Porsche AG. " We don't have that number" came the continued reply from Porsche GmbH. "Yes, were passed your letters and email on but we don't have any telephone numbers or contact names, we just don't have them" was their continued reply. Even convincing them I wasn't that gullible still got me the same response.
After 6 weeks I get a reply from Porsche GB who said they had discussed matter with Porsche in Germany but their answer remained the same. They even copy me an email which Porsche Germany supposedly sent to me (I never received any such reply, in fact no replies from Porsche GmbH at all).
One of use clearly has to budge and clearly Porsche have decided that it's NEVER going to be them. The DP at the dealership is however a bit more helpful and without the need to make a full commitment an engine strip down is authorised.
Just as thought, cylinders 5 & 6 totally shot - heavy bore wear. Nothing else to say, no reason behind the failure so they contact Porsche to see what goodwill they will offer. The upshot of all of this is that their goodwill gesture is now specifically calculated from the date when the engine is stripped down not from when I brought the car into the dealership for investigation. Porsche are prepared to stump up the parts but I'm starring down the barrels of a £4,000 bill, frankly for what I see as an engineering fault which has been plaguing the car for 2-3 years.
I write to Porsche GB again putting my case yet again (you bet I feel pretty strongly about this) and they write back today stating that they see no reason to move on the offer, oh and by the way, you've just 2 days to accept the offer or it will be withdrawn and another calculation made (let me say at this point, no one had ever said their offer was subject to an acceptance period).
Those I know who previously worked in the Porsche Dealership Channel are quite shocked at the change in Porsche customer care. When I first discussed these issues with them they were adamant that Porsche would make the repair without charge but more telephone calls outside of the channel is starting to show a different picture and what appears to be a quantum change in customer care.
It seems that Porsche can't see or don't want to see my side of the argument. This is an engineering fault and one that reared it's nasty little head 10k or maybe 15k miles ago. Don't get me wrong, cars need maintenance and some things inevitably wear out but I'm finding this isn't perhaps an isolated instances of bore wear and given the fact that it's been progressive I don't see why Porsche want me to pick up a considerable part of the bill. The only thing I'm guilty of is walking into a Porsche showroom and buying a brand new Cayman. It was a delight then but these feelings have now changed considerably and thoughts of another Porsche purchase (which once was strongly on the cards - a 4S) has evaporated.
Now that lot's on the table a few questions to get the thread rolling:
1. Cylinder wear on Cayman S Gen1 engines. Isolated instance or are there lots more that should make perspective purchasers wary of Porsche?
2. Are Porsche right (I don't think so)? Should I cheerfully accept the bill and go get my car back after missing it for 6 months.
What I think this all shows is a Company that wishes to keep it's clients at a distance. After 15 years running my own business I've never dealt with a Company who isn't prepared to go the extra mile for it's clients until now. I was told they would bend over backwards for me but it seems I'm bending over forwards for them. Is this the chiming bell that signifies all has changed at VW owned Porsche? It seems to me it is.
Where's the ownership feeling that driving a Porsche gives you? Mine's gone.
Update:
Porsche wouldn't shift. Had to swallow and accept the labour charges (I'm supposed to feel grateful!!!). Even a letter to Porsche Great Britain Ltd MD Geoff Turral came back with the same response (not directly from him although I was told he read it). They certainly seem to only see their side of the issue.
Pictures of the bore(s) attached (if this works)
This is going to be a long opening to the thread and I hope Porsche are reading this. I think it reflects on them badly.
First off, I bought a brand new Porsche Cayman S in 2006, ran it in really carefully, treated it with kid gloves, main dealer serviced on time and low mileage but the smoking which started at about 15k hasn't stopped (I was told off the cuff at the dealership that these engines do smoke and burning some oil was usual). Only problem was the oil consumption kept rising to the point I had further investigations carried out and now I've authorised a strip down 2 cylinders (5 & 6) are heavily scored. This is on a car that had done just 28k careful miles on it and never been near a track. It was my weekend car and a treat to myself for working hard over the years.
Initially I wasn't up for the strip down as the Main Dealer wanted me to sign for a full rebuild at my expense before Porsche GB would even commit to any goodwill gesture and in any event an endascope (borescope) inspection had already found the damage and reason for the oil consumption. This was in March. Not wanting to damage the car further I left the vehicle with the dealership and started making enquiries.
Porsche GB were adamant that despite the fact that the Dealership had identified the problem they wouldn't commit to any goodwill gesture.
Obviously the car was now out of warranty and by virtue of moving house twice in the previous year or so I didn't receive or know about the extended warranty. Porsche have made no comment on this and still wouldn't commit to any figures. Until I authorised a strip down they would commit and the dealership wouldn't strip the car until I signed for a rebuild. It's what they call 'backing you into a corner'.
Off went a letter or two to Porsche GB but still the same response.
After this I start making my own investigations. Oh, this isn't such an uncommon problem, in fact a third party company has produced a rebarrelling kit to solve the problem at well below the cost Porsche is quoting me to rebuild. Problem is I can't make a decision of which way to jump as Porsche won't give a figure until I've stripped the engine.
OK, lets write to Porsche GmbH and excalate the issue. Maybe the parent Company will have something better to offer and will be less stonewalling in their attitude. Oh, was I wrong on this one! I sent letter and email after email asking if they had at least received my communication but I get zero replies. Ultimately I started telephoning Porsche in Germany and tracking down the right department. Yes, they have my letters, yes they have passed them on to Porsche AG and they are being discussed with Porsche GB and the Dealership (which came as news to them as they neever heard a peep from Porsche during this period). Okay then, I'll call Porsche AG. " We don't have that number" came the continued reply from Porsche GmbH. "Yes, were passed your letters and email on but we don't have any telephone numbers or contact names, we just don't have them" was their continued reply. Even convincing them I wasn't that gullible still got me the same response.
After 6 weeks I get a reply from Porsche GB who said they had discussed matter with Porsche in Germany but their answer remained the same. They even copy me an email which Porsche Germany supposedly sent to me (I never received any such reply, in fact no replies from Porsche GmbH at all).
One of use clearly has to budge and clearly Porsche have decided that it's NEVER going to be them. The DP at the dealership is however a bit more helpful and without the need to make a full commitment an engine strip down is authorised.
Just as thought, cylinders 5 & 6 totally shot - heavy bore wear. Nothing else to say, no reason behind the failure so they contact Porsche to see what goodwill they will offer. The upshot of all of this is that their goodwill gesture is now specifically calculated from the date when the engine is stripped down not from when I brought the car into the dealership for investigation. Porsche are prepared to stump up the parts but I'm starring down the barrels of a £4,000 bill, frankly for what I see as an engineering fault which has been plaguing the car for 2-3 years.
I write to Porsche GB again putting my case yet again (you bet I feel pretty strongly about this) and they write back today stating that they see no reason to move on the offer, oh and by the way, you've just 2 days to accept the offer or it will be withdrawn and another calculation made (let me say at this point, no one had ever said their offer was subject to an acceptance period).
Those I know who previously worked in the Porsche Dealership Channel are quite shocked at the change in Porsche customer care. When I first discussed these issues with them they were adamant that Porsche would make the repair without charge but more telephone calls outside of the channel is starting to show a different picture and what appears to be a quantum change in customer care.
It seems that Porsche can't see or don't want to see my side of the argument. This is an engineering fault and one that reared it's nasty little head 10k or maybe 15k miles ago. Don't get me wrong, cars need maintenance and some things inevitably wear out but I'm finding this isn't perhaps an isolated instances of bore wear and given the fact that it's been progressive I don't see why Porsche want me to pick up a considerable part of the bill. The only thing I'm guilty of is walking into a Porsche showroom and buying a brand new Cayman. It was a delight then but these feelings have now changed considerably and thoughts of another Porsche purchase (which once was strongly on the cards - a 4S) has evaporated.
Now that lot's on the table a few questions to get the thread rolling:
1. Cylinder wear on Cayman S Gen1 engines. Isolated instance or are there lots more that should make perspective purchasers wary of Porsche?
2. Are Porsche right (I don't think so)? Should I cheerfully accept the bill and go get my car back after missing it for 6 months.
What I think this all shows is a Company that wishes to keep it's clients at a distance. After 15 years running my own business I've never dealt with a Company who isn't prepared to go the extra mile for it's clients until now. I was told they would bend over backwards for me but it seems I'm bending over forwards for them. Is this the chiming bell that signifies all has changed at VW owned Porsche? It seems to me it is.
Where's the ownership feeling that driving a Porsche gives you? Mine's gone.
Update:
Porsche wouldn't shift. Had to swallow and accept the labour charges (I'm supposed to feel grateful!!!). Even a letter to Porsche Great Britain Ltd MD Geoff Turral came back with the same response (not directly from him although I was told he read it). They certainly seem to only see their side of the issue.
Pictures of the bore(s) attached (if this works)
Edited by PistonBloke on Tuesday 27th September 20:27
Edited by PistonBloke on Thursday 13th October 14:22
Edited by PistonBloke on Thursday 13th October 14:35
See my recent thread titled "a tale of great service" (i dont know how to provide a link on my ipad) which initially had a good ending, now 450 miles later it's back in the Porsche repair shop having been recovered at roadside with lots of oil smoke from vents, ironically I was on my way to OPC to complain about the increasing amount of exhaust smoke after a major rebuild to cure scored bore (number 4) after 28000 miles.
The smoke from the vents was due to a problem with the cam covers since the rebuild, so now without the car again, so not sure how it will turn out now, they have had it a week and I don't know what they are planning to do about it yet.
I do know that feature of the design or not the amount of smoke on start up is un-acceptable to me, I could live with a little puff of blue haze, but clouds of blue choking oily smoke I cannot. I showed a video of the start up smoke to the dealer and asked how many cars they would sell if they all did that in front of prospective customers, the lack of an answer told me everything.
Hope all goes well with yours, I will watch progress with interest.
The smoke from the vents was due to a problem with the cam covers since the rebuild, so now without the car again, so not sure how it will turn out now, they have had it a week and I don't know what they are planning to do about it yet.
I do know that feature of the design or not the amount of smoke on start up is un-acceptable to me, I could live with a little puff of blue haze, but clouds of blue choking oily smoke I cannot. I showed a video of the start up smoke to the dealer and asked how many cars they would sell if they all did that in front of prospective customers, the lack of an answer told me everything.
Hope all goes well with yours, I will watch progress with interest.
At the risk of being flamed, I'm not surprised. Porsche used to be a company run by engineers who took pride in building the best sports cars they could. Now firmly run by accountants. Only need to look at the prevalence of engine failures and the changes to warranty costs/procedures that they introduced a few years ago. Interesting that they were very quiet about the disappearance of the intermediate shaft when the Gen2 cars came out.
I think the GT/RS cars will always be special but non-warranty 'normal' cars are a risky proposition (I had a similar experience with an IMS failure on a late 986 boxster as well as an engine failure on a 2005 997 C2S).
To the OP - I'm really sorry you've had to experience this. When I went through my experiences, Porsche took a number of factors into consideration including:
- age
- mileage
- nature of purchase (ie. OPC supplied or not)
- # owners
In the past, Porsche have made sizeable goodwill contributions, especially for low mileage cars purchased from new by the owner from an OPC. Sounds like you tick all these boxes (AND you flagged this issue earlier in the car's life!) but their policies seem to have changed ? Such a shame as I have no doubt these failures are down to design flaws. Shame they can't stand up behind their products.
I'm sure I'm a bit tainted by my own negative experiences, and don't mean to suggest all cars are problematic. Just think that if these cases were so rare, Porsche should cover the costs, especiallynin cases like the OP's.
Rant over
I think the GT/RS cars will always be special but non-warranty 'normal' cars are a risky proposition (I had a similar experience with an IMS failure on a late 986 boxster as well as an engine failure on a 2005 997 C2S).
To the OP - I'm really sorry you've had to experience this. When I went through my experiences, Porsche took a number of factors into consideration including:
- age
- mileage
- nature of purchase (ie. OPC supplied or not)
- # owners
In the past, Porsche have made sizeable goodwill contributions, especially for low mileage cars purchased from new by the owner from an OPC. Sounds like you tick all these boxes (AND you flagged this issue earlier in the car's life!) but their policies seem to have changed ? Such a shame as I have no doubt these failures are down to design flaws. Shame they can't stand up behind their products.
I'm sure I'm a bit tainted by my own negative experiences, and don't mean to suggest all cars are problematic. Just think that if these cases were so rare, Porsche should cover the costs, especiallynin cases like the OP's.
Rant over
Edited by Kananga on Tuesday 27th September 22:05
A car should last a reasonable amount of time, yours has not, less than 6 years and 30,000 miles. Seek legal advice or maybe get a solicitor to draft you a letter.
10k peugeots don't suffer such failures and will run 10yr/100k and a high-end BMW or merc engines tend to do 200k though BMW did have some vanos issues.
Porsche do need to buck up their ideas, warranty or not an engine should last a lot more than 30k miles if serviced as per manufacturer guidelines, hell should do 100k plus.
10k peugeots don't suffer such failures and will run 10yr/100k and a high-end BMW or merc engines tend to do 200k though BMW did have some vanos issues.
Porsche do need to buck up their ideas, warranty or not an engine should last a lot more than 30k miles if serviced as per manufacturer guidelines, hell should do 100k plus.
Swmbo fancied a vw bug, after the 993 she really fancied a yellow one so we got her one from the local KIA dealership, 07 plate 16k miles but a good price, bought in warrenty & road tax for a year...
Last week the airbag warning light comes on, no worries probably just the sensor, take the car back, given courtesy car (KIA picanto) then wait for the phone call.
Air bag f
ked. Not covered by warrenty.
Now, being a pleasant type of bloke I explained that although I expected things like clutches, brakes etc not to be covered I though this was a bit off in my most pleasant way of speaking (no really!)
Today I get a phone call, very apologetic but the long & short of it being that although this fault will cost us, it's a fraction of the price & it's a contribution that I think is fir considering we've had the car for over 9 mobths & the warrenty doesn't cover this type of failure.
Just to reiterate, this is a KIA garage who sold a 3+ year old Volkswagen beetle.
Yes its cost us (less than the price of the part never mind the labour & vat) but because they helped us out I would have no qualms about using them again.
If a KIA dealership can do this for a car they didn't even bloody build what does that tell you about the way the modern Porsche company deals with it's customers?
Last week the airbag warning light comes on, no worries probably just the sensor, take the car back, given courtesy car (KIA picanto) then wait for the phone call.
Air bag f
ked. Not covered by warrenty.Now, being a pleasant type of bloke I explained that although I expected things like clutches, brakes etc not to be covered I though this was a bit off in my most pleasant way of speaking (no really!)
Today I get a phone call, very apologetic but the long & short of it being that although this fault will cost us, it's a fraction of the price & it's a contribution that I think is fir considering we've had the car for over 9 mobths & the warrenty doesn't cover this type of failure.
Just to reiterate, this is a KIA garage who sold a 3+ year old Volkswagen beetle.
Yes its cost us (less than the price of the part never mind the labour & vat) but because they helped us out I would have no qualms about using them again.
If a KIA dealership can do this for a car they didn't even bloody build what does that tell you about the way the modern Porsche company deals with it's customers?
This type of story is sadly all too familiar on here, so I do sympathise. However, going by others' experiences reported on here I think that just £4k for a rebuilt engine at an OPC isn't bad at all.
Look at it this way - if you had taken out the extended warranty it would have cost you £1000 per year for 3 years, so you're not that much worse off and will have a rebuilt engine, the replaced components of which will carry a 2 year warranty from now.
Look at it this way - if you had taken out the extended warranty it would have cost you £1000 per year for 3 years, so you're not that much worse off and will have a rebuilt engine, the replaced components of which will carry a 2 year warranty from now.
I would invite you to visit www.planet-9.com the largest respository of Cayman information on the web. (Formerly CaymanClub.Net until nasty Porsche attorneys got involved but I digress). There are scores of posts on the site discussing failed engines, primarily for oiling related failures and rod bolt failures but also many including cylinder scoring. My own car included, my car suffered cylinder scoring because of the way that my Porsche dealership put the engine back together after an oiling/rod bolt failure. So that fact that your local dealer will put the engine back together doesn't guarantee that you won't get scoring again in the future. So far Porsche has refused to pay for my repairs so I'm currently having a detailed autopsy of the engine done by an independent shop with video/photo evidence of why the engine suffered massive scoring (high oil usage which was reported to and ignored by my local dealership) including 2 chunks out of the cylinder wall (borescope video is on the Planet-9.com site take a look).
Once the autopsy comes back Porsche will likely be receiving a demand letter from my attorney and if they ignore it they will find themselves in court. It is the only way to get Porsche to listen these days, you have to make it financially unattractive for them to continue to ignore you. Does this mean it will cost you money suing them in court? Yes, so Porsche assumes you won't do it and you'll cave in. They hold this hard line and 99% of the time it works for them.
There are alternatives and one for example is that we've reported the engine failures to the NHTSA in the US and are letting the government get involved and look things over. The Govt can force Porsche to make changes, provide refunds, longer warranties, fixes, etc. depending upon the issue. That's not financially attractive for Porsche either.
Like you, my Cayman will likely be the last Porsche I ever own because of the attitude of the company and how they deal with their customers. Again, please visit our Planet-9.com and take your time to go through the mounds of information there, hopefully you'll find some items that will help you and by all means PLEASE post your story there as well.
Thanks!
Once the autopsy comes back Porsche will likely be receiving a demand letter from my attorney and if they ignore it they will find themselves in court. It is the only way to get Porsche to listen these days, you have to make it financially unattractive for them to continue to ignore you. Does this mean it will cost you money suing them in court? Yes, so Porsche assumes you won't do it and you'll cave in. They hold this hard line and 99% of the time it works for them.
There are alternatives and one for example is that we've reported the engine failures to the NHTSA in the US and are letting the government get involved and look things over. The Govt can force Porsche to make changes, provide refunds, longer warranties, fixes, etc. depending upon the issue. That's not financially attractive for Porsche either.
Like you, my Cayman will likely be the last Porsche I ever own because of the attitude of the company and how they deal with their customers. Again, please visit our Planet-9.com and take your time to go through the mounds of information there, hopefully you'll find some items that will help you and by all means PLEASE post your story there as well.
Thanks!
masergs said:
Why on a car five years old , three years out of warranty would you expect Porsche to pay for the repairs.Either pay your money and get a warranty or pay your money when it all goes wrong.
Are you familiar with the reliability issues surrounding these engines?Under the sale of goods act in the UK a TV has to last for 5 years, would it be reasonable to expect a hardly used car to last that long?
masergs said:
yes thats why i took out a extended warranty to make sure i was covered, like any sensible person would if worried about future failures
So, build product with faults then sell customer 'insurance' against those faults. It's a good business model I'll give you that.Buy a Tiv, their reliability seems to be better than Pork these days
thegoose said:
Look at it this way - if you had taken out the extended warranty it would have cost you £1000 per year for 3 years, so you're not that much worse off and will have a rebuilt engine, the replaced components of which will carry a 2 year warranty from now.
This is how I explained it to dad, if the worst happened he's already a couple of grand up on the lack of warrenty costs.The unfortunate thing is, when the big bill does come it's never expected or prepared for.
There are some on here that will say that, well, this is what you have to expect when driving a premium brand car-if you're not putting a couple of grand away each year for maintenance it's your own fault.
But, some of the people who own cars like this don't budget for a 4 grand bill, & even if you're pretty liquid when cash comes in it often goes out, holidays, kids school fees, new tv etc etc
& even if you are a saver, you might be saving for something special-a wedding, an extension, to set up your own business etc
& when that big bill comes in it's pretty hard for none car enthusiast friends & relatives to understand how your pride & joy just set you back a year on a your life plan.
There are plenty of risks to take in life, spending money on some of the above included. It's just such a shame that buying a Porsche now seems to fall into that catagory-
A risk
This is the company porsche is now and these are the cars they build.
Whilst I empathise with you and can understand the conviction of your principles, In the scheme of owning a high performance car with one of the worlds most desireable badges, 4k is a pittance and not few off a few years warranty costs as outlined by someone else above. Drop the crusade, give yourself a break, get it fixed, sell it and then buy another porsche with warranty, an older aircooled car or something from another manufacturer that wont suffer from endogenous engine production line quality issues. Life is too short IMO. Expend you energy elsewhere, maybe making up the 4k in the process. Even if they did eventually agree to help, you will never get your time back, your anger, frustration and stress.
Whilst I empathise with you and can understand the conviction of your principles, In the scheme of owning a high performance car with one of the worlds most desireable badges, 4k is a pittance and not few off a few years warranty costs as outlined by someone else above. Drop the crusade, give yourself a break, get it fixed, sell it and then buy another porsche with warranty, an older aircooled car or something from another manufacturer that wont suffer from endogenous engine production line quality issues. Life is too short IMO. Expend you energy elsewhere, maybe making up the 4k in the process. Even if they did eventually agree to help, you will never get your time back, your anger, frustration and stress.
masergs said:
yes thats why i took out a extended warranty to make sure i was covered, like any sensible person would if worried about future failures
Give yourself a pat on the back ! Must be nice to know you've bought such a poor quality product that you daren't own it without a warantee....Magic919 said:
Sensible advice.
Put my car in for the inspection on the morning of the 90th day of ownership (the earliest you can do it) because of threads like this.Whilst your mileage is low mileage itself is not necessarily representative of anything, and ultimately I think you're probably onto a loser trying to convince Porsche to pay out on a car that's 6 years old and outside warranty that you could've chosen to buy, I'm sorry to say.
What I will grant you though is that I agree with the spirit of your story and the comments by others saying how it takes the shine off the driving experience when major failures like this can and have been occuring on low mileage cars.
Edited by Durzel on Tuesday 27th September 23:03
masergs said:
Why on a car five years old , three years out of warranty would you expect Porsche to pay for the repairs.Either pay your money and get a warranty or pay your money when it all goes wrong.
Because an engine failing inside 5 years/30,000 miles with no track or hard use, together with widespread evidence that this is a common problem, simply shows an abysmal level of engineering from a once respected brand.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff