996 GT3 Cup Car - please someone persuade me not to
Discussion
Ok everyone, here's the thing. I got a M3 CSL a couple of years ago having missed the boat on the cheap 996 GT3s and GT2s that were floating around a couple of heaters before and not wanting to see myself priced out of another cool car before it started climbing fast. Of course CSLs have gone up a lot now, and that has now got me thinking of trying to hop back over into Porsche ownership. So far so good.
Then I started looking at 996 GT3 Cup cars, and the cold sweats began.
My question is, for anyone who knows anything about these things, is a race car as a track car and fun thing to look at a ludicrous and expensive idea? They look about the same money as the road car, and what a great track car it would be. Am i going mad? Will a cold shower and a box round the ears bing me back down to earth? I know about the importance of a recent rebuild of engine and gearbox, but nit much more than that.
And what about long term appreciation? Is it a foolish place to keep money? I'm not in it for the money, but I'd probably feel sick if I saw the road car version rocket in value a la 964 RS.
Help humbly invited!
Then I started looking at 996 GT3 Cup cars, and the cold sweats began.
My question is, for anyone who knows anything about these things, is a race car as a track car and fun thing to look at a ludicrous and expensive idea? They look about the same money as the road car, and what a great track car it would be. Am i going mad? Will a cold shower and a box round the ears bing me back down to earth? I know about the importance of a recent rebuild of engine and gearbox, but nit much more than that.
And what about long term appreciation? Is it a foolish place to keep money? I'm not in it for the money, but I'd probably feel sick if I saw the road car version rocket in value a la 964 RS.
Help humbly invited!
I had a 996 Cup car. I raced it for a few years, used it a few track days and then sold it.
The underpinnings are very very similar to a road GT3 if the car is standard. It is however lighter and stiffer than a road car which is good for track days. You can run it on slicks too which is great fun. The running costs should in fact be lower than a road Gt3 as less weight means less wear on the car. It was built to do this.
The downside is that, once you get the hang of it, you're too fast for a track day. You can out-brake and out-corner most cars and that gets dull. Overtaking under braking or in corners is not commonly allowed on track days and even if it is can be hazardous as the folk on track with you aren't used to that sort of activity. You'll also need a trailer and a tow car.
I'm surprised they are the same price as road versions. They used to be markedly less, supply and demand at work (not many buyers for an older, but not classic, race car).
The underpinnings are very very similar to a road GT3 if the car is standard. It is however lighter and stiffer than a road car which is good for track days. You can run it on slicks too which is great fun. The running costs should in fact be lower than a road Gt3 as less weight means less wear on the car. It was built to do this.
The downside is that, once you get the hang of it, you're too fast for a track day. You can out-brake and out-corner most cars and that gets dull. Overtaking under braking or in corners is not commonly allowed on track days and even if it is can be hazardous as the folk on track with you aren't used to that sort of activity. You'll also need a trailer and a tow car.
I'm surprised they are the same price as road versions. They used to be markedly less, supply and demand at work (not many buyers for an older, but not classic, race car).
Thanks for that helpful and detailed reply. It looks like sensible use doesn't necessarily lead to big bills. Still going in with eyes open obviously. And do you have any views on the market for these things long term? Can you view them even remotely as a long term investment in the way you might a low edition track oriented road car like a GT3 or an RS? Am I delusional to even think about this rather than a 996 GT3 road car? The idea of having the real thing is just too enticing right now...
Out of interest I had a flick through race cars direct to see the prices and availability. There seem very few and prices were higher than I imagined.
In 2007 I bought an early, 1999 car that had been used in the F1 support races - that was £21k! It was very well used and rather battered. At that time it was the slowest of the 996 Cup cars, being the earliest, and you couldn't give them away. I raced it for a few years, smartened it up a bit and sold it in 2012/3 for £28k as I wasn't using it and it was too quick for track days.
I'd be amazed if the race cars held their price in the same way as the road cars, but perhaps in the long term that is what happens as they are rarer and some have racing provenance. The road car appeals to a much wider audience as it is day to day usable versus a race car that needs trailering to a track and is no use to you any other time.
Race cars are often governed in pricing terms by what use they can be out to, ie what series you can run them in. When I bought mine they were becoming old hat for the clubman racer who wanted a new 996 or the incoming 997 Cup. A slightly out of date race car is not a much loved beast. Once they become "classic" they become more popular again and prices rise. In my mind I had thought it was another 20 years until 996 Cup cars became desirable, but maybe I'm wrong.
In 2007 I bought an early, 1999 car that had been used in the F1 support races - that was £21k! It was very well used and rather battered. At that time it was the slowest of the 996 Cup cars, being the earliest, and you couldn't give them away. I raced it for a few years, smartened it up a bit and sold it in 2012/3 for £28k as I wasn't using it and it was too quick for track days.
I'd be amazed if the race cars held their price in the same way as the road cars, but perhaps in the long term that is what happens as they are rarer and some have racing provenance. The road car appeals to a much wider audience as it is day to day usable versus a race car that needs trailering to a track and is no use to you any other time.
Race cars are often governed in pricing terms by what use they can be out to, ie what series you can run them in. When I bought mine they were becoming old hat for the clubman racer who wanted a new 996 or the incoming 997 Cup. A slightly out of date race car is not a much loved beast. Once they become "classic" they become more popular again and prices rise. In my mind I had thought it was another 20 years until 996 Cup cars became desirable, but maybe I'm wrong.
Haha yes Jimmy not long ago you could get a 993 Cup for about 40-50 K now they seem to be 250-300 k .............. goes down for years and then .......
Nice to have H patern box ...... and basic to run ......tracks are now full of 600 bhp plus road cars on new rubber which has changed things ..
Get one with a nice history if possible ....
Nice to have H patern box ...... and basic to run ......tracks are now full of 600 bhp plus road cars on new rubber which has changed things ..
Get one with a nice history if possible ....
Prices for these do seem to have gone up quite drastically, I was also keeping my eye on Ferrari challenge cars / road legal which are now crazy prices...be interesting to see if you buy one and how much it costs to run etc, I'd love a blast round a track in one, so let me have a drive if you do!!!! 
LordHaveMurci said:
A chap on here bought one for trackdays a while ago I'm sure, can't remember who it was though, hopefully he'll see this & respond.
Possibly thinking of gordonc - who bought a 997 Cup for track days. I don't think the comments above about running costs being similar to a road-going GT3 are accurate, these are expensive beasts to run. The gearbox and engine are lifed by hours (as in most race cars) and at 40/20 hrs respectively you should expect to invest heavily. With an engine build costing around £20k and a gearbox around £10k the number of hours on the car can substantially alter the value.
That said, they are stupendously competent track cars and pretty much nothing that doesn't have full-on downforce will keep up.
Order66 said:
Possibly thinking of gordonc - who bought a 997 Cup for track days.
I don't think the comments above about running costs being similar to a road-going GT3 are accurate, these are expensive beasts to run. The gearbox and engine are lifed by hours (as in most race cars) and at 40/20 hrs respectively you should expect to invest heavily. With an engine build costing around £20k and a gearbox around £10k the number of hours on the car can substantially alter the value.
That said, they are stupendously competent track cars and pretty much nothing that doesn't have full-on downforce will keep up.
Whilst you're right about being lifed in hours, that's for those driving them flat out in the Carrera Cup, top flight GT3 races and so on. Track day use tends to be much easier than racing use. Racing needs every available rev, inevitably shifts are rushed and sometimes ragged, the limiter gets hit often and so on. I don't think the comments above about running costs being similar to a road-going GT3 are accurate, these are expensive beasts to run. The gearbox and engine are lifed by hours (as in most race cars) and at 40/20 hrs respectively you should expect to invest heavily. With an engine build costing around £20k and a gearbox around £10k the number of hours on the car can substantially alter the value.
That said, they are stupendously competent track cars and pretty much nothing that doesn't have full-on downforce will keep up.
There are also serious differences between a 996 and 997 Cup car...
- 996 is much much closer to the road car. It has an almost identical engine and 'box. That 'box is standard H pattern manual. It's lighter than a road 996 so all things being equal the brakes and suspension have less to do. Why would you expect it to be pricier for track day usage than the road going equivalent? How often to track day goers have their GT3 engine rebuilt? If and when you rebuild a GT3 engine it is a serious job because you tend to replace many of the more fragile parts as part of preventative maintenance, but that's the same for any GT3.
- 997 Cup was a more specialised beast. The 'box in particular was a racing sequential that tended to be fragile and need regular rebuilds. The engines too needed more careful warming up and could go into limp home if you weren't nice to it. They were a step-up in running costs when used for racing. I have heard that since they became more accessible some have been used on the track day scene - Steve Rance did this and posted about it last year. When used more lightly at a track day the feedback suggests they can go much longer between rebuilds; that was Steve's view and early experience.
Hunter's point below is a good one. These race cars are ultimately quick, but it's in the corners and braking. The modern mega horsepower cars are fast on the straight which could make for a frustrating track day experience. Your 996/7 will be faster, but if you can't overtake under braking or in corners and are forever held up in those places you will be rather miffed as the mobile chicane in front of you gives it the gas on the straight and pulls away from you; repeat again at next twisty section!
In my several years of running, racing and track daying a 996 Cup car I replaced types regularly, brake pads/discs infrequently, an alternator, a few gearbox bits (not the whole thing, just the worn bits) and nothing much else. It never let me down in race or track day form. It's not expensive to run so far as these things go, but running anything regularly on track is a pricey game.
As I recently bought a 2004 Cup, let me use this as my first post.
After having been doing trackdays and some racing for 12 years, I was looking for a very pure track car with a closed cockpit and one that would not break the bank. I have been tracking a 991RS for the past two years, and whilst this is an incredible car, it has become too costly to repair these in case of accidents which limits the fun. I considered various options from a stripped E46 M3 to 997 Cup, but the 996 Cup ticked the right boxes being reasonably simple to run, fast but not too fast, solid and a bit collectible. Two main points that stood out were the manual box, which is more durable than the 997 sequential and the fact that it has ABS.
If you race these cars and maintain to Porsche standards they are way more expense than a regular GT3. But if a few tenths per lap don't matter, you can easily extend the engine life beyond 100h and run used slicks at less than 50% of the cost. Accident damage would not have to be repaired to the same standard as a road car and doesn't impact the resale value as much. Parts are also reasonably cheap.
I did my first day at Zandvoort last week and love the car. I have it transported and supported on track which costs me about £500 (as the car is stored locally to Zandvoort). You do need someone who can change wheels and look after the car, as it requires a bit more work on track than a road car due to the high forces and the way it's constructed. I was immediately 2s faster in the Cup than in my 991RS on very used slicks and reckon the ultimate difference on a shortish track like Zandvoort will be 4-5s, to give an indication of performance. The car is also very physical, so you need to be fairly fit to run it at a decent speed for longer stints. But the big surprise is that it feels very much like a normal GT3, except for the extreme noise. A spare silent exhaust is recommended.
Since these are now eligible for several young timer race series, they are becoming more popular. This means prices have gone up a bit, though they are still reasonable (expect about 50-60k for a decent car), but there is also a reasonable market for (non OEM) parts and tyres.
After having been doing trackdays and some racing for 12 years, I was looking for a very pure track car with a closed cockpit and one that would not break the bank. I have been tracking a 991RS for the past two years, and whilst this is an incredible car, it has become too costly to repair these in case of accidents which limits the fun. I considered various options from a stripped E46 M3 to 997 Cup, but the 996 Cup ticked the right boxes being reasonably simple to run, fast but not too fast, solid and a bit collectible. Two main points that stood out were the manual box, which is more durable than the 997 sequential and the fact that it has ABS.
If you race these cars and maintain to Porsche standards they are way more expense than a regular GT3. But if a few tenths per lap don't matter, you can easily extend the engine life beyond 100h and run used slicks at less than 50% of the cost. Accident damage would not have to be repaired to the same standard as a road car and doesn't impact the resale value as much. Parts are also reasonably cheap.
I did my first day at Zandvoort last week and love the car. I have it transported and supported on track which costs me about £500 (as the car is stored locally to Zandvoort). You do need someone who can change wheels and look after the car, as it requires a bit more work on track than a road car due to the high forces and the way it's constructed. I was immediately 2s faster in the Cup than in my 991RS on very used slicks and reckon the ultimate difference on a shortish track like Zandvoort will be 4-5s, to give an indication of performance. The car is also very physical, so you need to be fairly fit to run it at a decent speed for longer stints. But the big surprise is that it feels very much like a normal GT3, except for the extreme noise. A spare silent exhaust is recommended.
Since these are now eligible for several young timer race series, they are becoming more popular. This means prices have gone up a bit, though they are still reasonable (expect about 50-60k for a decent car), but there is also a reasonable market for (non OEM) parts and tyres.
Edited by ralfw on Monday 17th April 14:40
88racing said:
For which of course you'll need a race license - but that's easy to get - you'll only need a Nat B.
Test days come with their own issues in my experience. These are days for being fully "on it", testing race pace and set ups, used by many for pre race practice for the coming weekend etc. They aren't great places for the typical track day goer - you'll have frustrated racing drivers all over you and passing willy-nilly. jimmyslr said:
Test days come with their own issues in my experience. These are days for being fully "on it", testing race pace and set ups, used by many for pre race practice for the coming weekend etc. They aren't great places for the typical track day goer - you'll have frustrated racing drivers all over you and passing willy-nilly.
Race drivers tend to use track days to do that's also, it's very annoying, but no less annoying than a cup car in Slicks up your arse, imo slicks should be banned on track days, and cars should be road legal. You see too much s
t on track days.If you want to run slicks like some one said goto test days.
Porsche911R said:
jimmyslr said:
Test days come with their own issues in my experience. These are days for being fully "on it", testing race pace and set ups, used by many for pre race practice for the coming weekend etc. They aren't great places for the typical track day goer - you'll have frustrated racing drivers all over you and passing willy-nilly.
Race drivers tend to use track days to do that's alsoRunning a car on slicks, does not necessarily make a car fast.....
A test day is very different to a track day with a few slick shod cars hooning around. The pace is far higher, and within reason, anything goes.
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