Driving IMIA's extraordinary air-cooled 911s
Discussion
barchetta_boy said:
Yes, jackals old steer, and yes, it went to 9E last year following the Nurburgring and Zandvoort. Weighs 1260kg wet. Pretty special really. Has a genuine 3.8 RS CS engine too as well as proper welded in cage and all the usual RS CS bits
Interesting re engine. How tractable is the engine and does it have varioram being out of a cup car? Its easy to think that to get a 993 up to similar spec to RS is relatively easy like on a 964 but the list of upgrades Porsche gave the 993 RS compared to the 964 RS is huge. Was your shell seam welded too? If I was doing myself think I'd probably use a 964 as a base as much cheaper to get a car better dynamically than a 964 RS if you want like SR's. On a 993 its a small fortune if you want to do it properly inc engine etc. Was speaking to a bodyshop and they reckon its £6k just for the sunroof delete in parts alone nowadays and labour like another £8k! I'd hate to ask how much a cup engine costs today! 
IMI A said:
barchetta_boy said:
Yes, jackals old steer, and yes, it went to 9E last year following the Nurburgring and Zandvoort. Weighs 1260kg wet. Pretty special really. Has a genuine 3.8 RS CS engine too as well as proper welded in cage and all the usual RS CS bits
Rs cs engine is a standard rs engine with vario,not like a cup which has a large single inlet throttle.cup engine r very driveable also.Interesting re engine. How tractable is the engine and does it have varioram being out of a cup car? Its easy to think that to get a 993 up to similar spec to RS is relatively easy like on a 964 but the list of upgrades Porsche gave the 993 RS compared to the 964 RS is huge. Was your shell seam welded too? If I was doing myself think I'd probably use a 964 as a base as much cheaper to get a car better dynamically than a 964 RS if you want like SR's. On a 993 its a small fortune if you want to do it properly inc engine etc. Was speaking to a bodyshop and they reckon its £6k just for the sunroof delete in parts alone nowadays and labour like another £8k! I'd hate to ask how much a cup engine costs today!
Estimate of build cost today for YP if we were to build one from scratch using a good full history 85,000 mile original panel no rust 993 C2 as a base car:-
Base car £50,000
Sunroof delete £14,000
RS Suspension and front Hubs £20,000 (OEM not available any longer)
Wheels and Rubber £7,000
Full Glass out repaint £5,000 if using same colour but up to £30,000 inc colour change and regalvanising, rust removal, strengthening shell, OEM cage etc
Engine with 3.8 £30,000 for 330bhp but you can spend up to £100,000 via Ed Pink for 430bhp + which takes the power band too high in the rev range IMO
Interior RS carpet and retrim £10,000
RS door cards and body kit £11,000 (£15,000 for clubsport kit and £10,000 for RS buckets)
Lightweight glass?
£160,000 for RS pastiche with hard backs to £175,000 for clubsport spec aero with RS buckets like BB's car above. What I will say about 3.8 from Ninemeister is whilst its certainly not needed in a 964 or 993 that extra top end revving out to 7200rpm with Ninemeister billet heads, varioram make the experience intoxicating. Perfection for me would be a lightened 964 C2 with this 330bhp engine or if you want to go to town a 4.0 although I've never found the base 964 engine lacking in power
Speaking to 9e they can build a 3.8 for £15k and 4.0 for £22-£25k which doesn't seem so unreasonable.
Base car £50,000
Sunroof delete £14,000
RS Suspension and front Hubs £20,000 (OEM not available any longer)
Wheels and Rubber £7,000
Full Glass out repaint £5,000 if using same colour but up to £30,000 inc colour change and regalvanising, rust removal, strengthening shell, OEM cage etc
Engine with 3.8 £30,000 for 330bhp but you can spend up to £100,000 via Ed Pink for 430bhp + which takes the power band too high in the rev range IMO
Interior RS carpet and retrim £10,000
RS door cards and body kit £11,000 (£15,000 for clubsport kit and £10,000 for RS buckets)
Lightweight glass?
£160,000 for RS pastiche with hard backs to £175,000 for clubsport spec aero with RS buckets like BB's car above. What I will say about 3.8 from Ninemeister is whilst its certainly not needed in a 964 or 993 that extra top end revving out to 7200rpm with Ninemeister billet heads, varioram make the experience intoxicating. Perfection for me would be a lightened 964 C2 with this 330bhp engine or if you want to go to town a 4.0 although I've never found the base 964 engine lacking in power
Speaking to 9e they can build a 3.8 for £15k and 4.0 for £22-£25k which doesn't seem so unreasonable.
IMI A said:
Estimate of build cost today for YP if we were to build one from scratch using a good full history 85,000 mile original panel no rust 993 C2 as a base car:-
Base car £50,000
Sunroof delete £14,000
RS Suspension and front Hubs £20,000 (OEM not available any longer)
Wheels and Rubber £7,000
Full Glass out repaint £5,000 if using same colour but up to £30,000 inc colour change and regalvanising, rust removal, strengthening shell, OEM cage etc
Engine with 3.8 £30,000 for 330bhp but you can spend up to £100,000 via Ed Pink for 430bhp + which takes the power band too high in the rev range IMO
Interior RS carpet and retrim £10,000
RS door cards and body kit £11,000 (£15,000 for clubsport kit and £10,000 for RS buckets)
Lightweight glass?
£160,000 for RS pastiche with hard backs to £175,000 for clubsport spec aero with RS buckets like BB's car above. What I will say about 3.8 from Ninemeister is whilst its certainly not needed in a 964 or 993 that extra top end revving out to 7200rpm with Ninemeister billet heads, varioram make the experience intoxicating. Perfection for me would be a lightened 964 C2 with this 330bhp engine or if you want to go to town a 4.0 although I've never found the base 964 engine lacking in power
Speaking to 9e they can build a 3.8 for £15k and 4.0 for £22-£25k which doesn't seem so unreasonable.
Steady on chap Base car £50,000
Sunroof delete £14,000
RS Suspension and front Hubs £20,000 (OEM not available any longer)
Wheels and Rubber £7,000
Full Glass out repaint £5,000 if using same colour but up to £30,000 inc colour change and regalvanising, rust removal, strengthening shell, OEM cage etc
Engine with 3.8 £30,000 for 330bhp but you can spend up to £100,000 via Ed Pink for 430bhp + which takes the power band too high in the rev range IMO
Interior RS carpet and retrim £10,000
RS door cards and body kit £11,000 (£15,000 for clubsport kit and £10,000 for RS buckets)
Lightweight glass?
£160,000 for RS pastiche with hard backs to £175,000 for clubsport spec aero with RS buckets like BB's car above. What I will say about 3.8 from Ninemeister is whilst its certainly not needed in a 964 or 993 that extra top end revving out to 7200rpm with Ninemeister billet heads, varioram make the experience intoxicating. Perfection for me would be a lightened 964 C2 with this 330bhp engine or if you want to go to town a 4.0 although I've never found the base 964 engine lacking in power
Speaking to 9e they can build a 3.8 for £15k and 4.0 for £22-£25k which doesn't seem so unreasonable.
those prices look a tad toppy to me (though don't think for one moment I'm suggesting that doing an 993 RS conversion will ever be cheap)1. Patience is a definite virtue, doing a sunroof delete is now utter folly, far better to wait until the right car come up without a sunroof. I think the price you've quoted is pretty close to the very maximum of what it would cost (but would include all the paintwork that would be required too), so it's clear to see that avoiding doing it saves a huge chunk of cash.
For a project such as this, the last thing I'd be looking to buy would be full history car as you'll be chucking just about every wear component in the bin...
2. The RS front uprights are available again as of Oct '18 :
http://www.carnewal.com/products/993/p93013/Bump-S...
They're as cheap as chips and make the 9M and BBi billet versions look overly expensive IMO.
Some carefully chosen uprated suspension links, uprated bush kits and spherical bearings (and a smattering of Cup components from the M/Sport dept) and from Elephant Racing, Tarret etc, will get you any set up you want, be that for track or road use, and these used along with a set of KW V3's (or Clubsports) would make for a superbly handling car all for way less than £20k (but if you want to really splash the cash, use a set of my beloved Ohlins TTX's) but we're rapidly getting into the realms of diminishing returns here ...
3. Wheels and rubber, a set of Tramont RS reps or good old E88 BBS's along with some decent rubber should be doable for considerably less than £7k.
4. Guards red and Speed yellow LHD, non sunroof cars do appear from time to time both in the UK and in the Fatherland, once again patience is a virtue, and the savings are huge when compared with doing a sunroof delete properly and repainting the whole car.
5. If you're looking to do the job properly the engine build (along with a transmission re-gear) is what really stings financially. A re-gear will cost you £8-10k by the time you've bought the components necessary for the re-gear AND all the other worn bearings, synchro hubs/cones etc etc. It does transform the car though and is cheaper than trying to extract big HP numbers from the 993 motor.
If you're starting with a Varioram car, I personally I wouldn't bother going the 3.8 route if the 3.6 barrels, pistons etc are serviceable, I'd concentrate on optimising the exhaust, some sensible cams and a decent remap, they should get you to 300-310hp and along with a close ratio transmission, it would make for lovely road car drivetrain.
6. Interior. You should be able to the RS carpet/interior retrim for a lot less than £10k ....
7. Seats and door cards. The last set of RS doorcards I bought from Southbound weren't ridiculously expensive, the door pulls, roses and manual window winder handles are another matter ! Seats will run you to £6k if you go S/Bound Pole Positions and an RS leather trim job, but there are far cheaper replica options (without TUV/FIA approval) available off the shelf for considerably less.
8. RS bodykit. The Clubsport kit I broke and supplied to you and Paul cost waaaaay less than the figure you've quoted. As I understood it, the factory still had a couple of kits left, but if not, buy the OE sill extensions (the aftermarket items are hopeless from what I've heard/read) and there are some decent carbon fibre (and thus much lighter) 3 piece front splitter assemblies/rear spoilers available from the usual suspects in The States.
9, If you're going for weight savings, you'll need and ali bonnet and as you've said, the lightweight glass. I'd do the rear screen and ali bonnet and leave it at that personally.
Still not cheap though I grant you. I tend to agree with you, that a narrow body 300-350hp 964 would be a more fun car to drive and cheaper to build overall (probably).
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 27th January 16:54
Those figures are way out imo - £10k for RS carpets/interior ? I paid a fraction of that and that included removing all the metalwork/brackets as per the RS documentation. As it happens I've been looking at 993 suspension this morning as I'm thinking of doing a 993 RSR project - Nitrons/KW, mono-balls, RS ARB's etc - a lot less than £20k. Me thinks those 9M invoices are clouding your judgement 
Hi H, SG I'm simply quoting costs for YP.Yes the interior was £5k not £10k getting confused with cost of used OEM 993 RS buckets whilst typing sorry which I low balled on and if anyone ever has a set for sale I'd be very interested in. £15k for Clubsport bodykit includes OEM RS door cards just as I did for normal RS body kit which Carnewal sells for £10,995 before painting. As you say H there are only maybe a few OEM CS kits left. How much would they be new with a new OEM door card set as I doubt Carnewal can supply the genuine Clubsport kit like yours?
You can of course build not using OEM RS parts but then thats not building what the original owner of YP wanted. You really do need to drive the car to understand her properly.
You can of course build not using OEM RS parts but then thats not building what the original owner of YP wanted. You really do need to drive the car to understand her properly.
SignalGruen said:
Those figures are way out imo - £10k for RS carpets/interior ? I paid a fraction of that and that included removing all the metalwork/brackets as per the RS documentation. As it happens I've been looking at 993 suspension this morning as I'm thinking of doing a 993 RSR project - Nitrons/KW, mono-balls, RS ARB's etc - a lot less than £20k. Me thinks those 9M invoices are clouding your judgement
Costs are dependent on the spec of the cat that you build. You can build a 3.6 hot rod ‘relatively’ cheaply but if you want to build an accurate RS CS with the correct 3.8 engine, gearbox, steel non sun roof and Ali bonnet all with the correct brake and chassis components, you are in for a very big bill. My car has a cup spec engine as it was built with racing in mind but even a varoram 3.8 as per the RS CS spec is not a cheap Unit to build.
Steve Rance said:
SignalGruen said:
Those figures are way out imo - £10k for RS carpets/interior ? I paid a fraction of that and that included removing all the metalwork/brackets as per the RS documentation. As it happens I've been looking at 993 suspension this morning as I'm thinking of doing a 993 RSR project - Nitrons/KW, mono-balls, RS ARB's etc - a lot less than £20k. Me thinks those 9M invoices are clouding your judgement
Costs are dependent on the spec of the cat that you build. You can build a 3.6 hot rod ‘relatively’ cheaply but if you want to build an accurate RS CS with the correct 3.8 engine, gearbox, steel non sun roof and Ali bonnet all with the correct brake and chassis components, you are in for a very big bill. My car has a cup spec engine as it was built with racing in mind but even a varoram 3.8 as per the RS CS spec is not a cheap Unit to build.
IMI A said:
Hi H, SG I'm simply quoting costs for YP.Yes the interior was £5k not £10k getting confused with cost of used OEM 993 RS buckets whilst typing sorry which I low balled on and if anyone ever has a set for sale I'd be very interested in. £15k for Clubsport bodykit includes OEM RS door cards just as I did for normal RS body kit which Carnewal sells for £10,995 before painting. As you say H there are only maybe a few OEM CS kits left. How much would they be new with a new OEM door card set as I doubt Carnewal can supply the genuine Clubsport kit like yours?
You can of course build not using OEM RS parts but then thats not building what the original owner of YP wanted. You really do need to drive the car to understand her properly.
Evening I. Not sure where you’re getting £10k from for any OE 993 RS body kit ? Am I missing something ? Gert sells the “standard” 993 RS aero kit for 3595 euros (that’s everything, front splitters, rear spoiler, sill extensions and all the fittings required.You can of course build not using OEM RS parts but then thats not building what the original owner of YP wanted. You really do need to drive the car to understand her properly.
The rear Clubsport rear spoiler is NLA, but as I said, the last time I checked it “appeared” there were possibly two complete CS kits available. Retail price for those 2-3 years ago was roughly £5k plus vat IIRC.
Gert sells the OE Clubsport 3piece front splitter kit for 2250 euros.
I’m not sure, but I doubt you can get the factory RS door cards anymore. And if you could and you did order them, they’d most likely be ridiculously expensive, possibly take months to arrive, and if my experiences with the parts I ordered for the rebuild of the yellow Techart 964 RS were anything to go by, they’d probably be poor quality too.
The Southbound items are exact replicas, right down to the rubber/plastic beading around the edge (that I had to order myself of Sierra Madre in the States) to enable Southbound to complete them.
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 27th January 18:19
All I know is I paid roughly double what you would pay for a nice, sorted low miles C2 and given my car has a real 3.8 CS engine, and pretty much all the right RS CS parts other than the gearbox I reckon it was a good buy. In answer to the question above the engine is very tractable at low speed. Best sounding 911 I've ever heard too.
Instrument dials have been returned to black since those photos.
Instrument dials have been returned to black since those photos.
Slippydiff said:
IMI A said:
Hi H, SG I'm simply quoting costs for YP.Yes the interior was £5k not £10k getting confused with cost of used OEM 993 RS buckets whilst typing sorry which I low balled on and if anyone ever has a set for sale I'd be very interested in. £15k for Clubsport bodykit includes OEM RS door cards just as I did for normal RS body kit which Carnewal sells for £10,995 before painting. As you say H there are only maybe a few OEM CS kits left. How much would they be new with a new OEM door card set as I doubt Carnewal can supply the genuine Clubsport kit like yours?
You can of course build not using OEM RS parts but then thats not building what the original owner of YP wanted. You really do need to drive the car to understand her properly.
Evening I. Not sure where you’re getting £10k from for any OE 993 RS body kit ? Am I missing something ? Gert sells the “standard” 993 RS aero kit for 3595 euros (that’s everything, front splitters, rear spoiler, sill extensions and all the fittings required.You can of course build not using OEM RS parts but then thats not building what the original owner of YP wanted. You really do need to drive the car to understand her properly.
The rear Clubsport rear spoiler is NLA, but as I said, the last time I checked it “appeared” there were possibly two complete CS kits available. Retail price for those 2-3 years ago was roughly £5k plus vat IIRC.
Gert sells the OE Clubsport 3piece front splitter kit for 2250 euros.
I’m not sure, but I doubt you can get the factory RS door cards anymore. And if you could and you did order them, they’d most likely be ridiculously expensive, possibly take months to arrive, and if my experiences with the parts I ordered for the rebuild of the yellow Techart 964 RS were anything to go by, they’d probably be poor quality too.
The Southbound items are exact replicas, right down to the rubber/plastic beading around the edge (that I had to order myself of Sierra Madre in the States) to enable Southbound to complete them.
Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 27th January 18:19
on 911uk but it was basically someone asking how much to get to the 993 RS "look" and I forgot about the wheels in that figure ! The #10995 includes Speedlines!!! Dementia setting in very early 
barchetta_boy said:
All I know is I paid roughly double what you would pay for a nice, sorted low miles C2 and given my car has a real 3.8 CS engine, and pretty much all the right RS CS parts other than the gearbox I reckon it was a good buy. In answer to the question above the engine is very tractable at low speed. Best sounding 911 I've ever heard too.
Instrument dials have been returned to black since those photos.
Did Tony Littlejohn build this car?Instrument dials have been returned to black since those photos.
barchetta_boy said:
All I know is I paid roughly double what you would pay for a nice, sorted low miles C2 and given my car has a real 3.8 CS engine, and pretty much all the right RS CS parts other than the gearbox I reckon it was a good buy. In answer to the question above the engine is very tractable at low speed. Best sounding 911 I've ever heard too.
Instrument dials have been returned to black since those photos.
Jackals old car is probably more extreme than a RS Clubsport in many way. Watching all his grafting I vividly remember him tackling the glue on the tub and it looked like a total nightmare job. I felt I low balled when getting to a true "build" figure for your car today. The cottage industry building these cars has really blossomed and labour figures aren't cheap anymore let alone OEM parts but I accept you can find aftermarket parts which are just as good or better. Realistically its prohibitively expensive to build yours with a cup spec engine etc unless you do a lot of the work like Jackal did and or are very well heeled indeed. The noise must be nuts Instrument dials have been returned to black since those photos.
IMI A said:
on 911uk but it was basically someone asking how much to get to the 993 RS "look" and I forgot about the wheels in that figure ! The #10995 includes Speedlines!!! Dementia setting in very early Tramonts or BBS every time for me (or Cargraphics) ...
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