Autocar's lament on the 996 Turbo

[Guvernator]

Why is Sutcliffe surprised, surely he is part of the problem\reason why these cars are appreciating in the first place. For years now journo's have been banging the "they don't make them like to used to, modern cars are too accomplished\boring to drive" drum. Hundreds of pages have literally been written about this very subject. Plus they have actively been promoting cars as appreciating assets which means we now have more and more people buying cars purely as investments rather than for driving.

I especially like it when an article is written stating how fantastic a car is just when the journo in question has bought themselves a nice example of the same (many examples of this self serving practice)

For further examples of this see the rising prices of other old Pork, E30 M3's, NSX's etc, all now praised as the second coming despite most of them not being very well received when they first came out. I'm not saying they are bad cars per se but none of them IMO are "worth" the silly prices now being asked for them if you look at them objectively for the driving experience they offer per £.

Me, I'll take the cheaper but more accomplished\competent modern car over most of the overpriced, crap to drive classics any day of the week as I have no interest in driving a car with crap brakes\suspension\handling as they aren't IMO admirable traits nor do they give a car "character" (except of course the Ferrari F40 as that is indeed special )

[erics]

my 964rs was exhausting to drive on the road. Very unpleasant. Don't get me started over how it behaved in town. A right old pig. Would get hundreds of thumbs up in one day though.

my 964c2 was 3x better to drive.

my 993 c2s is 5x better to drive.

my 996 turbo s is 10x better to drive.

Now for this 1% of the time under the sun on a track or on the smoothest of European tarmac, then a 964rs would be nice. But so would be any of the above 3...

A 2.7rs on the other hand is lovely to drive in all situations.

Remember how ferrari peaked at one point in late 80's, early 90's? I think some cars are following this path nowadays. Remember those people who paid £100k for F328gts..............

I think the 'future classic' is where no one else is looking.

Edited by erics on Friday 9th November 18:04

[uktrailmonster]

erics said:

A 2.7rs on the other hand is lovely to drive in all situations.

Yes, very memorable drive. Not too harsh on UK roads, sharp handling, tons of feel. A true classic, but prices are also very silly today and you can only have so much fun in a car. All this classic car price hiking reminds me of the Top Gear episode where James May drives Chris Evan's £5.5M Ferrari California. You can clearly see that the sheer value of the car totally ruins the driving experience. A bit of an extreme example I know, but the same principal applies to most classics when they become 'investments' rather than fun cars to hoon around in.

[pete a]

uktrailmonster said:

The 'investors' are welcome to it at that price, let's hope they start throwing their cash at GT3s etc.

Fixed that for you.

[Slippydiff]

erics said:

Slippydiff said:

If Sutcliffe can't appreciate that one's a hand built, limited production, focused, lightweight, fun to drive, engaging, visceral air cooled classic Porsche that is driveable on high days, holidays and the odd trackday, and is a relatively safe car to invest your money in.

<driveable on high days, holidays >
err... Have you owned one??

No, I've actually owned three of them (now currently on my fourth) FYi

And yes, if outright speed is your thing, a 996 Turbo S is a far superior car, ditto everyday useability. But neither of the above criteria are the RSs raison d'etre are they ?

Moosh said:

Slippydiff said:

If Sutcliffe can't appreciate that one's a hand built, limited production, focused, lightweight, fun to drive, engaging, visceral air cooled classic Porsche that is driveable on high days, holidays and the odd trackday, and is a relatively safe car to invest your money in. Whilst the other is a mass produced, four wheel drive rocket of a sofa, produced in fairly large volumes (that will continue to depreciate) I suspect he may be in the wrong job.

in fact the 996 turbo was hand built

Not compared with ANY iteration of the 964 they weren't.

[erics]

You clearly love them. The previous owner of my ex 64rs would only take it out on summer days. Take driving tuition. He had a dozen of 911s.
When comes the weekend, i like to use my car for anything and living in central london, it just did not work for me. I guess it depends on your life style and what else you have in your garage.

[Slippydiff]

erics said:

You clearly love them. The previous owner of my ex 64rs would only take it out on summer days. Take driving tuition. He had a dozen of 911s.
When comes the weekend, i like to use my car for anything and living in central london, it just did not work for me. I guess it depends on your life style and what else you have in your garage.

'964 RS as a town car ? Limited steering lock, overly stiff front dampers, LWT flywheel, no power steering and an engine that's get uppity when it gets hot and bothered (ie when sitting in stop start traffic) I used mine in town once, never again. I'd suggest your choice of car was questionable and hardly ideal for your intended use

[AlvinSultana]

Vroomer said:

Interesting article in Autocar today (p25) about what makes a classic.

Steve Sutcliffe ruminates on why the 'unusable' 964 RS is now 'worth more than the Crown Jewels' while the 'incredible' 996 Turbo can now be had for 'peanuts' (there are seven under £20k on Autotrader at the moment).

In this light, he confesses he has no idea how to spot future classics.

The popularity of the 964 rs ( and 3.2 cs ) owe more to the increased infestation of speed cameras and the growth of the track day. When these cars were launched, and the motoring press declared them unfit for the public highway they were probably correct. They did not sell inbig numbers,and why should they have ?

Fast forward 20 years and you cannot buy a better, more rewarding car, than an air cooled rs/cs porsche.

Then, giventhe small numbers manufactured, and the demand generated by the new found use for these cars, hey presto upward pressure on value.

Its not rocket, as they say.

[John D.]

Vroomer said:

Lots of insight here, but I still suspect Sutcliffe is scratching his head wondering why people will pay £60k for the 964RS when you can get a 996 Turbo for £20k.

Scratching his head wondering what to base an article on more like. Its an interesting topic for car nuts but that's it. The answer is quite obvious as several people have explained already. Bet he knows it too.

[Spaceman2001]

Since 1994 the average family car was a mondeo on 14 or 15" rims and wafty American style suspension. The 964 RS was so far away from the norm it was far too mental.
Fast forward 18 years and you cannot even buy an Audi A3 that isn't a fking S(ste)-line on rock hard suspension and 18" or 19" rims, not if you ever want to sell it anyway. VXR's are the same as are BMWs on big wheels. Compared to modern cars it ain't so bad.
964rs looks like a classic and is the last RS/GT3 before aerodynamics started playing a major part. It is gorgeous. My missus when in porsche garages is always drawn to 964's more than anything and she doesn't know much about them. They just look right.
996 turbo is amazing but lots of them out there and the design is a bit messy IMO.

[erics]

Slippydiff said:

'964 RS as a town car ? Limited steering lock, overly stiff front dampers, LWT flywheel, no power steering and an engine that's get uppity when it gets hot and bothered (ie when sitting in stop start traffic) I used mine in town once, never again. I'd suggest your choice of car was questionable and hardly ideal for your intended use

I live in town and used my 64rs for everything you do at weekends: get milk down the road or blast in the countryside, or go away for the weekend with my other half. Did not work very well. The car felt tense at all time, the rolling noise was unbearable. Suspension like a skateboard. Steering, clutch, gearshift unnecessarily heavy. The 6.2 gt3 mk2 i got afterwards was a lot more pleasant on all these aspects.

The looks were unbeatable though.

[Slippydiff]

erics said:

I live in town and used my 64rs for everything you do at weekends: get milk down the road or blast in the countryside, or go away for the weekend with my other half. Did not work very well. The car felt tense at all time, the rolling noise was unbearable. Suspension like a skateboard. Steering, clutch, gearshift unnecessarily heavy. The 6.2 gt3 mk2 i got afterwards was a lot more pleasant on all these aspects.

The looks were unbeatable though.

Hi Erics, I do love 'em, but they're an aquired taste, IMHO not a town car, not a pop down to the shops car, and unless your other half is very tolerant, not really a car a passenger would enjoy being bounced around in !
For me, they're a selfish indulgence, a get up on a Sunday morning, hop in, and spend the day driving on empty roads either on your own or with like minded mates in similar cars.
On fast smooth twisty roads, a N/A rear drive only 911 doesn't get much better, they're proof you don't need 400 + Hp to have fun in a 911.