How easy is it to clock a 997?

How easy is it to clock a 997?

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S1MMA

Original Poster:

2,378 posts

218 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
Interesting one:

I was making an enquiry towards a 997 GT2 that I spotted, white of course - very nice Harry.

Anyway, its a 2009 model (PCM3), showing 9,500 on the clock but with no service book. Supplying dealer (non-OPC) was kind enough to text me the chassis number to confirm it's had a service as one would have been due by 2011. No problemo, easy to get another book and rectify. So I call Porsche, and the nice man confirms its been serviced in 2011, great. What milage? 27,000. WTF?

The supplying dealer was a bit shocked. They bought the car outright also it seems so now have a lemon which has been clocked.

So how easy is it to do this? And how easy is it to spot if done? Can OPC tell if a car has been played around with?

khushy

3,964 posts

218 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
"walk away"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjFzUVCQ1vM

khushy

Edited by khushy on Monday 11th June 10:39

matc

4,714 posts

206 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
S1MMA said:
Interesting one:

I was making an enquiry towards a 997 GT2 that I spotted, white of course - very nice Harry.

Anyway, its a 2009 model (PCM3), showing 9,500 on the clock but with no service book. Supplying dealer (non-OPC) was kind enough to text me the chassis number to confirm it's had a service as one would have been due by 2011. No problemo, easy to get another book and rectify. So I call Porsche, and the nice man confirms its been serviced in 2011, great. What milage? 27,000. WTF?

The supplying dealer was a bit shocked. They bought the car outright also it seems so now have a lemon which has been clocked.

So how easy is it to do this? And how easy is it to spot if done? Can OPC tell if a car has been played around with?
I'm amazed any dealer would buy something as expensive as a GT2 - or any car for that matter - and not carry out the basic checks. All they would have had to do was make the same phone call as you did.

I would say either the Porsche dealer has the wrong information ref. the mileage on their system (not uncommon) or the selling dealer is fully aware and trying to cover it up.

Steve996

1,240 posts

214 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
My understanding of this shady practise suggests that it's not difficult for the pro's to do this, I am always very careful with checking in on the mileage and history of any car I am considering buying (as you have been) as there are very few cars that cannot be done by folks with the right software, interfaces and know-how. It's an unfortunate reality that anything made by man can be broken by man also, especially if there is financial gain to be had.

The only real check I am aware of that can be done is to validate the running hours (stored separately to the miles)against the displayed mileage and then doing a reality check on the average MPH, however the smarter clockers can adjust the running time record also to compensate so even that isn't foolproof. I know of a few well known porsche indies who actually run this check when buying in stock. If the car has a ridiculously low average speed then alarm bells ring.

ps. my background is instrumentation and control systems so I like to know how stuff like this works!

993AL

1,936 posts

217 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
I would think that the mileage on the speedo could be changed quite easily but not so easy or even possible to match the Kilometer reading on the ECU?

S1MMA

Original Poster:

2,378 posts

218 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
khushy said:
"walk away"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjFzUVCQ1vM

khushy

Edited by khushy on Monday 11th June 10:39
I didn't walk, oh no. I ran.

matc said:
I'm amazed any dealer would buy something as expensive as a GT2 - or any car for that matter - and not carry out the basic checks. All they would have had to do was make the same phone call as you did.

I would say either the Porsche dealer has the wrong information ref. the mileage on their system (not uncommon) or the selling dealer is fully aware and trying to cover it up.
Indeed. I felt quite bad for the chap when I called him back and gave him the bad news. It's a small premium car dealer (not Porsche specialist) so he didn't really have a clue. Must have picked it up cheap and trusted the seller with no service book. And now he finds he's been shafted. I would never even consider buying anything that I can't check with a decent service history, and always check with the dealer who carried out the services to verify history. Like you say, it's only one phone call.

philcray

845 posts

202 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
Let's be honest, we have all owned plenty of cars and never "lost" the service book, and I am pretty sure that goes for most people....










Ian_UK1

1,514 posts

193 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
S1MMA said:
Interesting one:

I was making an enquiry towards a 997 GT2 that I spotted, white of course - very nice Harry.

Anyway, its a 2009 model (PCM3), showing 9,500 on the clock but with no service book. Supplying dealer (non-OPC) was kind enough to text me the chassis number to confirm it's had a service as one would have been due by 2011. No problemo, easy to get another book and rectify. So I call Porsche, and the nice man confirms its been serviced in 2011, great. What milage? 27,000. WTF?

The supplying dealer was a bit shocked. They bought the car outright also it seems so now have a lemon which has been clocked.

So how easy is it to do this? And how easy is it to spot if done? Can OPC tell if a car has been played around with?
If it was clocked from 27000 miles down to 9500, who's to say it wasn't already clocked when it was showing 27000 miles at the OPC? If someone's dishonest enough to go down this route (and has sufficient knowledge of the car's systems to change the miles) why assume they'd stop at clocking it only once? Running away from this one was definitely the right thing to do.

Henry-F

4,791 posts

244 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
We see a fair number of clocked cars in the course of a year and in the vast majority of cases the amounts involved are relatively small. They aren't cars taken from 100k mls down to 40k they have been reduced by maybe 10 or 15,000 mls. Critically, in the early part of a cars life this will have a significant effect on values. A 30k mls car overdue a service suddenly becomes 11-14k mls, not overdue anymore and on an 18 month old car no longer something that's done a bit of work relative to its peers.

Another occasion when diligent use of the system tester can pay dividends and save you from losing your pennies.

Obviously I have no knowledge of the car in question so please take my comments as general ones, not specific to this case.

Henry smile

IMac

71 posts

274 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
I read somewhere recently that the “new clockers” includes people have bought/ funded cars they could not really afford by using PCP type deals. To create a monthly payment within budget they select a very low and unrealistic annual mileage. So to remain within the contract mileage they merely adjust the mileage… as noted by Henry not necessarily a lot when the car is viewed at 80K miles, but can be significant as a % of total mileage when the car is youthful.

Spy

1,302 posts

206 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
You have to be very careful. I have heard of dishonest people on PCP/Lease turning the clock back before every service so that the car looks like it has done a few thousand miles every year with a stamped service book to match.

cptsideways

13,535 posts

251 months

Monday 11th June 2012
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Also unscrupulous leasing co's normally the small ones have a habit of adjusing them before they go into trade/auction etc

SystemParanoia

14,343 posts

197 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
cptsideways said:
Also unscrupulous leasing co's normally the small ones have a habit of adjusing them before they go into trade/auction etc
which would have already been adjusted before comming back to the lease firm to avoid excess milage charges lol smile

Pesty

42,655 posts

255 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
matc said:
I'm amazed any dealer would buy something as expensive as a GT2 - or any car for that matter - and not carry out the basic checks. All they would have had to do was make the same phone call as you did.

I would say either the Porsche dealer has the wrong information ref. the mileage on their system (not uncommon) or the selling dealer is fully aware and trying to cover it up.
or perhaps the dealer you know did it themselves?


all2ofme

855 posts

187 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
My old C2S's service book (and all the rest of the manuals) went missing while my car was at OPC Reading.

It does happen, and it needn't always be for dubious reasons!

I always knew I wasn't "most people" wink

philcray said:
Let's be honest, we have all owned plenty of cars and never "lost" the service book, and I am pretty sure that goes for most people....

Guyr

2,196 posts

281 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
Google 'mileage adjustment' - these people do this as a full-time job. There's little legitimate need for this activity and most of their work is on higher value sports and luxury cars.

Its not uncommon for some people to have an annual 'adjustment' just before their annual service, the worst ones for this are Ferraris, since mileage absolutely destroys their value.

drpep

1,758 posts

167 months

Monday 11th June 2012
quotequote all
Christ on a bike! I cannot believe these companies are legal entities. I'd love to be able to quantify the amount of their work which is actually genuine; I bet it's bloody small.

This should be a service only available on a registered government scheme whereby the car's DVLA record registers the change; similar to when a car is involved in an accident.

Diligence pays! Personally I'd probably not buy anything without verifiable history, and indeed they OP did.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 11th June 2012
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Surely mileage adjustment could be stopped overnight, much like changing IMEI numbers on mobiles was?

996GT2

2,649 posts

209 months

Tuesday 12th June 2012
quotequote all
Bit of a worry this kind of thing isn't it. Have to admit I didn't divide the engine hours by mileage when I bought mine, or check the previous service info with the OPC who did the work - car looked great and went like stink so I bought it hehe

What's the average supposed to be, around 30 isn't it?


Is this a UK car?


Prof Beard

6,669 posts

226 months

Tuesday 12th June 2012
quotequote all
996GT2 said:
Bit of a worry this kind of thing isn't it. Have to admit I didn't divide the engine hours by mileage when I bought mine, or check the previous service info with the OPC who did the work - car looked great and went like stink so I bought it hehe

What's the average supposed to be, around 30 isn't it?


Is this a UK car?
Average speed will depend on where they vehicle has been used - I'm sure there are plenty of London based cars with very low average speeds (that wouldn't be a problem with full history, but...)