Porsche 996 Turbo
Discussion
996TT02 said:
jimPH said:
Digga said:
f it hasn't had a gearbox overhaul it will definitely need one.
Absolute rubbish.At around 70k miles.
1,300 Euros in parts alone - not for all the bearings, just the failed pair and a couple others replaced as a precaution, some bearings cost 400 euro each. And related seals also replaced as a precaution.
The full set of bearings and other bits for a full rebuild of parts that wear, I calculated, IIRC would have cost around 5k, excluding gearsets.
Interestingly? Some bearings I replaced don't appear anywhere on Porsche's catalogue, not even OPC could id. Just not on the drawings, so impossible to source officially. Thankfully shared with older models, going back to the G50 box so with some serious sleuthing and also measurement it was possible to find a supplier (FVD).
Shortly after, the diff internals lost a couple of teeth... and this part does not even have a part number, apparently you can only buy complete with gearbox... for something like 10k+. Luckily sourced one from the States. Alternatively, an aftermarket LSD would have gone in.
I don't dispute the cost, just your reasoning.
I'm looking at upgrades because I'm well in excess of standard power, guards diff is the one to have, the casings are what break. Rebuild can get pricey though agreed, but if it's a car on standard power or a remap, the gearbox will no doubt be fine.
Second gear pop out can happen at any time.
Edited by jimPH on Saturday 13th January 18:13
Ive had a 996T for 11yrs and done nearly 90,000 miles, its a great car. I might have been lucky but my bills have been nothing like some of those quoted, probably well less than £1000 on average a year.
I always have a chuckle when I watch this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJemsVMhEhs
I always have a chuckle when I watch this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJemsVMhEhs
jimPH said:
Digga said:
f it hasn't had a gearbox overhaul it will definitely need one.
Absolute rubbish.Mileage is almost irrelevant, because there are so many other variables; mechanical sympathy of drivers, types of journeys the mileage has been accrued over, power modifications. One thing that's statistically certain is that the further any car goes, the more likely it is to need attention. Sure, a car could theoretically do 300,000 miles, but it'd be an outlier.
From what I've been told and learned, many of the weaknesses of the 'box are in the assembly, not necessarily in the deficiency or specification of the components.
Digga said:
jimPH said:
Digga said:
f it hasn't had a gearbox overhaul it will definitely need one.
Absolute rubbish.Mileage is almost irrelevant, because there are so many other variables; mechanical sympathy of drivers, types of journeys the mileage has been accrued over, power modifications. One thing that's statistically certain is that the further any car goes, the more likely it is to need attention. Sure, a car could theoretically do 300,000 miles, but it'd be an outlier.
From what I've been told and learned, many of the weaknesses of the 'box are in the assembly, not necessarily in the deficiency or specification of the components.
There's no 100k rule on the turbo gearbox. So scaremongering anyone buying a car with that mileage due to box failure is quite frankly utter codswallop.
jimPH said:
Digga said:
jimPH said:
Digga said:
f it hasn't had a gearbox overhaul it will definitely need one.
Absolute rubbish.Mileage is almost irrelevant, because there are so many other variables; mechanical sympathy of drivers, types of journeys the mileage has been accrued over, power modifications. One thing that's statistically certain is that the further any car goes, the more likely it is to need attention. Sure, a car could theoretically do 300,000 miles, but it'd be an outlier.
From what I've been told and learned, many of the weaknesses of the 'box are in the assembly, not necessarily in the deficiency or specification of the components.
There's no 100k rule on the turbo gearbox. So scaremongering anyone buying a car with that mileage due to box failure is quite frankly utter codswallop.
However... that's really hard to do. When my car developed 2nd gear pop-out, I recon a decent PPI (yes, more fool me, I know) would (if they were specifically looking out for it) have identified the issue. Hours poring over all service bills would also, eventually have found a tell tale line item too; GTech gearbox detent - a device used to cure symptoms (but not the cause) of pop-out. It was only once the 'box was in bits, were the other issues were unearthed.
Charles22 said:
Ive had a 996T for 11yrs and done nearly 90,000 miles, its a great car. I might have been lucky but my bills have been nothing like some of those quoted, probably well less than £1000 on average a year.
I always have a chuckle when I watch this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJemsVMhEhs
Yep. They're fantastic cars. That lap time, in the wet, really puts it into perspective.I always have a chuckle when I watch this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJemsVMhEhs
jimPH said:
Your gearbox needed a rebuild. Plenty going further without. A sample size of one is hardly scientific. Mine is going well beyond 100k. There's no fact that it will need a rebuild after 100k.
I don't dispute the cost, just your reasoning.
I'm looking at upgrades because I'm well in excess of standard power, guards diff is the one to have, the casings are what break. Rebuild can get pricey though agreed, but if it's a car on standard power or a remap, the gearbox will no doubt be fine.
Second gear pop out can happen at any time.
No, my point is, the very particular bearing that did fail is well known to fail in these boxes. No, they won't all fail below/above any specific mileage. But it's not about "needing a rebuild" as if that were something to be expected, regular wear and tear. This was entirely about a specific bearing - that does fail for a certain percentage of owners. My car is 100% standard no power increase of any sort. Obviously once the box is open you do tend to spend a bit more on parts than just the bare minimum.I don't dispute the cost, just your reasoning.
I'm looking at upgrades because I'm well in excess of standard power, guards diff is the one to have, the casings are what break. Rebuild can get pricey though agreed, but if it's a car on standard power or a remap, the gearbox will no doubt be fine.
Second gear pop out can happen at any time.
Edited by jimPH on Saturday 13th January 18:13
When trying to identify the problem I trawled up lots of info and saved it, here are just a couple of quotes:
"I then figured I could try to email a US-based company called G Box, that specialises in rebuilding Porsche gearboxes.
Got an answer within 30 minutes.
"This is a classic pinion bearing, thrust bearing problem. The part number is
999-052-164-00"
And
"Those of us in the gearbox business see that bearing go bad all the time. That same bearing is in all Cup Cars and GT3s in addition to the Turbos. for the street cars it tends to wear out faster on the turbos, and you hear about it more often on them than GT3s, probably because of the difference in power levels. But it is a known weak point of the gearbox, and thus why the guy at Gbox called it the "typical thrust bearing" failure."
996TT02 said:
No, my point is, the very particular bearing that did fail is well known to fail in these boxes. No, they won't all fail below/above any specific mileage. But it's not about "needing a rebuild" as if that were something to be expected, regular wear and tear. This was entirely about a specific bearing - that does fail for a certain percentage of owners. My car is 100% standard no power increase of any sort. Obviously once the box is open you do tend to spend a bit more on parts than just the bare minimum.
When trying to identify the problem I trawled up lots of info and saved it, here are just a couple of quotes:
"I then figured I could try to email a US-based company called G Box, that specialises in rebuilding Porsche gearboxes.
Got an answer within 30 minutes.
"This is a classic pinion bearing, thrust bearing problem. The part number is
999-052-164-00"
And
"Those of us in the gearbox business see that bearing go bad all the time. That same bearing is in all Cup Cars and GT3s in addition to the Turbos. for the street cars it tends to wear out faster on the turbos, and you hear about it more often on them than GT3s, probably because of the difference in power levels. But it is a known weak point of the gearbox, and thus why the guy at Gbox called it the "typical thrust bearing" failure."
It's just strange as I've never heard anyone on here have it go, or on 911uk or on the porscheclubgb website. What were the symptoms that let you know it had gone?When trying to identify the problem I trawled up lots of info and saved it, here are just a couple of quotes:
"I then figured I could try to email a US-based company called G Box, that specialises in rebuilding Porsche gearboxes.
Got an answer within 30 minutes.
"This is a classic pinion bearing, thrust bearing problem. The part number is
999-052-164-00"
And
"Those of us in the gearbox business see that bearing go bad all the time. That same bearing is in all Cup Cars and GT3s in addition to the Turbos. for the street cars it tends to wear out faster on the turbos, and you hear about it more often on them than GT3s, probably because of the difference in power levels. But it is a known weak point of the gearbox, and thus why the guy at Gbox called it the "typical thrust bearing" failure."
chriscoates81 said:
996TT02 said:
No, my point is, the very particular bearing that did fail is well known to fail in these boxes. No, they won't all fail below/above any specific mileage. But it's not about "needing a rebuild" as if that were something to be expected, regular wear and tear. This was entirely about a specific bearing - that does fail for a certain percentage of owners. My car is 100% standard no power increase of any sort. Obviously once the box is open you do tend to spend a bit more on parts than just the bare minimum.
When trying to identify the problem I trawled up lots of info and saved it, here are just a couple of quotes:
"I then figured I could try to email a US-based company called G Box, that specialises in rebuilding Porsche gearboxes.
Got an answer within 30 minutes.
"This is a classic pinion bearing, thrust bearing problem. The part number is
999-052-164-00"
And
"Those of us in the gearbox business see that bearing go bad all the time. That same bearing is in all Cup Cars and GT3s in addition to the Turbos. for the street cars it tends to wear out faster on the turbos, and you hear about it more often on them than GT3s, probably because of the difference in power levels. But it is a known weak point of the gearbox, and thus why the guy at Gbox called it the "typical thrust bearing" failure."
It's just strange as I've never heard anyone on here have it go, or on 911uk or on the porscheclubgb website. What were the symptoms that let you know it had gone?When trying to identify the problem I trawled up lots of info and saved it, here are just a couple of quotes:
"I then figured I could try to email a US-based company called G Box, that specialises in rebuilding Porsche gearboxes.
Got an answer within 30 minutes.
"This is a classic pinion bearing, thrust bearing problem. The part number is
999-052-164-00"
And
"Those of us in the gearbox business see that bearing go bad all the time. That same bearing is in all Cup Cars and GT3s in addition to the Turbos. for the street cars it tends to wear out faster on the turbos, and you hear about it more often on them than GT3s, probably because of the difference in power levels. But it is a known weak point of the gearbox, and thus why the guy at Gbox called it the "typical thrust bearing" failure."
Another thing about my gearbox that was discovered, once it was opening, was that not all bearings were OEM. A botched attempt at repair must have been done in the past. Apparently, it's very difficult to extract some of the outer bearing shells - you need a jeffing big press - and this explain why one bearing was 'mix and match'; i.e. had a different make of outer shell to the race and inner.
Charles22 said:
Ive had a 996T for 11yrs and done nearly 90,000 miles, its a great car. I might have been lucky but my bills have been nothing like some of those quoted, probably well less than £1000 on average a year.
I always have a chuckle when I watch this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJemsVMhEhs
Thats top notch. Here's to another 90,000 trouble free motoring. I always have a chuckle when I watch this vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJemsVMhEhs
Who services yours? I only ask as there are lots of even low mileage turbos out there where marque dealers buy with view to selling for a profit only to get a £10k refresh bill on something like a pair of new turbos with new oil lines etc! Depends generally on if the cars been driven around in salt etc, rusts the hell out of the turbos! You get bills for turbos, clutch and rads at the same time and its a shocker. I do know of a few turbos past 300,000 to 400,000 miles on original engine
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turbo-forum/662617...
I have owned mine for over 6 years now and it has averaged £1800 per annum for everything (including insurance and tax) bar fuel. I use a specialist for all of the work...been skewed recently by a clutch (£1000) and brake lines, discs, pads (app £600 i think) etc by i have zero complaints about the running costs...i guess i was just one of the lucky ones.
Location and age helps the insurance as i was only paying £160 a year up until recently.
Location and age helps the insurance as i was only paying £160 a year up until recently.
pmr01 said:
I have owned mine for over 6 years now and it has averaged £1800 per annum for everything (including insurance and tax) bar fuel. I use a specialist for all of the work...been skewed recently by a clutch (£1000) and brake lines, discs, pads (app £600 i think) etc by i have zero complaints about the running costs...i guess i was just one of the lucky ones.
Location and age helps the insurance as i was only paying £160 a year up until recently.
1600 ex insurance is more meaningful than 1800 incl then Location and age helps the insurance as i was only paying £160 a year up until recently.
probably cheaper tax rate tooI have had mine around nearly 2 years now it had 90k miles on it a was a Cat D but had loads of service history a big folder of invoices etc including a letter off the guy who bumped it about 7 years ago and a list of all porsche dealer parts that were used. Tbh I bought it unseen at £20k it was in silver and tiptronic not the best combination in my opinion. As soon as I had it delivered I bought a new titanium exhaust and had Wayne Schofield map it it's now near 500bhp and flies. I then had it wrapped and new leather interior plus lots of trim either carbon dipped or actual carbon. I've put 4 new tyres on it and front GT3 6 pot brakes. I've also had the paddles fitted to the steering wheel. The only problem I have had is the ABS light came on which was a new front left sensor at £90 plus the engine light comes on now and again cos of the exhaust. I bought a code reader the car has never been over revved being a tiptronic helps there obviously and I bought a Bluetooth ecu adapter that I leave plugged in with an app so if the engine management light comes on I just reset it with my phone. Everything works it drives great sounds great I love it. Not as much fun as the GT3 but far better every day car. I've posted pics of the wrap on here before and took a bit of stick but like I say I like the changes I have made I didn't want a plain silver black interior car and at the end of the day I am very happy with the car that's all that matters eh! 1st pic was the original car just arrived at mine.
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/YjDvmmXo[/url]
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/YjDvmmXo[/url]Kevin-sz0nv said:
Not as much fun as the GT3 but far better every day car.
I do not regret selling my 996 turbo and changing to a GT3. The GT3 very much turns the experience up to eleven, to use a Spinal Tap analogy, but despite all of that, there is a felling, a quality, of the turbo experience that I will always miss. It feels daft to say it, but my turbo felt luxurious, like a far more expensive car (it had full leather interior) whilst at the same time being very, very quick and unflappable; a GT in the wider automotive, Gran Turismo sense.Kevin-sz0nv said:
I've posted pics of the wrap on here before and took a bit of stick but like I say I like the changes I have made I didn't want a plain silver black interior car and at the end of the day I am very happy with the car that's all that matters eh!
Now you mention it, I do remember your car! TBH buying a car as a keeper, as I'm guessing you have in this case, it's irrelevant what other people think. You will run it pretty much forever, so might as well have the car as you want it.Digga said:
ot something that'd cropped up on my rebuild either FWIW. Closest part number would be; 99905209800 Angular Contact Bearing (Input Shaft).
Another thing about my gearbox that was discovered, once it was opening, was that not all bearings were OEM. A botched attempt at repair must have been done in the past. Apparently, it's very difficult to extract some of the outer bearing shells - you need a jeffing big press - and this explain why one bearing was 'mix and match'; i.e. had a different make of outer shell to the race and inner.
Not sure about the quoted p.no - maybe that was given incorrectly, it was someone's recollection after all - but what failed in my car was the same bearing, a "pinion shaft bearing" 99730229300 / 99905216400 "four point bearing with flange pinion shaft 40x82x18" and I also replaced it's brother on the other shaft, 99905209400 "four point bearing with flange Input shaft 30x62x16 " Or the other way round TBH - I know what I bought but did not record which of the two actually failed.Another thing about my gearbox that was discovered, once it was opening, was that not all bearings were OEM. A botched attempt at repair must have been done in the past. Apparently, it's very difficult to extract some of the outer bearing shells - you need a jeffing big press - and this explain why one bearing was 'mix and match'; i.e. had a different make of outer shell to the race and inner.
Mechanic had presses did not report any issues but diff bearings were something else altogether, there are spacers to get the right backlash, but to try them out, you need to destroy the bearing each time... so upon discovering that the new bearings were tight he had 0.03 (from memory) of the bearing outer race surface ground.
Edited by 996TT02 on Tuesday 16th January 20:56
chriscoates81 said:
What were the symptoms that let you know it had gone?
It sounded just like a rear wheelbearing had failed in a sector of the race - not a continuous whine but thrum, thrum, thrum. The one thing that indicated that it was not a wheelbearing was that the frequency of the thrumming was not equal to 1 per wheel revolution but (from memory) around 3x wheel revolutions.Beyond that, it was a question of researching, asking lots of questions, then having the gearbox removed and taken apart on the basis of a conviction that the particular bearing in question had failed - and it had. Thankfully (in a way!).
I do think if you are lucky and maybe run one from new, if you are careful, then the costs are not dreadful. If you like preventative maintenance and don't like the idea that bits are not really A1 then running one of these is expensive. Realistically, mine has cost me ~£3K a year to service and maintain, at least. I've had it 3 years and only drive 5K a year. I am worried about the replacement turbos that I need to budget for which will come to circa £6K.
Ken told me to budget £4K a year on 8K miles. My car is in good condition; '04; and has 78K miles and it's garaged and used carefully. They are complicated cars and have so much to maintain / can fail. Gearboxes, front diff, top mounts, heat shields, rads, turbos + gubbins, manifolds and exhausts, brake pipes, hoses etc.I love mine, though, and very seriously there are few cars I'd really like a great deal more at any price - and none at my level. A decent '6 GT3 RS or Carrera GT (holy grail) I'd prefer. Other cars - well I'd just as likely get into the 996, an old friend I know and love.
Ken told me to budget £4K a year on 8K miles. My car is in good condition; '04; and has 78K miles and it's garaged and used carefully. They are complicated cars and have so much to maintain / can fail. Gearboxes, front diff, top mounts, heat shields, rads, turbos + gubbins, manifolds and exhausts, brake pipes, hoses etc.I love mine, though, and very seriously there are few cars I'd really like a great deal more at any price - and none at my level. A decent '6 GT3 RS or Carrera GT (holy grail) I'd prefer. Other cars - well I'd just as likely get into the 996, an old friend I know and love.
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