996 GT3, 997 GT3, Cayman GT4

[BertBert]

I'm thinking of a change... My budget can probably cover a 996 GT3, a 997GT3 or a GT4. I'm looking for a sharp fun road car, occasional track. I previously had a 996GT3 RS. I'd go straight back there if I had the budget.

Which of the above offers the best road driving experience and what else should I be thinking of?

Cheers
Bert

[Porsche911R]

BertBert said:

Which Porsche offers the best road driving experience
Cheers
Bert

Cayman R
997.2 GTS

If the money allows 997.2 GT3 with short final drive.

one of those 3 imo.

[Koln-RS]

GT4 - but try one first

[LaSource]

996 GT3 if you prefer a unique raw drive more Sunday/Track than frequent driving (flip side a tad aggressive for the road)
997 GT3 if you want more of a road car that can be used for track driving too (a very useable special 911)
GT4 if you feel a bit nervous and want a car that is easiest to drive of the three but still has a bit of specialness / are not bothered about the 911 experience / prefer mid engined balance

For me, I'd go in the order above (996 top, then 997 then GT4), but everyone is different.

[isaldiri]

It depends how much tweaking you're willing to do as well I think. Lightly modded (dsc), the 997 gt3 will be much closer to the gt4 in road comfort and imo offers a much better driving experience. The 6gt3 will be the more old school driving experience but might need some more major suspension adjustment to be as good on the road. Both will be at any rate for me much better cars to drive than the gt4 (or any 9X1 car actually).

[Upnorthgt3]

I’ve gone along that path to a GT4 and I wouldn’t swap back.

The ONLY thing I miss from the 3’s is the last 500rpm, but the rest of the package makes up for it (for me at least).

Remember the 4 was built to a budget whereas the others perhaps less so, but ride quality, handling and point to point, it’s an excellent car

[boxsey]

I'll be interested to see what you decide because I posed a similar question to myself...996GT3 or GT4. I have always loved the 6GT3 (particularly the mk1 clubsport) but I decided that it could be a long frustrating search with no guarantees of success. Owners are just hanging on to the very good ones (and quite rightly so in my opinion). The GT4 just made more sense..so that's what I bought.

[Porsche911R]

LaSource said:

996 GT3 if you prefer a unique raw drive more Sunday/Track than frequent driving (flip side a tad aggressive for the road)
997 GT3 if you want more of a road car that can be used for track driving too (a very useable special 911)
GT4 if you feel a bit nervous and want a car that is easiest to drive of the three but still has a bit of specialness / are not bothered about the 911 experience / prefer mid engined balance

For me, I'd go in the order above (996 top, then 997 then GT4), but everyone is different.

911's are not hard to drive, just different, I never get the 911 is hard to drive thing.
Mid engine cars have always been the hardest cars to drive fastest.

[TDT]

Your main emphasis is road use with occasional track... based on that I think you’re better served with one of the newer cars that have a broader operating window...

So 997 GT3, or GT4..... also think about the 981 Spyder if your trackwork will be just fun and very occasional. Smaller contact patch on the Spyder and affinity for rear end adjustabilty with the throttle make it a great road machine. Bit different from the locked down GT ride of the GT3 or GT4.

As mentioned a manual 997 GTS would be nice also.

Edited by TDT on Wednesday 20th June 22:33

[Steve Rance]

Porsche911R said:

911's are not hard to drive, just different, I never get the 911 is hard to drive thing.
Mid engine cars have always been the hardest cars to drive fastest.

All of the professional drivers that I know take a different view. And so do I

[LaSource]

Porsche911R said:

911's are not hard to drive, just different, I never get the 911 is hard to drive thing.
Mid engine cars have always been the hardest cars to drive fastest.

I’ve had all three. I could (as an amateur tracker) hit my fastest lap in the GT4 on my first outing at each new circuit in my third session once the tyres had settled down.

Hard to drive is perhaps misleading - 911s are not hard to drive. However, to drive near the limit, the GT4 you can get there a lot quicker than you can in a GT3.

Once you can maximise a GT3 (which takes longer), you can probably interchange into each car fairly easily. Not sure it works the same way the other way round.

That is not to say the GT4 is a bad car, on the contrary it is probably the ‘best’ car of the three. Mid engined balance, great chassis, suspension, composure, predictable, etc. It’s just all these things work so well that it reduces the challenge and hence reward.

....oh, and that electric steering. Brrrr. Does reduce connectivity and feedback on circuit. It’s fine on the road.

Edited by LaSource on Thursday 21st June 00:32

[Steve Rance]

All cars in your list are very good and have their merets. The GT4 is a more practical option and an excellent daily. You won’t need to bend it to your will, last half a second will be tough to find but and will rely on smoothness. The 911 will need more understanding and a greater skill set to find the last 2 seconds. Because of that it will be more rewarding to some and more daunting to others.

From what you said about your 996RS I’d buy a 996GT3. With a few relatively inexpensive mods you will have something very close dynamically for half the money. It’s probably the best ‘special driving experience’ option. The next being the 997.

To be honest, a 996 on decent modern dampers is a wonderful thing and not that far behind the other two in practically

Good luck. Let us know what you decide to do!

[CSLmarson]

Hi there I thought id throw my hat in the ring here,
im new to all this being a bmw man all my life and having just sold my M3 CSL I decided a GT car was for me,
having owned a 996 C4S in the past I know not a GT car" I loved the size and feel of the car but it does feel dated and the interior is a bit woolly,
The 997 GT3 is a wonderful thing and I have always dreamt of owning one they just look right but when it came to the time for me to put my hard earned down I felt it was a lot of money for a much older car that will be requiring suspension refreshes ect ect as they are getting on 10 years old now.
I have ended up getting into a GT4, I have only had it 2 weeks and it feels very tight and focused once you get the revs up there the engine sings, I know not to the point of a GT engine but the sports exhaust with a tight gear, 918 full carbon seats and club sport package its a very nice place to be
modern tec inside to keep you entertained its a really nice package,
my first track eve is tonight so lets see how it behaves compared to my front engine rear drive past but im very happy with my decision so far.

cheers

[Porsche911R]

LaSource said:

Porsche911R said:

911's are not hard to drive, just different, I never get the 911 is hard to drive thing.
Mid engine cars have always been the hardest cars to drive fastest.

I’ve had all three. I could (as an amateur tracker) hit my fastest lap in the GT4 on my first outing at each new circuit in my third session once the tyres had settled down.

Hard to drive is perhaps misleading - 911s are not hard to drive. However, to drive near the limit, the GT4 you can get there a lot quicker than you can in a GT3.

Once you can maximise a GT3 (which takes longer), you can probably interchange into each car fairly easily. Not sure it works the same way the other way round.

That is not to say the GT4 is a bad car, on the contrary it is probably the ‘best’ car of the three. Mid engined balance, great chassis, suspension, composure, predictable, etc. It’s just all these things work so well that it reduces the challenge and hence reward.

....oh, and that electric steering. Brrrr. Does reduce connectivity and feedback on circuit. It’s fine on the road.

As I say just different, I find 911 drivers over brake a mid engine car into the bends, I own rear engine, mid and front and drive all most days , but learnt how to really drive fast in mid engine cars, imo they are the hardest to drive the fastest closest to the limit or over it in some cases.
The switch from mid to rear is easier imo. you can drive a GT4 like a GT3 if you wish(you will be slow but you can drive it the same), you cannot drive a GT3 like a GT4 so you have to change or understeer off at the 1st bend.

911 owners seem to always say "hard to drive" then cannot move to other layouts very well.... or do but then are not driving fast enough so say it's easy ! as driving a mid engine car at 95% it is fairly easy I guess.

I agree with EPS, I hate it, in the new 991.2 GT3 though it's gob smaking good, you can feel the road surface change which is a 1st in EPS to a point EPS on the new GT range is a non issue.

I can drive my GT3 far closer or over the limit easier than the GT4 I had, GT3's are very progressive and very throttle adjustable, the GT4 when the grip goes you have to be far faster and it's less progressive. I cannot drift a GT4 very well, it's pretty easy in a GT3 on the throttle with that engine out back. Also out the bends in mid engine you have less traction, where you can lean on a GT3 for grip out the bends and it's very easy to look a hero and power slide it out at will.

As always the skill is into the bends in all cars esp manuals under brakes. the rest of track driving is pretty simple.
I make all my time up on track days into bends in my slower cars over faster cars on track.

While a novice might get to 95% in a GT4 faster than a GT3 a GT4 is harder at 100% imo

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

911's are not hard to drive, just different, I never get the 911 is hard to drive thing.
Mid engine cars have always been the hardest cars to drive fastest.

And yet you've constantly told everyone on here you didn't get on with the 996 GT3 'cos its chassis was blighted with understeer that you "hated", I suspect that indicated to most that you didn't understand the subtle nuances of the 911 platform, and neither were you willing to try and adjust your driving style/technique to suit/get the best from it.

Of course once Porsche sorted that understeer "issue" for you with the GT3, with a longer wheelbase (more stability) and ERWS (less stability to counter the increased stability) you miraculously embraced the whole GT3 concept that you'd previously spent years preaching to all and sundry on here that it was a flawed anachronism (and to quote you verbatim : st) !!!
And whilst you profess to hate EPS and electronics interfering in your enjoyment of driving a car, you embrace that very same electronic trickery when it enables RWS to make the GT3 chassis less prone to understeer and thus appeal to individuals such as yoursef ... funny that.

Mid engined cars are easier to drive than rear engined cars 99.9% of the time. Fact.
Sure, in extremis a mid engined chassis can be trickier to drive (or they were up to the advent of RWS, electronic diffs and the whole gamut of stability controls most manufacturers have designed and implemented to make their mid-engined cars more benign at the limit)

I'm not ashamed to say, that when I met up with a bunch of "enthusiasts" for a hoon around N.Wales this time last year in the Cayman R, I was just a little concerned as to just how outpaced I/it would be :



There's some fairly heavy metal there (in the context of the Cayman R) 430 Scud : 500+ hp, the 996 GT3 was packing a 3.9 ltr 445 hp punch, that's a 991 GTS with what ? 430hp and PDK, and lastly a "Plain Jane" 997 GT3 with a mere 415hp.

I needn't have worried, the CR was NEVER more than 20 seconds behind the pack, and the ONLY time it lost out was when it came to overtaking, the others punching past pretty much anything at will.

Hand on heart, I'm doubtful I'd have been able to pedal a standard Mk1 GT3 (in rude health with decent tyres) as quickly as the CR that day, especially in the wet/damp conditions we encountered.

The Cayman's mid engine chassis is/was about as benign as it gets, so please don't trying kidding me or anyone else on here that a mid-engined car is more difficult to drive quickly across give and take roads, than a 996 GT3, because it isn't. It never was and it never will be.

But ultimately it was the CR's benign chassis that led me to eschew it so quickly. As I've said on many occasions before, it was just too easy and too sanitized to be engaging and really tactile.

Of course if your metric is ultimate A to B speed, it ticks a lot of boxes, but I'd rather go slower and feel like I'm going quickly, and enjoy managing the 911's imperfect weight distribution.
Added to which no Cayman R or GT4 motor will ever sound like/as good as a Mezger... and as for the 4 pot 718 engine/sound, don't make me laugh

[Steve Rance]

Porsche911R said:

As I say just different, I find 911 drivers over brake a mid engine car into the bends, I own rear engine, mid and front and drive all most days , but learnt how to really drive fast in mid engine cars, imo they are the hardest to drive the fastest closest to the limit or over it in some cases.
The switch from mid to rear is easier imo. you can drive a GT4 like a GT3 if you wish(you will be slow but you can drive it the same), you cannot drive a GT3 like a GT4 so you have to change or understeer off at the 1st bend.

911 owners seem to always say "hard to drive" then cannot move to other layouts very well.... or do but then are not driving fast enough so say it's easy ! as driving a mid engine car at 95% it is fairly easy I guess.

I agree with EPS, I hate it, in the new 991.2 GT3 though it's gob smaking good, you can feel the road surface change which is a 1st in EPS to a point EPS on the new GT range is a non issue.

I can drive my GT3 far closer or over the limit easier than the GT4 I had, GT3's are very progressive and very throttle adjustable, the GT4 when the grip goes you have to be far faster and it's less progressive. I cannot drift a GT4 very well, it's pretty easy in a GT3 on the throttle with that engine out back. Also out the bends in mid engine you have less traction, where you can lean on a GT3 for grip out the bends and it's very easy to look a hero and power slide it out at will.

As always the skill is into the bends in all cars esp manuals under brakes. the rest of track driving is pretty simple.
I make all my time up on track days into bends in my slower cars over faster cars on track.

While a novice might get to 95% in a GT4 faster than a GT3 a GT4 is harder at 100% imo

Interesting. So what would you say was the most difficult element of each when driving a rear engined car and driving a mid engined car?

Genuine interest, no trick question.

[ras62]

[redacted]

[Heathrow]

I currently have a 996.2 GT3 and also a GT4 and they are very different beasts. First obvious statement to make is that we are comparing a newish Porsche with a 15 year old Porsche here so some allowance must be made for that.

My experience accords with what LaSource said, although having seen his footwork on YouTube I would caveat that by saying my track driving ability level is (much) lower. That said, as a trackday "intermediate", you can jump in the GT4 and pedal along at a decent lick on track and the car is very confidence inspiring and predictable. The brakes, the suspension and the gearbox are highlights. On the road the GT4 has all the bases covered, comfortable enough as a daily, but as a driver's car for the road it has so much grip it's never troubled and the suspension keeps up with absolutely everything that's thrown at it. It flatters the driver in that respect. It's great for covering long distances in comfort and the engine is really strong but it does not reach the heights of the GT3's Mezger. My suspicion is that I would enjoy the GT4 road driving experience more were it not for the Cup2s. Horses for courses and all that.

The GT3 is more interactive and engaging to drive at its limit and I feel that I'm constantly learning and having to adapt my driving every time I get into the car. For some this might be tiresome, for me it keeps me interested and I feel improves my driving skills. I love the narrowness of the car too, works perfectly for UK roads and the steering is just way more involving that the GT4.

Both are very, very good cars in their own right. I used to own a 996 CSR (the RPM Technik creation) and I would add as a footnote that with similar KW v3 suspension and a full corner weighting and geo set-up, the 996.2 GT3 would probably be absolute perfection.

All IMHO I should add.

[n12maser]

Out of interest is kw V3 the classic choice for making the 996.2 GT3 slightly more (British) road compliant yet still locked down on track?

[BertBert]

Wow, great feedback so far and a lot to take in. No time to do that now, but I'll read over the weekend and respond.

One thing I did do was to have a better look at prices and found both the GT4 and 997 GT3 to be possibly over my budget range. I have wondered for a while how close you could get a 'standard' 996 to be like a GT3 in feel, pointyness and balance (probably not at all worried about outright speed for use on the road).

The Hartech rebuild that 911V have might make a good starting point.

All food for thought and thanks for the brilliant info.

Bert