Interesting 'Alzen Car'
Discussion
bigunit00 said:
Thanks for the link. This comment I think is interesting-Have you managed to trace your shell number to an original cup car yet Des?
Still mystified why my contact told me these cars were built from the spare shells at the end of the season rather than the race cars which he told me were in collections in Germany (along with the famous green cup car that so many people claim to own).
Impressed with your detective work so far Des.
But this latest car has neither a Porsche NOR Alzen chassis number??? How is it registered then?
Cheers
Rick
I wonder if the same happened to the Alzen car as happened to my 993 Cup RSR ?
Mine started life as a 993 Cup in Germany. After an accident it was sold to a Berlin based Race team called Chzranoswki who reshelled it into a new factory supplied cup shell from Porsche. That shell has the six digit production number on the rear parcel shelf but no Vin number. There is an ID number stamped on the front right suspension turret , put there by the race team. AFAIK to get a cup shell from Porsche you had to first have a cup car to trade, and Porsche did'nt always take them back.
For many years, and even from birth, the 964 in RS form was unloved, see Peter Morgan's uncomplimentary road test of one in Porsche Post and slightly out of date race cars were the same.
Mine started life as a 993 Cup in Germany. After an accident it was sold to a Berlin based Race team called Chzranoswki who reshelled it into a new factory supplied cup shell from Porsche. That shell has the six digit production number on the rear parcel shelf but no Vin number. There is an ID number stamped on the front right suspension turret , put there by the race team. AFAIK to get a cup shell from Porsche you had to first have a cup car to trade, and Porsche did'nt always take them back.
For many years, and even from birth, the 964 in RS form was unloved, see Peter Morgan's uncomplimentary road test of one in Porsche Post and slightly out of date race cars were the same.
majordad said:
I wonder if the same happened to the Alzen car as happened to my 993 Cup RSR ?
Mine started life as a 993 Cup in Germany. After an accident it was sold to a Berlin based Race team called Chzranoswki who reshelled it into a new factory supplied cup shell from Porsche. That shell has the six digit production number on the rear parcel shelf but no Vin number. There is an ID number stamped on the front right suspension turret , put there by the race team. AFAIK to get a cup shell from Porsche you had to first have a cup car to trade, and Porsche did'nt always take them back.
For many years, and even from birth, the 964 in RS form was unloved, see Peter Morgan's uncomplimentary road test of one in Porsche Post and slightly out of date race cars were the same.
So does this make it a Bitza? Mine started life as a 993 Cup in Germany. After an accident it was sold to a Berlin based Race team called Chzranoswki who reshelled it into a new factory supplied cup shell from Porsche. That shell has the six digit production number on the rear parcel shelf but no Vin number. There is an ID number stamped on the front right suspension turret , put there by the race team. AFAIK to get a cup shell from Porsche you had to first have a cup car to trade, and Porsche did'nt always take them back.
For many years, and even from birth, the 964 in RS form was unloved, see Peter Morgan's uncomplimentary road test of one in Porsche Post and slightly out of date race cars were the same.
Knowing that car from years gone by it is a great drive and very fast on track , 15 years ago we all messed and modded 64RS as we were thrashing them on track on slicks ...... now as investments the glory in a car is sadly "matching numbers " as it will not see a track where springs/ dampers are changed ... engines altered ( remember a very expensive 9M job ) ...
All Cup , R , Rs and RSR cars got re-shelled in a big off but the factory required the old shell for an exchange ( as the cost was very subsidised ) and often denoted the new car as the number and a b at the end ( GT cars )
All Cup , R , Rs and RSR cars got re-shelled in a big off but the factory required the old shell for an exchange ( as the cost was very subsidised ) and often denoted the new car as the number and a b at the end ( GT cars )
Mustangs said:
So does this make it a Bitza?
It sure does ! Shortly after I bought it the engine lost power, so I had a new one built from a 964 casing, then the gear box and so on. It's life, it's Porsche, it's racing , the way things were and are. But one thing is certain, this year mine will begin it's 11th year of racing with me, and it had a further 8 years before that in Germany. Many of us use them !Edited by majordad on Wednesday 23 March 13:04
majordad said:
It sure does ! Shortly after I bought it the engine lost power, so I had a new one built from a 964 casing, then the gear box and so on. It's life, it's Porsche, it's racing , the way things were and are. But one thing is certain, this year mine will begin it's 11th year of racing with me, and it had a further 8 years before that in Germany. Many of us use them !
Well played you, these cars should see 'action'. So the RPM car is a Bitza but by the sounds of it if used properly that's no bad thing. Glad we got to the bottom of itEdited by majordad on Wednesday 23 March 13:04
hunter 66 said:
Knowing that car from years gone by it is a great drive and very fast on track , 15 years ago we all messed and modded 64RS as we were thrashing them on track on slicks ...... now as investments the glory in a car is sadly "matching numbers " as it will not see a track where springs/ dampers are changed ... engines altered ( remember a very expensive 9M job ) ...
All Cup , R , Rs and RSR cars got re-shelled in a big off but the factory required the old shell for an exchange ( as the cost was very subsidised ) and often denoted the new car as the number and a b at the end ( GT cars )
I had a yellow 964RS with a 9m engine conversion. Very tricked up. Chopped it in for a 993RSCS that didn't have matching numbers. Both were great fun but a challenge at resale. All Cup , R , Rs and RSR cars got re-shelled in a big off but the factory required the old shell for an exchange ( as the cost was very subsidised ) and often denoted the new car as the number and a b at the end ( GT cars )
I looked over another Alzen car yesterday whilst I was at JZM. It looked lovely and I imagine is a great drive, very analogue and engaging.
Edited to add: momentary confusion.... There is a blue 964 Cup at JZM, also driven by Alzen. That's what I saw rather than the yellow 964 Cup, referred to in this thread as the Alzen car
Edited by jimmyslr on Thursday 24th March 06:32
OK. To reiterate some answers given elsewhere and obtainable for the genuinely interested from Greig himself at RPM here we go again ....
The existing car has a well documented build BY ALZEN MOTORSPORT probably about the most well known and respected Cup Car racers and winners in 1992 of the German Carrera Cup when this car was completed at the end of this season. Both the detailed original German Log Book and full DEKRA report are available with photographic evidence from the end of 1992 as is full service history.
The DEKRA report and final confirmation from Alzen as the original 1992 number 15 car all came together in the last six months. As a previous poster here on this thread said, he also got confirmation through a German friend at the time presumably verbally, but was too late to buy the car. Took me a bit longer!
The season finished in a shell following the original car crashing. The sister car which I located has an M001 Shell but a M700 Chassis number. My car is the original M700 CUP chassis. Not rocket science what these race teams did in these days of their demolition derby races. Remember these cars were practically worthless and were rebuilt into various formats or broken up. This car survived with a now complete and interesting history.
I do not consider the car a Bitsa, but a well thought out Ultimate road track new build by well respected Alzen Motorsport on their original M700 Cup chassis, would you call a RUF CTR a bitsa? Alzen are a registered German car manufacturer.
Full M700 CUP chassis, matter cage, all correct welds, alloy bonnet, original 1992 Three piece Cup Magnesiums etc .... so the wide body route was decided from scratch, so steel RSR arches and then the power plant. An original DP MOTORSPORT 3,3 Turbo engine to give a lazy 360BHP on instant tap with as much torque to pull your house down. The RPM commissioned engine test showed less than 3% ANY CYLINDER. The chassis is as straight as a dye, the set up perfect by previous owner and racer Paul Mc, think he knows a bit. Wayne Schofield full engine map. Full bespoke stainless steel exhaust, recent new turbo and kevlar RSR wing complete the more recent improvements. G50/50 sweet gearbox and LSD.
Very low miles and fully documented service history from Alzen (1992) to present day. Registered on Alzen Chassis number ending 000001 on the front suspension turret. A genuine Alzen Motorsport build from their original M700 Cup chassis as confirmed by Alzen. I also have registration number M700 CUP which will go on the car (deal depending) as it has already sported my own personalised R reg. Let Greig negotiate the number in the deal.
Inspection report available at RPM. Going back to prices yes Mustang at £55K four years ago a good buy and so would be a good 964RS at same money at the time. Good point. It has always sold for about good 964RS Money but now in far superior condition to most, must be cheap.
Driving the car is something else, those who have had passenger rides or lucky enough to drive this car can bare testimony.
The existing car has a well documented build BY ALZEN MOTORSPORT probably about the most well known and respected Cup Car racers and winners in 1992 of the German Carrera Cup when this car was completed at the end of this season. Both the detailed original German Log Book and full DEKRA report are available with photographic evidence from the end of 1992 as is full service history.
The DEKRA report and final confirmation from Alzen as the original 1992 number 15 car all came together in the last six months. As a previous poster here on this thread said, he also got confirmation through a German friend at the time presumably verbally, but was too late to buy the car. Took me a bit longer!
The season finished in a shell following the original car crashing. The sister car which I located has an M001 Shell but a M700 Chassis number. My car is the original M700 CUP chassis. Not rocket science what these race teams did in these days of their demolition derby races. Remember these cars were practically worthless and were rebuilt into various formats or broken up. This car survived with a now complete and interesting history.
I do not consider the car a Bitsa, but a well thought out Ultimate road track new build by well respected Alzen Motorsport on their original M700 Cup chassis, would you call a RUF CTR a bitsa? Alzen are a registered German car manufacturer.
Full M700 CUP chassis, matter cage, all correct welds, alloy bonnet, original 1992 Three piece Cup Magnesiums etc .... so the wide body route was decided from scratch, so steel RSR arches and then the power plant. An original DP MOTORSPORT 3,3 Turbo engine to give a lazy 360BHP on instant tap with as much torque to pull your house down. The RPM commissioned engine test showed less than 3% ANY CYLINDER. The chassis is as straight as a dye, the set up perfect by previous owner and racer Paul Mc, think he knows a bit. Wayne Schofield full engine map. Full bespoke stainless steel exhaust, recent new turbo and kevlar RSR wing complete the more recent improvements. G50/50 sweet gearbox and LSD.
Very low miles and fully documented service history from Alzen (1992) to present day. Registered on Alzen Chassis number ending 000001 on the front suspension turret. A genuine Alzen Motorsport build from their original M700 Cup chassis as confirmed by Alzen. I also have registration number M700 CUP which will go on the car (deal depending) as it has already sported my own personalised R reg. Let Greig negotiate the number in the deal.
Inspection report available at RPM. Going back to prices yes Mustang at £55K four years ago a good buy and so would be a good 964RS at same money at the time. Good point. It has always sold for about good 964RS Money but now in far superior condition to most, must be cheap.
Driving the car is something else, those who have had passenger rides or lucky enough to drive this car can bare testimony.
I recal the car from oulton RS days a few years back, and have been out in it several times. The car was always well maintained and a great piece of kit. Fast, torquey and stiff. It always appealed to me, and I kinda missed of the boat on it a few years....
Its always going to a difficult car to price and sell, it needs the right buyer, the 964RS is a much wider market, and hard to compare. As with all these things provenance and proving it becomes crucial to value.
Anyway if whoever buys it plans to drive it - they will enjoy no doubt
Sadly- that becomes less likely the more expensive these things get.
Good luck with the sale.
Its always going to a difficult car to price and sell, it needs the right buyer, the 964RS is a much wider market, and hard to compare. As with all these things provenance and proving it becomes crucial to value.
Anyway if whoever buys it plans to drive it - they will enjoy no doubt
Sadly- that becomes less likely the more expensive these things get.
Good luck with the sale.
H...... Provenance is there in abundance ..... As for a bitsa guess that's your informed opinion from your close inspection of the car and file .... As for value .... There is nothing out there comparable .... Yes a difficult one to price now, that's why it's priced well well below a good RS or Cup.
I knew the car when the first UK owner and the next owner used to take it on trackdays. It was comparatively cheap back then... cheaper than a regular 964RS LWT. It's a real 'ear to ear grin' type of car when on track and quite a handful with the on/off power delivery. Back then it was simply known as track special that had been built by Alzen and the owners enjoyed as such....although the first owner freely admitted that it put the s..ts up him when he drove it. 
Double gauche said:
So in conclusion the cars a bitsa but built by a chap with a famous name
As for values - it was for sale at 75 k, 6 months ago.....
Ah yes 75k makes sense. Owners looking for quite a profit and uplift in value. As for values - it was for sale at 75 k, 6 months ago.....
At the classified price id buy something original personally but then in another 6 months this car will be up for 175 anyhow. Still love the look of it though
I just get very slightly wary when an outfit with the reputation as RPM use words like 'Allegedly' and 'proposing'. I note none of this is used and no lengthy essay on the description is felt necessary on the car at JZM.
When you want someone to part with £140k of their hard earned for a non matching car then best of luck the evidence I have seen is that this car has been at several places each time another £20k or so is added and the 'file' gets added to or more complete. It is actually more likely the car would of had a 3.8 RSR motor stuck in it anyway. I am sure this is a great drive but to me the question what it is purporting to be is still entirely subjective.
When you want someone to part with £140k of their hard earned for a non matching car then best of luck the evidence I have seen is that this car has been at several places each time another £20k or so is added and the 'file' gets added to or more complete. It is actually more likely the car would of had a 3.8 RSR motor stuck in it anyway. I am sure this is a great drive but to me the question what it is purporting to be is still entirely subjective.
Edited by berty37 on Thursday 24th March 11:00
berty37 said:
I just get very slightly wary when an outfit with the reputation as RPM use words like 'Allegedly' and 'proposing'. I note none of this is used and no lengthy essay on the description is felt necessary on the car at JZM.
When you want someone to part with £140k of their hard earned for a non matching car then best of luck the evidence I have seen is that this car has been at several places each time another £20k or so is added and the 'file' gets added to or more complete. It is actually more likely the car would of had a 3.8 RSR motor stuck in it anyway. I am sure this is a great drive but to me the question what it is purporting to be is still entirely subjective.
Yes understandably with a car like this, and their reputation, RPM are protecting themselves in the advert. When you want someone to part with £140k of their hard earned for a non matching car then best of luck the evidence I have seen is that this car has been at several places each time another £20k or so is added and the 'file' gets added to or more complete. It is actually more likely the car would of had a 3.8 RSR motor stuck in it anyway. I am sure this is a great drive but to me the question what it is purporting to be is still entirely subjective.
Edited by berty37 on Thursday 24th March 11:00
RPM have an excellent reputation .... They have ALL the paperwork which some prolific posters here seem a little afraid to inquire and then make their own uninformed opinions ..... They are selling the car as exactly what it is .... in my opinion understated. If some can't comprehend this I am sorry.
carreraboy said:
RPM have an excellent reputation .... They have ALL the paperwork which some prolific posters here seem a little afraid to inquire and then make their own uninformed opinions ..... They are selling the car as exactly what it is .... in my opinion understated. If some can't comprehend this I am sorry.
You seem to be avoiding Berty37's posts Carreraboy. Any reason for this?Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff