What happened to the bubble?
Discussion
Maxige said:
MDL111 said:
Sure - a black one at the southern Porsche dealer in Munich and a silver one at Porsche Inntal - from memory now at c 680k and 640k euros. I think the black one was at c 740k last winter and the silver one had various prices, I think in the high 600s and low 700s
Thanks!! Thought you were referring to UK dealers and I was surprised to have missed two cars for sale here!! 
It's all a bit daft really though, isn't it?
I look forward to a time when beautiful cars like a CGT or 959 are worth a sensible price, e.g. the modern equivalent of what they cost new (or maybe a few times that!). Today's kind of car prices are obviously not hiked up by enthusiasts, they are set by the tiny elite of investors and hedge fund managers (no offence to hedge fund managers) who have suddenly decided in the last few years that they need to join the party, make a sound investment and have the most classic of classic cars, and the more cash that has been chucked at them, the more exotic and enticing they become.
Good luck to them in a way but its all a bit stupid really. Many die-hard, genuine enthusiasts don't live in a freaking house worth £600K!
When the rich kids leave the party it will be back to middle aged nerds who spend all their time on PH. Good job too.
I look forward to a time when beautiful cars like a CGT or 959 are worth a sensible price, e.g. the modern equivalent of what they cost new (or maybe a few times that!). Today's kind of car prices are obviously not hiked up by enthusiasts, they are set by the tiny elite of investors and hedge fund managers (no offence to hedge fund managers) who have suddenly decided in the last few years that they need to join the party, make a sound investment and have the most classic of classic cars, and the more cash that has been chucked at them, the more exotic and enticing they become.
Good luck to them in a way but its all a bit stupid really. Many die-hard, genuine enthusiasts don't live in a freaking house worth £600K!
When the rich kids leave the party it will be back to middle aged nerds who spend all their time on PH. Good job too.
Edited by chrisgaia on Friday 15th September 22:57
Here's a bubble for you. My old man bought this car brand new in 1964 for about a grand. Any guesses what it will go for now?
http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
I was going to say b
ks but changed it to I disagree.
Whilst the very top end of the market maybe driven by .com billionaires and the like I don't think the same applies to us lowly surfs in the sub £1,000,000 bracket. To completely restore a pre 73 911 to its former glory will set you back at least £100,000. Not viable on a £50,000 car but viable on a £150,000 car. So you could argue that the market has allowed more cars to be saved from the scrap heap. My good friend not that long ago was throwing 65 911 shells in the skip as they had no value. The historic racing scene has fuelled their meteoric rise in price for both race cars and road cars. As for 959's when they were £150,000 cars. The replacement component costs were and are still horrendous. A clutch is something like £12,000. Rear engine lid £21,000 and the list goes on. At least a 993GT2 could be run on a sensible budget. At £300,000 for a CGT even in todays market that is still a very big chunk of money and still not attainable for most of us. But you might just be willing to take a punt on a very low interest loan in the hope you can not only savour the delights of such an icon but actually a few years down the road come out way in front. You would not to do that if you thought in three years time it would halve in value.
I think that the modern day lack of individuality of road cars in general. Samish looking boring euro boxes and the thought of moving to EV's (wash my mouth out with soap) has fuelled the interest in some people, petrolheads wanting to go back to enjoying analogue cars. Stuff that allows you to be fully in control of your own destiny. Be it a MK1 escort, old Rover, Custom Car, Hot Rod. As most have rotted out and were worth nothing they died on the crap heap. Supply and demand for some means prices have risen. So not all bad news
ks but changed it to I disagree.Whilst the very top end of the market maybe driven by .com billionaires and the like I don't think the same applies to us lowly surfs in the sub £1,000,000 bracket. To completely restore a pre 73 911 to its former glory will set you back at least £100,000. Not viable on a £50,000 car but viable on a £150,000 car. So you could argue that the market has allowed more cars to be saved from the scrap heap. My good friend not that long ago was throwing 65 911 shells in the skip as they had no value. The historic racing scene has fuelled their meteoric rise in price for both race cars and road cars. As for 959's when they were £150,000 cars. The replacement component costs were and are still horrendous. A clutch is something like £12,000. Rear engine lid £21,000 and the list goes on. At least a 993GT2 could be run on a sensible budget. At £300,000 for a CGT even in todays market that is still a very big chunk of money and still not attainable for most of us. But you might just be willing to take a punt on a very low interest loan in the hope you can not only savour the delights of such an icon but actually a few years down the road come out way in front. You would not to do that if you thought in three years time it would halve in value.
I think that the modern day lack of individuality of road cars in general. Samish looking boring euro boxes and the thought of moving to EV's (wash my mouth out with soap) has fuelled the interest in some people, petrolheads wanting to go back to enjoying analogue cars. Stuff that allows you to be fully in control of your own destiny. Be it a MK1 escort, old Rover, Custom Car, Hot Rod. As most have rotted out and were worth nothing they died on the crap heap. Supply and demand for some means prices have risen. So not all bad news
chrisgaia said:
Here's a bubble for you. My old man bought this car brand new in 1964 for about a grand. Any guesses what it will go for now?
http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
£900,000 am I close ?http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
FrankCayman said:
How funny...I was only speaking to a classic car auction house the other day ....along with a potential storage business...and they both said things were very 'flat'.....
100%. I was in Jzm a few weeks back and they said prices had definitely softened.
They were reducing cars whilst I was there .
SRT Hellcat said:
I was going to say bks but changed it to I disagree.
Whilst the very top end of the market maybe driven by .com billionaires and the like I don't think the same applies to us lowly surfs in the sub £1,000,000 bracket. To completely restore a pre 73 911 to its former glory will set you back at least £100,000. Not viable on a £50,000 car but viable on a £150,000 car. So you could argue that the market has allowed more cars to be saved from the scrap heap. My good friend not that long ago was throwing 65 911 shells in the skip as they had no value. The historic racing scene has fuelled their meteoric rise in price for both race cars and road cars. As for 959's when they were £150,000 cars. The replacement component costs were and are still horrendous. A clutch is something like £12,000. Rear engine lid £21,000 and the list goes on. At least a 993GT2 could be run on a sensible budget. At £300,000 for a CGT even in todays market that is still a very big chunk of money and still not attainable for most of us. But you might just be willing to take a punt on a very low interest loan in the hope you can not only savour the delights of such an icon but actually a few years down the road come out way in front. You would not to do that if you thought in three years time it would halve in value.
I think that the modern day lack of individuality of road cars in general. Samish looking boring euro boxes and the thought of moving to EV's (wash my mouth out with soap) has fuelled the interest in some people, petrolheads wanting to go back to enjoying analogue cars. Stuff that allows you to be fully in control of your own destiny. Be it a MK1 escort, old Rover, Custom Car, Hot Rod. As most have rotted out and were worth nothing they died on the crap heap. Supply and demand for some means prices have risen. So not all bad news
Yes but what has fuelled the historic racing scene? Fair point about 959s and to a certain extent about car restoration but I do not buy that old pork was routinely being turned into baked bean cans until the renaissance hit, maybe the neglected and abused ones. My point is that it feels like a fashion and a very recent one. In 2010 ALL Porsches were worth didley compared to now. What changed SO MUCH in that space of time? IMHO it was a mixture of economics, fashion and most definitely investment, especially high end investment (which was not just at the top end). A large portfolio of £100,000 cars is worth £1000,000s if you do the maths right. And of course us normal mugs played our part as well.ks but changed it to I disagree.Whilst the very top end of the market maybe driven by .com billionaires and the like I don't think the same applies to us lowly surfs in the sub £1,000,000 bracket. To completely restore a pre 73 911 to its former glory will set you back at least £100,000. Not viable on a £50,000 car but viable on a £150,000 car. So you could argue that the market has allowed more cars to be saved from the scrap heap. My good friend not that long ago was throwing 65 911 shells in the skip as they had no value. The historic racing scene has fuelled their meteoric rise in price for both race cars and road cars. As for 959's when they were £150,000 cars. The replacement component costs were and are still horrendous. A clutch is something like £12,000. Rear engine lid £21,000 and the list goes on. At least a 993GT2 could be run on a sensible budget. At £300,000 for a CGT even in todays market that is still a very big chunk of money and still not attainable for most of us. But you might just be willing to take a punt on a very low interest loan in the hope you can not only savour the delights of such an icon but actually a few years down the road come out way in front. You would not to do that if you thought in three years time it would halve in value.
I think that the modern day lack of individuality of road cars in general. Samish looking boring euro boxes and the thought of moving to EV's (wash my mouth out with soap) has fuelled the interest in some people, petrolheads wanting to go back to enjoying analogue cars. Stuff that allows you to be fully in control of your own destiny. Be it a MK1 escort, old Rover, Custom Car, Hot Rod. As most have rotted out and were worth nothing they died on the crap heap. Supply and demand for some means prices have risen. So not all bad news
I never said there were no upsides, there's plenty and my Save the Posrche fund hopes they keep going up. But I've said it before and I will say it again, it's all Vladdy stupid. Let's go back to 3.2s at £10K and RSs at £35K (preferably after I have sold mine at the top of the market)
;-)
chrisgaia said:
Here's a bubble for you. My old man bought this car brand new in 1964 for about a grand. Any guesses what it will go for now?
http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
Sad to see it only has 11,900 miles. Only 3 owners what were they saving it for?http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
I'm sure the upkeep won't have been cheap for 53 years.
The market is certainly not as buoyant as it was 2 years ago. I sold a brand new 991GT3RS towards the end last year and barely made list.
I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
SRT Hellcat said:
I was going to say bks but changed it to I disagree.
Whilst the very top end of the market maybe driven by .com billionaires and the like I don't think the same applies to us lowly surfs in the sub £1,000,000 bracket. To completely restore a pre 73 911 to its former glory will set you back at least £100,000. Not viable on a £50,000 car but viable on a £150,000 car. So you could argue that the market has allowed more cars to be saved from the scrap heap. My good friend not that long ago was throwing 65 911 shells in the skip as they had no value. The historic racing scene has fuelled their meteoric rise in price for both race cars and road cars. As for 959's when they were £150,000 cars. The replacement component costs were and are still horrendous. A clutch is something like £12,000. Rear engine lid £21,000 and the list goes on. At least a 993GT2 could be run on a sensible budget. At £300,000 for a CGT even in todays market that is still a very big chunk of money and still not attainable for most of us. But you might just be willing to take a punt on a very low interest loan in the hope you can not only savour the delights of such an icon but actually a few years down the road come out way in front. You would not to do that if you thought in three years time it would halve in value.
I think that the modern day lack of individuality of road cars in general. Samish looking boring euro boxes and the thought of moving to EV's (wash my mouth out with soap) has fuelled the interest in some people, petrolheads wanting to go back to enjoying analogue cars. Stuff that allows you to be fully in control of your own destiny. Be it a MK1 escort, old Rover, Custom Car, Hot Rod. As most have rotted out and were worth nothing they died on the crap heap. Supply and demand for some means prices have risen. So not all bad news
Sure more a saved but the flip side is that you can't afford to buy an old 911 to then just turn into a non original driving car anymore at sensible cost. A large number just gets restored to as new or very similar to original condition ks but changed it to I disagree.Whilst the very top end of the market maybe driven by .com billionaires and the like I don't think the same applies to us lowly surfs in the sub £1,000,000 bracket. To completely restore a pre 73 911 to its former glory will set you back at least £100,000. Not viable on a £50,000 car but viable on a £150,000 car. So you could argue that the market has allowed more cars to be saved from the scrap heap. My good friend not that long ago was throwing 65 911 shells in the skip as they had no value. The historic racing scene has fuelled their meteoric rise in price for both race cars and road cars. As for 959's when they were £150,000 cars. The replacement component costs were and are still horrendous. A clutch is something like £12,000. Rear engine lid £21,000 and the list goes on. At least a 993GT2 could be run on a sensible budget. At £300,000 for a CGT even in todays market that is still a very big chunk of money and still not attainable for most of us. But you might just be willing to take a punt on a very low interest loan in the hope you can not only savour the delights of such an icon but actually a few years down the road come out way in front. You would not to do that if you thought in three years time it would halve in value.
I think that the modern day lack of individuality of road cars in general. Samish looking boring euro boxes and the thought of moving to EV's (wash my mouth out with soap) has fuelled the interest in some people, petrolheads wanting to go back to enjoying analogue cars. Stuff that allows you to be fully in control of your own destiny. Be it a MK1 escort, old Rover, Custom Car, Hot Rod. As most have rotted out and were worth nothing they died on the crap heap. Supply and demand for some means prices have risen. So not all bad news
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
The market is certainly not as buoyant as it was 2 years ago. I sold a brand new 991GT3RS towards the end last year and barely made list.
I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
Yes but yours is a special - if very awesome - case which does not get bought by people looking at money preservation/potential gain. I come across it regularly when browsing the classifieds and still think it is a great car and for the right buyer preferable to a standard car, but there are very few of those buyers nowadays as it is still quite pricey as a largely track use car and more expensive than buying a Cup car, which the hardcore track day guy might prefer I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
MDL111 said:
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
The market is certainly not as buoyant as it was 2 years ago. I sold a brand new 991GT3RS towards the end last year and barely made list.
I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
Yes but yours is a special - if very awesome - case which does not get bought by people looking at money preservation/potential gain. I come across it regularly when browsing the classifieds and still think it is a great car and for the right buyer preferable to a standard car, but there are very few of those buyers nowadays as it is still quite pricey as a largely track use car and more expensive than buying a Cup car, which the hardcore track day guy might prefer I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
A CUP car is not really a comparison; my car is not a track car, it has never seen a track in anger and is in exceptional order. CUP cars by there very nature are pushed to 11/10th's every time they are driven.
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
MDL111 said:
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
The market is certainly not as buoyant as it was 2 years ago. I sold a brand new 991GT3RS towards the end last year and barely made list.
I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
Yes but yours is a special - if very awesome - case which does not get bought by people looking at money preservation/potential gain. I come across it regularly when browsing the classifieds and still think it is a great car and for the right buyer preferable to a standard car, but there are very few of those buyers nowadays as it is still quite pricey as a largely track use car and more expensive than buying a Cup car, which the hardcore track day guy might prefer I also tried to sell my 997GT3RS a few times and very few showed any interest.
I can prove the market isn't where the advertised prices are simply by doing a little experiment:
The cheapest 997GT3RS currently on PH is £133K (the black orange one). If I offered my one now for a full £20k off that price, it should sell within 5 minutes if the market was as projected by the advertised prices...
A CUP car is not really a comparison; my car is not a track car, it has never seen a track in anger and is in exceptional order. CUP cars by there very nature are pushed to 11/10th's every time they are driven.
How is the 996 project going, haven't seen that thread for a while on the front page?
MDL111 said:
I agree with you, but the market is unfortunately very much driven by originality as opposed to improved parts - as a result I think the buyer for your car is more towards the track day spectrum of buyers as opposed to the I buy a GT car for weekends type person. I seriously considered your car when it was last for sale (I think anyway that it was yours, at the time at a Radical dealer I believe) but then bought a GT2 CS instead - around q4 2014 from memory). As said great car with some great improvements over standard.
How is the 996 project going, haven't seen that thread for a while on the front page?
You are correct it is the Teichmann car (Radical importer Deutschland) but really Porsche racing is their core business (for the last 2 years they have dominated GT4 racing at the VLN). It was towards the end of 2014 that I bought the car. No regrets, it is an absolute weapon. In any measurable way if far surpasses any stock RS you want to play it off against and most of the parts fitted are infact OEM Porsche (Engine, gearbox, steering system, spoiler, Steering wheel, splitter, airbox). The rest are parts associated to Porsche racing like the BBS wheels, Suspension... All the carbon parts are stupidly expensive Cargraphic TUV approved, then the Akrapovic TUV approved full system, again now an OEM supplier. It isn't your typical bolt on cheap stuff. How is the 996 project going, haven't seen that thread for a while on the front page?
Anyway I clearly don't need to try to convince you
I hadn't driven the 996 for 3 months as I had the LSD redesigned. Just picked it up the last week but have been in Portugal and Italy with work since so no chance to bed it in yet. The timing seems to be a bit variable with power down since last time, so I think the chain tensioners need replacing. As soon as I have replaced them and bed in the LSD, I'll get the car finished, TUV approved and tested in video format
It was also recently the cover feature car in 911&PW. I can send you a copy via email if you want to read it
chrisgaia said:
Here's a bubble for you. My old man bought this car brand new in 1964 for about a grand. Any guesses what it will go for now?
http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
http://ddclassics.com/car-listing/ac-cobra-289-mar...
rubystone said:
SRT Hellcat said:
£900,000 am I close ?
I'd say £1.1m. Rod Leach had a similar car for sale this year at that levelIt did not sell at Bonhams in 2010 apparently (£250-300K) but sold afterwards (for less I presume). Nice chap at DD Classics, invited me down for a drink and a chat, which I will take him up on. My Dad would have loved that but he passed earlier this year.
g7jhp said:
Sad to see it only has 11,900 miles. Only 3 owners what were they saving it for?
Unbelievable condition and the guy at DD Classics did imply that some people found the 11,000 miles unbelievable! Looks concourse in the photos. Slightly different colour to the only photo I can find of it. 
I don't think my Dad did so many miles in it as he sold it in 1966 and bought a brand new green one for some reason, I think he wanted the mark 3, which I have loads of photos of. Shame I have never been able to trace that one.
Edited by chrisgaia on Saturday 16th September 17:25
I clearly remember him selling this one, the guy who came to buy it in a Triumph Stag. I must have been 4 or 5, I was gutted.
Sorry this thread has got me going right down memory lane and digressing off topic!
Edited by chrisgaia on Saturday 16th September 17:32
Edited by chrisgaia on Saturday 16th September 17:38
Edited by chrisgaia on Saturday 16th September 17:57
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
The market is certainly not as buoyant as it was 2 years ago. I sold a brand new 991GT3RS towards the end last year and barely made list.
So you tried to flip a 991RS in the continent but failed to get much out of it. That's as good a reason as any for people to look forward to the bubble coming to an end or at the very least stalling.isaldiri said:
So you tried to flip a 991RS in the continent but failed to get much out of it. That's as good a reason as any for people to look forward to the bubble coming to an end or at the very least stalling.
Not quite; I went in 50:50 with somebody and they pulled out before delivery meaning I was faced with a rather large invoice to settle. In the end the easiest way out was to pass on the car to a friend, so I ended up about 2k down and they were very happy. I was originally offered the allocation by my OPC. At the time (about 18months before delivery) what idiot would have turned down the opportunity? It was never really something I set-out to do, more a case of an opportunity presenting itself. I don't think anyone else here would have stepped away from it if they were being 100% honest (at the time they were making around 100k overs). I'm just glad to have walked away from it all relatively unscathed.
I fully agree the market has skewed and made it so difficult for enthusiasts to truly enjoy their P&J or even buy the car of their dreams in the first place. I didn't create this though and didn't make a penny out of it. The sooner I can buy an NSX for £17k or a 964RS for £25K again cannot come soon enough as far as I'm concerned. My biggest gripe with all this, is more the fact that people no longer drive these fabulous machines due to Ferrari syndrome (mileage sensitivity).
Trust me you wont find a bigger enthusiast, I have spend/wasted over 115k on a lowly 996C2. I don't think you will find another person who has followed their passion to this extreme, with no thoughts about value and future saleability whatsoever. My 996 will never be sold!
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