Discussion
A well known London dealer has a selection of well priced 993 and 997 cars for sale. There is a really attractive white convertible 993 and silver hardtop with metropole leather, which works well. I sort of want to like them and I like to flirt with the idea of chopping in the 996T and going vintage. BUT, all I needed to see in the background of one of the pictures was the rear of a nice gen 2 997 (there is a well priced one for sale, 2011, not many miles and cheaper than the 993's). My honest, almost subliminal, gut reaction was to feel 'wouldn't that be a great car to drive down to Italy in!' I couldn't help but prefer to be in the more modern motor if I wanted to do anything other than a geriatric vintage rally - which I sort of would like to like to do.
The 997.2 is surely better in every way, isn't it? Not sure the market sees it that way, though....
I'll stick to the 996T, which is excellent. Why is the grass always greener?
The 997.2 is surely better in every way, isn't it? Not sure the market sees it that way, though....
I'll stick to the 996T, which is excellent. Why is the grass always greener?
Edited by ScienceTeacher on Tuesday 8th November 16:50
Modern cars are almost always "better" than older ones in terms of capability, as Captain Slow rightly points out.
However, only you can know whether you find them too much "better" than you find enjoyable.
But really it sounds like you prefer the water-cooled models personally (as I do).
However, only you can know whether you find them too much "better" than you find enjoyable.
But really it sounds like you prefer the water-cooled models personally (as I do).
I am fortunate enough to have both a 993 and a 997. Of course the 997 is better in some ways but I would never describe the drive of a 993 as vintage. It drives like a modern car and if I was to chose one to go to Italy it would be the 993 every time. It would be a much better driving experience.
jmbdino said:
I am fortunate enough to have both a 993 and a 997. Of course the 997 is better in some ways but I would never describe the drive of a 993 as vintage. It drives like a modern car and if I was to chose one to go to Italy it would be the 993 every time. It would be a much better driving experience.
I am really interested to hear this, and it was sort of what I wanted to hear. I think I need to drive a 993: I've been in one but never behind the wheel. I sense they are more special than the modern cars but keep coming back to the more modern machines. I think the 993 will be pretty different to the 996T, though. Take a good read of this thread then grab yourself a nice 993: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I'm a big fan of adventures in old cars, this guy could have done something much more safe and undramatic but what an adventure!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ01j-ASWAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ01j-ASWAM
ScienceTeacher said:
I think I need to drive a 993: I've been in one but never behind the wheel.
Be sure that you drive one that has got 'refreshed' suspension, otherwise you might come away disappointed and wondering what all the fuss is about. The 993 is however a car that you can tune to feel exactly how you want, but it may take quite a few attempts before you get it 'right'.They are both great cars for different reasons and it comes down to what your priorities are and what sort of driving and ownership experience you are looking for.
One thing I would say about the older car, is that a quick run around the block and down an A road might not be enough to 'get it'. If you have never driven an air cooled 911, it will seem heavy and awkward at first, the control weights, pedal positioning, the small interior, strange smells and noises etc etc.
The whole experience turns many people off! But, stick with it and explore its limits and you will find a huge depth of character and driving pleasure!
But the 997 is a great car in its own right too!
One thing I would say about the older car, is that a quick run around the block and down an A road might not be enough to 'get it'. If you have never driven an air cooled 911, it will seem heavy and awkward at first, the control weights, pedal positioning, the small interior, strange smells and noises etc etc.
The whole experience turns many people off! But, stick with it and explore its limits and you will find a huge depth of character and driving pleasure!
But the 997 is a great car in its own right too!
Orangecurry said:
Be sure that you drive one that has got 'refreshed' suspension, otherwise you might come away disappointed and wondering what all the fuss is about. The 993 is however a car that you can tune to feel exactly how you want, but it may take quite a few attempts before you get it 'right'.
This (and molly's comment above). I sold a 997 GTS and bought a 964 C2. Missed the GTS greatly so intended to move the 964 on quickly and get another. By the time I found another manual GTS the 964 had got well and truly under my skin and I ended up having them both. I found it took time to get to know the 964 properly. New Bilstein PSS10s, bushes, light weight 17" Fuchs and geo by Center Gravity moved the game on considerably and I feel fortunate to have the best of both worlds. When the red mist is up there is nothing like pressing on hard in the GTS, but just being in the 964 - bimbling around in it as well as letting the old girl lift up her skirts and go, is an utter joy. Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Cheib said:
Would love to take mine on a drive to The Alps!
Do recommend.I had the excuse this year. (Opera in the Verona Arena tickets)
Trying to rack my brains for a suitable cause next year to get down and round to maybe Milau Viaduct / South of France, or other silliness.
Been a similar dilemma recently. 993 versus 997.1 or 997.2
Heart says 993 and head still has not made up its mind, as usual!
I think 993 would be a life-time car but I'm actually a little bit worried about the maintenance? it's a much more reliable 911 thats for sure but is it easy to find air-cooled expert specialists out there, who would not charge you an arm and leg each time? Coming from 986, watercooling, of course no idea about air-cooled mechanics and common spots that makes it 997 a bit more easier choice?
Heart says 993 and head still has not made up its mind, as usual!
I think 993 would be a life-time car but I'm actually a little bit worried about the maintenance? it's a much more reliable 911 thats for sure but is it easy to find air-cooled expert specialists out there, who would not charge you an arm and leg each time? Coming from 986, watercooling, of course no idea about air-cooled mechanics and common spots that makes it 997 a bit more easier choice?
ooid said:
I think 993 would be a life-time car but I'm actually a little bit worried about the maintenance? it's a much more reliable 911 thats for sure but is it easy to find air-cooled expert specialists out there, who would not charge you an arm and leg each time? Coming from 986, watercooling, of course no idea about air-cooled mechanics and common spots that makes it 997 a bit more easier choice?
Maintenance is very easy on the 993 - they made significant improvements even over the 964 (hydraulic tappets for instance) and you can do most of the work yourself - which shows how easy it is. Oil change every 12k miles; plugs and oil filters every 24k miles. That's it. Air and pollen filters are easy. Gearbox oil and fuel filter at the 48k mark. Most garages forget to bleed the clutch slave cylinder when the calipers are bled. Consumables (brakes essentially) are readily available (GSF for Sebros) with a wide choice and relatively cheap.
Yes 'specialists' will overcharge for these things, but I doubt even they are more expensive for what they charge for maintaining the water-cooled cars.
The 993 is like a large set of meccano; and it's just as satisfying to work on them as they are to drive. The awkward areas are access to the sides/top of the engine, but even changing the spark-plugs is do-able, so it's only if the upper cam-covers need doing that you are into high labour costs, and they are a once-in-a-100k type job. If you have to hoik the engine out, then it will be expensive because you may as do the clutch and spark-plug leads and and and...
The other jobs that cost money are getting the suspension 'right' and fixing the air-con, but again these are once-every-60-100k jobs.
Trust me.
But as Molly said, you might not 'get' the older 911 thing. It can take time.
Lungauer for instance, saying his stopgap 964 'got under the skin'. That's what they can do.
Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 8th November 22:49
To me, there is nothing quite like an aircooled 911. Every decent length of trip becomes far more an adventure in an old Porsche. I wouldn't want to use it as a daily as I think the shine would quickly where off though.
What I find the most enjoyable is a proper long distant trip. Polish her up, prep the car, check the belts, carry a litre of oil with you (just in case) head off for the ferry and rumble along the quiet roads of Europe. My 993 took me on a 2.3k road trip all over Spain in temperatures that varied by over 30 degrees. She didn't miss a beat and even the air con coped. From auto routes, mountain passes to stifling city heat, she took it all in her stride. Magical.
What I find the most enjoyable is a proper long distant trip. Polish her up, prep the car, check the belts, carry a litre of oil with you (just in case) head off for the ferry and rumble along the quiet roads of Europe. My 993 took me on a 2.3k road trip all over Spain in temperatures that varied by over 30 degrees. She didn't miss a beat and even the air con coped. From auto routes, mountain passes to stifling city heat, she took it all in her stride. Magical.
I've had 5x 911s from a 911 SC, 964 C2, 993 Turbo, 997 GTS and now 964 C2 again. For absolute A to B speed and reliability go for the 997 if you're happy to break all the rules. For a big smile on your face on modern roads without having to drive like a hooligan go for the 964 or 993. If you'e happy to spend money on it to get it sorted, a 964 or 993 can be a reliable daily driver.
ScienceTeacher said:
jmbdino said:
I am fortunate enough to have both a 993 and a 997. Of course the 997 is better in some ways but I would never describe the drive of a 993 as vintage. It drives like a modern car and if I was to chose one to go to Italy it would be the 993 every time. It would be a much better driving experience.
I am really interested to hear this, and it was sort of what I wanted to hear. I think I need to drive a 993: I've been in one but never behind the wheel. I sense they are more special than the modern cars but keep coming back to the more modern machines. I think the 993 will be pretty different to the 996T, though. In the summer of 2017 August, my girlfriend and i drove to the South of France/Spain -3 week break (Labenne, St Jean de Luz, Pyrennese, Biarritz, San Sebastian) in 2017 covering mostly Primary roads and on our return trip back to Calais used secondary roads for different experience and then on to the UK, at the end of that trip my feeling was this was a very capable GT effortlessly fast with ruthless efficiency and very comfortable, i arrived in Labenne on first day of the trip lemon fresh the road trip vacation was overall lovely and the car was impeccably behaved.
Roll on 2018 summer same period August, this jumped in my 997 again – 3.5 week break (Solo this time to really dial in with my car and thoroughly bond with it on varying temps, road surface – Spanish Primary and secondary this time N- Roads). Travelling with Brittany Ferries, the boat sailed from Portsmouth - UK > Santander - Spain. Once I arrived in Santander I headed to Bilbao and stayed with friends and rested for a week and drove using the primary roads heading to the south of Spain via: Covanera > Aranda De’ Duero, Castellon De la Plana, Benicasimm > Valencia > Altea > Alicante > double back to Benicassim > Rioja > Bilbao > Santander Back to UK. Once again the 997 cabriolet was ruthlessly efficient, incredibly fast on the primary roads, planted on the N-Roads and very relaxing. Overall feeling was this was a very capable car. I got back from over 2000miles of driving fresh as a lemon and felt the car was a solid long distance GT… BUT!!!
In 2018 November I made the decision to go Aircooled and got myself a 1997 model year 993 c2 cabriolet, car was in absolutely solid condition, tight as a drum and low mileage for year- bit more than previous 997 and more owners that the 997.
Roll on August 2019- Once again my 3.5 week sojourn was booked, same time, same route. Brittany Ferries > Bilbao. Stay with friends again for 1 week to chill and relax. This time the route strictly and solely secondary: N-260, N- 232 etc etc. Bilbao > Pamplona > Huesca > Jaca > Sitges > Barcelona > Castellon De la Plana > Benicassim > Marina D’or Orropssa > Altea > Double Back to Banicassim > Peniscola > Zaragoza > Bilbao > UK. The 993 was, Blinding!!!
The overall conclusion was pretty simple for me, the drive between Benicassim > Peniscola > Bilbao was the best experience I have had on 4 wheels in my entire life and in all of my over 30 year driving experience. Where the 997 is very fast but soulless vocally, making me feel detached from the experience and creating a need for more speed to get some sort of sensation the 993 massaged you relentlessly with feed back, constant communication and more from the word go. The mechanical feel and solidity of the car was ruthless and I absolutely and ruthlessly canned the 993 hitting the limiter regularly, the car was unrelenting. When I arrived in Zaragoza, I was in such a state of zen and disbelief.
Yeah I could go on but in summary overall, yes the subjectively the 997 is a superior car, it’s newer, faster and modern, BUT!!! Objectively the 993…What a car!
A few years ago I swapped my 997 GTS for a 993 C2, and it was a fantastic decision... until lots of little things went wrong with the 993; the electric windows button, the sunroof, the air conditioning , the break lights, the spoiler electrics, etc etc. All mostly fixable by me (and I am no mechanic, just good at following YouTube videos) except the air con problem which never got resolved, but all still really annoying none the less, and a big reminder that I was driving a 20 odd year old car. Needless to say I went back to a 997 GTS about 2 years later. The crazy thing is, having done that, I really miss the 993 more than any other car I have owned. I am gutted the level maintenance required just didn’t work for me.
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