991 GT3 - latest pics
Discussion
Slippydiff said:
If Stuttgart make a big deal out of making it lighter (and I mean much lighter) and a lot more focused than the R8 and Gallardo, and rear wheel drive only. I'd sign on the dotted line.
No kidding huh. It could be fantastic providing its everything the others aren't. I wouldn't say either are great to drive. fioran0 said:
No kidding huh. It could be fantastic providing its everything the others aren't. I wouldn't say either are great to drive.
I have never read a single report on an R8 that suggests it is anything other than a wonderful thing to drive. Gallardo and R8 are not the same even under the skin. The R8 has its own bespoke aluminium space frame chassis and has always been a sweet sweet handling car.Its getting on for 7 years old now but still got the nod head to head against the 991 C2S in Wales this spring.The Gallardo feels much more 4WD and less agile in contrast ( Ironic in light of the whole "Quattro" ethos )but is still an impressive machine in many ways despite advancing years.
fioran0 said:
I just said that I wouldn't say either were drivers cars. It's not empirical and other people will of course have alternative views that are equally valid.
No of course that's completely true Neil, all I would say is that a more powerful Cayman would be a winner for most us and the R8 is not a million miles away from just that. Too wide IMO and rather generic Audi in it's styling but very wieldy, stiff and sorted.Slippydiff said:
fioran0 said:
It is meant to be a platform share with gallardo and R8.
If Stuttgart make a big deal out of making it lighter (and I mean much lighter) and a lot more focused than the R8 and Gallardo, and rear wheel drive only. I'd sign on the dotted line. Can you imagine how good a V8, mid-engined Porsche costing about £160k would be... especially when they did the GT version....!
Dblue said:
No of course that's completely true Neil, all I would say is that a more powerful Cayman would be a winner for most us and the R8 is not a million miles away from just that. Too wide IMO and rather generic Audi in it's styling but very wieldy, stiff and sorted.
Indeed the R8 is "sorted", but a true "drivers" car that's engaging to drive like a GT3 ? (in any of it's iterations) No. It's finesse and tactility are blunted by its four wheel drive system, its weight, and as you've mentioned, its size. Dull, but ruthlessly efficient (a bit like comparing a 997 Turbo against a 997 GT3) One is a fantastically quick and reasonably refined all- weather GT/supercar, the other a highly tactile (in comparison to a 997 turbo) road racer. If Stuttgart build the car I described : ie lightweight, rear wheel drive, focused, tactile, engaging to drive and wieldy, that would be a Cayman on steroids, something the Gallardo and the R8 most definitely are not.
Slippydiff said:
Indeed the R8 is "sorted", but a true "drivers" car that's engaging to drive like a GT3 ? (in any of it's iterations) No. It's finesse and tactility are blunted by its four wheel drive system, its weight, and as you've mentioned, its size. Dull, but ruthlessly efficient (a bit like comparing a 997 Turbo against a 997 GT3) One is a fantastically quick and reasonably refined all- weather GT/supercar, the other a highly tactile (in comparison to a 997 turbo) road racer.
If Stuttgart build the car I described : ie lightweight, rear wheel drive, focused, tactile, engaging to drive and wieldy, that would be a Cayman on steroids, something the Gallardo and the R8 most definitely are not.
Fair point although the R8 is not very 4WD in character, rather less so than the Gallardo. Unfortunately a Porsche 458 competitior will almost certainly be more like an R8 than a Cayman and definitely feature PDK, probably exclusively.If Stuttgart build the car I described : ie lightweight, rear wheel drive, focused, tactile, engaging to drive and wieldy, that would be a Cayman on steroids, something the Gallardo and the R8 most definitely are not.
Interestingly the R8 GT whilst seemingly a fine thing is not the step up from a boggo R8 that the GT3 is from a vanilla C2S it seems so Audi may well drop the ball down the line as they have "post RS4 (B7)
That car was truly impressive but subsequent RS models have gone backwards.
Edited by Dblue on Sunday 14th October 19:44
DMC2 said:
The 2 seat mid-engine sports car was supposed to be launched by Porsche around 2015. Porsche wanted to develop the platform which Audi and Lambo would then use for the new R8 and Gallardo, but VW told them that Audi were developing the platform and they would have to base their car on that. Porsche spat the dummy. They have now put the car on hold until the next evolution of the platform (probably about 2022) when they said they would develop the core platform. Bah humbug. I had my name down for one.
Can you imagine how good a V8, mid-engined Porsche costing about £160k would be... especially when they did the GT version....!
No longer the case mate . Porsche to design all next next gen sports platform for vw group , confirmed Can you imagine how good a V8, mid-engined Porsche costing about £160k would be... especially when they did the GT version....!
GT Glee said:
Great Pretender said:
Something's really wrong with Porsche's scalability calculations if after x thousand units as installed in everything from the first 996 turbo to the last GT3 RS, the unit cost is half the retail price of each car.
Had Porsche simply turbocharged the GT3 motor then agreed, but they're different from materials to number of main bearings.Do a web search about the use of GT3 parts in a Turbo engine and you will see what I mean.
fioran0 said:
Steve has covered most of anything I would have added ref the engines.
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
What's your source for this info?£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
Doesn't surprise me. I was speaking to somebody at Porsche a few years ago who told me that the 996RS was the first 911 that the company had actually made that cost more to build than they sold it for. The marginal build costs over the standard 996GT3 were mainly a few suspension castings, some minor engine mods and carbon fibre body parts. Not a huge difference over the cooking GT3. This implys that the build costs of the GT3 were relatively high and that margins on the car were low as a consequence. The biggest single marginal cost item of these cars over the vanilla 996 was the engine. This would imply that it was a very expensive unit to build over the standard 996 unit of the time.
Great Pretender said:
fioran0 said:
Steve has covered most of anything I would have added ref the engines.
£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
What's your source for this info?£45k and £19k are the current retail prices on a mezger and 9a1 engine without core exchange.
The point of posting was just to offer an alternative view on why Porsche may be so keen to phase it out ala 997 turbo.
There's very little margin on the GT3 even with its higher sale price while good margin on say a C2 despite its lower sale price and it's entirely due to the engine. The rest of the costs to build and deliver are very close between the two.
This is the source of Porsches complaint over the GT3 line.
It would be reasonable thus to assume that the sale price differential in no way covers the difference in engine cost price to Porsche. If it did then margin would be as good or better.
Despite making the engine for some years there's just no way to cut its cost. The components inside are expensive and there's no way around it if you want to make something of that quality.
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