I love my Porsche... just wish Ford had built it
Discussion
Ok, so clickbait title, but my point is this. Driving to work in my 65k mile Mondeo it occurred to me that it has zero faults, zero rattles and has only ever had a set of pads, discs and tyres on top of its annual service.
My 25k mile Cayman on the other hand currently has several trim rattles (one of which has been there the whole time I've owned the car), an exhaust clamp which has rusted through and is on the verge of splitting, lots of little paint chips (especially inside the wheel arches where the paint seems to practically fall off itself) and corrosion on the jacking points. It has also had, under warranty, some exhaust work, the drivers electric window sorted twice and the horn replaced.
The Mondeo is used in all weathers and leads a hard life with bikes and so on being thrown in and out it all the time. It's washed infrequently and gets driven harder than I suspect it was ever designed to be. The Cayman lives in a nice garage, it washed nearly every time it's out, is warmed up gently and treated with respect.
The exhasut clamp and bolts are a prime example. They have clearly been made from the cheapest steel out there and Porsche tell me it's treated as a wear and tear item. The exhaust clamps on the Mondeo which is out all winter on salty roads are all fine. The wheel nuts on the Cayman are rusty, Mondeo ones aren't, the centre badges on the Cayman wheels are starting to corrode, the Mondeo ones aren't. And it goes on.
My other half has a 911 that's on 15k miles and it has a selection of rattles and rusting exhaust clamps and wheel nuts etc too.
Now I know Ford manufacture cars in huge numbers so should have these things sorted, but Porsche aren't exactly Caterham on the production scale and they are a 'premium brand'. You'd think they could find some half decent stainless steel to make parts from, wouldn't you? As I recently said to the service manager at my local OPC, my Cayman is a brilliant car, just think how good it would be if they had built it better. And i'd have happily paid an extra grand for it if it had been built with some better quality parts.
My 25k mile Cayman on the other hand currently has several trim rattles (one of which has been there the whole time I've owned the car), an exhaust clamp which has rusted through and is on the verge of splitting, lots of little paint chips (especially inside the wheel arches where the paint seems to practically fall off itself) and corrosion on the jacking points. It has also had, under warranty, some exhaust work, the drivers electric window sorted twice and the horn replaced.
The Mondeo is used in all weathers and leads a hard life with bikes and so on being thrown in and out it all the time. It's washed infrequently and gets driven harder than I suspect it was ever designed to be. The Cayman lives in a nice garage, it washed nearly every time it's out, is warmed up gently and treated with respect.
The exhasut clamp and bolts are a prime example. They have clearly been made from the cheapest steel out there and Porsche tell me it's treated as a wear and tear item. The exhaust clamps on the Mondeo which is out all winter on salty roads are all fine. The wheel nuts on the Cayman are rusty, Mondeo ones aren't, the centre badges on the Cayman wheels are starting to corrode, the Mondeo ones aren't. And it goes on.
My other half has a 911 that's on 15k miles and it has a selection of rattles and rusting exhaust clamps and wheel nuts etc too.
Now I know Ford manufacture cars in huge numbers so should have these things sorted, but Porsche aren't exactly Caterham on the production scale and they are a 'premium brand'. You'd think they could find some half decent stainless steel to make parts from, wouldn't you? As I recently said to the service manager at my local OPC, my Cayman is a brilliant car, just think how good it would be if they had built it better. And i'd have happily paid an extra grand for it if it had been built with some better quality parts.
Good point, well made Paul.
I run Audis or BMWs as daily drivers and they do 10 times the mileage of my wife's pampered 997 and require a tenth of the maintenance. I love Porsches but in 50K and 10 years we have had pretty well complete suspension, coolant pipes, tandem pump, air con condensers, driveshaft seals, coil packs, 3 sets of brakes, and exhaust clamps - and plenty more.
I run Audis or BMWs as daily drivers and they do 10 times the mileage of my wife's pampered 997 and require a tenth of the maintenance. I love Porsches but in 50K and 10 years we have had pretty well complete suspension, coolant pipes, tandem pump, air con condensers, driveshaft seals, coil packs, 3 sets of brakes, and exhaust clamps - and plenty more.
Fair point. But no, much as I like the Mustang I'm not sure it can offer the handling delicacy or finesse of my Cayman R. And I suspect the depreciation would be more than just sorting the poor build quality issues on the Cayman.Totally agree with you Paul...I ran a 996 alongside a VW..both the same age , mileage ,driver and roads driven on...over the ten years the 996 needed ..rads,condensers,exhaust clamps,springs,coffin arms,brake & hydraulic pipes and umpteen disc & pads....the VW one set pads and a timing belt! I've banged on for years about material spec used on Porsche cars
Being of poor quality...my 996 and 997 were particularly bad on underneath parts needing replacement because of premature deterioration. I've just bought a five year old 991 ,underneath looks in far better shape than my previous cars at similar milage...maybe Porsche have bucked there ideas as to longevity ......I did however get the exhaust bolts replaced prior to purchase as the nuts had already vaporised! Before changing I considered a GTR , mainly due to the above as Nissan don't have a lot of these problems . In the end the great drive that a Porsche gives won me over again...and I keep hoping Porsche have improved the bad bits...
Being of poor quality...my 996 and 997 were particularly bad on underneath parts needing replacement because of premature deterioration. I've just bought a five year old 991 ,underneath looks in far better shape than my previous cars at similar milage...maybe Porsche have bucked there ideas as to longevity ......I did however get the exhaust bolts replaced prior to purchase as the nuts had already vaporised! Before changing I considered a GTR , mainly due to the above as Nissan don't have a lot of these problems . In the end the great drive that a Porsche gives won me over again...and I keep hoping Porsche have improved the bad bits...
Edited by Polome on Tuesday 23 October 11:05
Don't be too harsh, Porsches aren't great for reliability it is true. But nether are rep-cars in my experience. German cars are poor but the worst I ever had was Vauxhall, in fact I think every car I've owned (present one excepted) has had some kind of issues. Must be the way I drive 'em 
.
Never let that warranty lapse is all I would say...
.Never let that warranty lapse is all I would say...
Schmed said:
Don't be too harsh, Porsches aren't great for reliability it is true. But nether are rep-cars in my experience. German cars are poor but the worst I ever had was Vauxhall, in fact I think every car I've owned (present one excepted) has had some kind of issues. Must be the way I drive 'em .
Never let that warranty lapse is all I would say...
You make an interesting point on reliability. Bore score on certain engines aside, you don't hear many horror stories on major components like engines and gearboxes. It's like the fundamentals on these cars are there or there about, but then it's all just a bit poorly finished. .Never let that warranty lapse is all I would say...
The 991.1 does seem to be holding up a bit better than my 987.2, but a quick look underneath does reveal bolts that are more blobs of rust than anything that would ever come off with a socket set. It's just a bit disappointing to be honest. And seems totally unnecessary.
Agreed. I purchased a 3 year old Focus with 18,000 miles on it. Ran it for 7 years, up to 80,000 miles. It had the air-con re-gassed once, and the alternator replaced. I changed the oil, filters, plugs, brakes etc occasionally. Every mile it did was a 'hard' mile, she did loads of towing/carrying and never let me down. Never even needed a new battery.
The 997 on the other hand... purchased at 37,000 miles and now on about 78,000. Rads, condensers, springs, coffin arms, top mounts, numerous exhaust clamps, air-con pipes, air-con compressor, numerous sensors and switches, water-pump, battery. I love the car dearly but there is absolutely no way you can call it a 'quality product' from a longevity point of view. I only put up with its money-pit tendencies because it's a 911!
Edited to add, the 997 is now on its third tandem pump (due to corrosion).
The 997 on the other hand... purchased at 37,000 miles and now on about 78,000. Rads, condensers, springs, coffin arms, top mounts, numerous exhaust clamps, air-con pipes, air-con compressor, numerous sensors and switches, water-pump, battery. I love the car dearly but there is absolutely no way you can call it a 'quality product' from a longevity point of view. I only put up with its money-pit tendencies because it's a 911!
Edited to add, the 997 is now on its third tandem pump (due to corrosion).
Interesting reading, as I have used my 997.1 turbo as my daily driver for the last 2.5 years and 33,000 miles odd. Snow, rain, sleet, its left on the drive and used as my daily hack. With having a young family I only ever get to wash it once a month if that, and thats just a quick once over. Its got 2 childs seats in the back and the kids climb all over the inside etc when im doing the school run in it.
For the first 2 years and 30,000 miles the only cost I had outside of a set of tyres, MOT & a minor service (which you would have on any car) was a couple of engine sensors which went (£250). So £ per mile I didnt think that was too bad.
Year 3 has been a bit more expensive in that this year ive had clutch master cylinder, slave cylinder & accumulator (£600), rear brake pads (£???) and radiator housings (£300). When I had the car on the ramp earlier in the year, the garage commented that the underside looked better than some 30,000 mile 911`s they see and said that it was probably because I use the car rather than it being a weekend car.
If im very critical, the only part of the car which is showing signs of its daily use are the alloys, which desperately need a refurb now - but ive been quoted at £60 a wheel its hardly going to break the bank, and there are more stone chips on the bonnet than when I got the car.
A lot of it is luck of the draw however as the owner previous before me did have things such as the starter motor, rads / condensers replaced and had a few hefty bills which I managed to avoid.
For the first 2 years and 30,000 miles the only cost I had outside of a set of tyres, MOT & a minor service (which you would have on any car) was a couple of engine sensors which went (£250). So £ per mile I didnt think that was too bad.
Year 3 has been a bit more expensive in that this year ive had clutch master cylinder, slave cylinder & accumulator (£600), rear brake pads (£???) and radiator housings (£300). When I had the car on the ramp earlier in the year, the garage commented that the underside looked better than some 30,000 mile 911`s they see and said that it was probably because I use the car rather than it being a weekend car.
If im very critical, the only part of the car which is showing signs of its daily use are the alloys, which desperately need a refurb now - but ive been quoted at £60 a wheel its hardly going to break the bank, and there are more stone chips on the bonnet than when I got the car.
A lot of it is luck of the draw however as the owner previous before me did have things such as the starter motor, rads / condensers replaced and had a few hefty bills which I managed to avoid.
Ahbefive said:
GT03ROB said:
I've got 3 of the bloody things Paul.... I get totally where you are coming from.
Is yours an orange one with the same numberplate as your username? If so I saw you on the M40 on Sunday evening after thrashing round Rockingham. Looks lovely.I agree to a point, but I can't help thinking that a lot of the usual Porsche issues are compounded by the the fact that mostly they are a second car and do spend a fair bit time not being used.
My old 911 (997) was 9 years old when I sold it and had covered just under 50k miles. That's less than 5k per year. It was garaged during my ownership, but how much of it's life had it spent outside and not being used?
Ignoring the miles that an everyday car will inevitably accrue, clearly a car being used frequently will benefit from less water and damp just getting into the cars bodywork and components and I'm sure would reduce the number of issues that typically need to be addressed by Porsche and other second car owners.
My old 911 (997) was 9 years old when I sold it and had covered just under 50k miles. That's less than 5k per year. It was garaged during my ownership, but how much of it's life had it spent outside and not being used?
Ignoring the miles that an everyday car will inevitably accrue, clearly a car being used frequently will benefit from less water and damp just getting into the cars bodywork and components and I'm sure would reduce the number of issues that typically need to be addressed by Porsche and other second car owners.
Discombobulate said:
They are lovely cars but the rest of the industry has been raising the bar while Porsche seems to be lowering it. I no longer regard Porsche as top quality product. And I must have had nearly 20 over the years.
Pretty much sums it up. Once they were a nicely engineered, hand built marvel, now they’re little more than a cleverly engineered Audi (or dare I say, VW ?)But let’s be honest, they’ve never been perfect, the early cars were rust buckets, the factory made a big thing about addressing that issue with zinc coating of the shells (but they didn’t tell us that big areas of it were subsequently linished off during the hand finishing stages that followed)
The 964 engines rapidly gained a reputation for doing great impersonations of the Amoco Cadiz, and let’s not mention the dual mass flywheels and tin worm slowly removing the front and rear screen pillars.
Feeling smug because you’re a 993 owner ? Let’s talk door check straps, spontaneously combusting engine wiring looms, dodgy plastic cam covers, leaking crankcase through bolts and rotting rear bumper mounts/chassis mounting points.
Are the modern, watercooled cars better ? Definitely not. I remember proudly washing my first Gen 1 997 GT3, then realising there were no heat shields for the exhaust silencers, and that the paint on the inside of the Italian sourced rear wheels was almost non-existent (and the paint on the faces didn’t really bear close scrutiny either)
Audi/VAG and its bean counters have a lot to answer for ....
As for the 991 being better, there’s a lot of nasty pressed steel stuff where there used to be nicely cast/forged aluminium components underneath these days.
And as for the engineering of the modern cars, need to change the air filter element on a 991 Turbo ? You’ll need to remove the rear bumper and lights to access it ...
GT03ROB said:
Ahbefive said:
GT03ROB said:
I've got 3 of the bloody things Paul.... I get totally where you are coming from.
Is yours an orange one with the same numberplate as your username? If so I saw you on the M40 on Sunday evening after thrashing round Rockingham. Looks lovely.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff