Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

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Discussion

ettore

2,575 posts

197 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
The responses to this thread are becoming increasingly - in a positive way- more detailed and distracting.

With respect though, the OP appears to be suffering a crisis of confidence. Part of this is undoubtedly driven by the social mores and practicality of inner London. I work in central London and can easily understand the frustration of the short term practicalities - my next daily will probably also be electric and I love my bicycle too. He is also distracted by three of his wagons currently being ‘hors de combat’ whilst generating bills - again, not uncommon.

But...

Cars ain’t going. ICE cars ain’t going soon either - as any trip 30+ miles from the M25 will make obvious.

Classic cars ain’t going - I still note plenty of horses ing about and there are now more steam engines active in the UK than any time in living memory.

Our car culture is as strong as anywhere in the world and us certainly not driven by the North London Tesla classes.

Day to day motoring is undergoing a fabulous and profound transformation - driving interesting and intriguing cars will continue.

I suggest the OP:

1] Takes himself to the Goodwood Revival this weekend to restore his automotive soul.

2) stops worrying about what others think.

3) cuts his Porker content to 1/2 actual runners

4) has faith and re-learns the enjoyment of cars without worrying about ‘making’ money

5) actually tries a good E Type to understand how much better they are than a 356 (have had both!)

Xx

aeropilot

18,591 posts

172 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
964Cup said:
The 964 was pretty well the first mainstream Porsche to use a lot of electronics (I imagine the 928 may well be worse, I've not had one), and in these now 26+-year-old cars the multiple ECUs and endlessly bodged-about electrical systems almost constantly have some kind of gremlin - viz for instance this summer's main drama with the 964 cab where the climate control unit, which also runs the oil cooler fan (obviously...) and auxiliary engine fan (ditto...) has a small fan attached to the back of it that draws in cabin air as part of the feedback loop for the aircon. This fan has permanent power, because it's supposed to keep running for a short while after you turn the car off, in case you turn it on again and immediately want the correct cabin temperature. Vital, I'm sure you agree. Of course, after 26 years, the transistor that eventually turns this fan off can fail. When it does, the fan runs continuously, drawing about 1A, and drains your battery. To fix it, you either buy a vastly expensive used unit (that may well have the same fault) or send it off to one of three specialists worldwide who can fix it. Without a CCU you run all sorts of risks of overheating in very hot weather. So, of course, in the midst of the heatwave my CCU exhibited these symptoms, meaning a) the car kindly surprised me by not starting when I needed it and b) I had to both buy a temporary replacement unit and get my original repaired. Joy. Now the enormous (given how little it actually does) ECU unit that runs the laughably basic on-board computer has decided to run at 90 degrees C, so I have another exciting electronic adventure ahead of me.
Which is why I'd keep the 356, as long term, the more simple the car (especially in terms of electrics and preferably a car that is pre-ECU era) the longer you are going to be able to enjoy it.
Failing that, chop all 3 in for a nice, almost stock, early 70's era 911.


Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
It seems that the OP is also time-challenged in which case a 356 / GT3 Touring may be the duo which ticks the classic ownership & the "just get in & drive" boxes.

The GT3 Touring strikes me as the "grown-up's" choice - relatively unassuming yet packs the punch of the track-focussed versions.


964Cup

Original Poster:

693 posts

182 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
More news in The Times this morning about the proposed Air Pollution Bill, which may include a ban on new petrol car sales by 2030. The bill is likely to have the same provisions as the present French system, which in addition to permanent (and more stringent than UK) ULEZs in cities, provides for county-wide restrictions on driving depending on vehicle emissions. Unlike the French, if this goes into law, we'll use it, and you can bet that the bill will make no distinction between a 1992 911 RS that's been fastidiously maintained and is used for a couple of thousand miles a year and someone's bangernomics 1992 Vauxhall Astra runabout with worn valve guides and broken piston rings which is ragged to within an inch of its life every day.

Air quality is shaping up (and I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong) as the next moral panic once we're done with Brexit, are bored with gender issues, and are tired of hearing about climate change. The government will pay lipservice to both the destruction of jobs in the garage and restoration trades, and to the destruction of value (and restriction of freedom) in the classic car owners' world, but at the end of the day "think of the children" will be the unstoppable sledgehammer.

It's not that I'm trying to make money on these cars (don't make me laugh). It's that I'm trying not to lose money hand over fist on a hobby. I was/am hoping that they'll hold their value - unlike modern sportscars - so that I only lose what I spend on maintenance and use costs. Since I can readily foresee a situation in 10 years' time where you simply aren't permitted to use a car emitting more than 200g/km (or less), or without a cat, or without a relevant Euro certification (this is the French model), I'm having a definite crisis of confidence. It makes me very reluctant to drop another six-figure sum on an ICE Porsche with a high CO2 number.

You might say I live in a London bubble, but that's where policy is made, and the Greta Thunbergs of the world are shouting loudly and being listened to. Car enthusiasts are readily dismissed as bobble hats and macho wkers, and the car industry so thoroughly blotted its copy-book with Dieselgate that no-one will listen to them (the sainted Elon aside, perhaps) for at least a decade. Remember that we may soon have the party of Abbott and Thornberry, McDonnell and Corbyn in power. How likely is that shower to take a balanced view, pay any attention to individual liberty or care about wealth destruction? Imagine the sympathy I'd receive from McDonnell if I complained about his policies rendering my three Porsches worthless. He'd get a semi. just thinking about it.

aeropilot

18,591 posts

172 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
964Cup said:
It makes me very reluctant to drop another six-figure sum on an ICE Porsche with a high CO2 number.
yes

As I said, keep the 356 (or chop all 3 in for an early 911) along with a white-goods, ULEZ friendly daily driver shopping trolley.

Sorted.


Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
The concern in the air pollution debate is that precious little attention is being drawn to the proportion of the problem attributable to each source.

Coal burning power stations (principally in China), commercial aviation, rail industry, factories, domestic open fires, incinerators in recycling centres, agricultural burn-off, the marine industry, generators in commercial premises etc - there needs to be a breakdown of each source/sector's contribution to the problem & the costs spread appropriately.

The issue has been politicised and it's easy to demonise specific groups/sectors.
Emotive politics has long been the modus operandi of the environmental debate.

Decision making needs to be informed by reliable evidence & impartial spreading of the financial burden.

A 2030 implementation date for such a change may heavily impact the less well-off who are dependent on cheap cars - there could be a backlash outside the London bubble.

aeropilot

18,591 posts

172 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Penguinracer said:
Decision making needs to be informed by reliable evidence & impartial spreading of the financial burden.
laugh


Discombobulate

3,540 posts

131 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Penguinracer said:
The concern in the air pollution debate is that precious little attention is being drawn to the proportion of the problem attributable to each source.

Coal burning power stations (principally in China), commercial aviation, rail industry, factories, domestic open fires, incinerators in recycling centres, agricultural burn-off, the marine industry, generators in commercial premises etc - there needs to be a breakdown of each source/sector's contribution to the problem & the costs spread appropriately.

The issue has been politicised and it's easy to demonise specific groups/sectors.
Emotive politics has long been the modus operandi of the environmental debate.

Decision making needs to be informed by reliable evidence & impartial spreading of the financial burden.

A 2030 implementation date for such a change may heavily impact the less well-off who are dependent on cheap cars - there could be a backlash outside the London bubble.
Transportation is the biggest contributor to global CO2 production https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-trans... but switching to electric is only going to shift much of the CO2 to the electricity sector (efficiencies aside). And electric planes (2% global CO2) and ships (3% CO2) present a challenge...

cmoose

44,923 posts

174 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
I'm generally fairly pessimistic.

However, I'm not totally convinced there will be a huge drive to ban things beyond the sale on new combustion cars. Once all new cars have clean local emissions, the turn over of the installed base takes care of the rest. OK, there's some lag. But you don't need every car on the road to be perfect to have good local air quality. 10 years after a ban on combustion car sales and very likely enough cars on the road will have no local emissions to render banning anything redundant.

Of course, logic doesn't automatically prevail. But there isn't much rational point in extended the ban on petrol cars beyond Euro 4. In fact, pre Euro 4 indirect injection catalysed petrol engines are the best combustion engines re local emissions. They're really no a problem at all for air quality.

Of course, it's a bit complicated given newer direct injection but pre-WLTP / particulate filtered are a bit of a problem re particulates. Will be interesting to see how it all shakes out, but as mentioned above, it won't be easy on the less well off to instigate wide ranging bans on existing vehicles, so achieving desired outcomes via stipulations on new car sales is probably the path of least political resistance, I would think. Or at least hope!

That said, now is the time to use and enjoy these cars. If emissions regs don't get us, something like compulsory retrofitted black boxes might. And if it turns out to all have been a false alram and it's still pretty easy to drive a combustion Porsche in 20 years, well, you'll still have enjoyed all those drives!

aeropilot

18,591 posts

172 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Discombobulate said:
Transportation is the biggest contributor to global CO2 production https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-trans... but switching to electric is only going to shift much of the CO2 to the electricity sector (efficiencies aside). And electric planes (2% global CO2) and ships (3% CO2) present a challenge...
Ships can (and probably will have to) go back to wind power, to supplement fossil fuel power, and it is being looked at.




Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
There are some breakdowns on the sources here:

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse...

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/daviz/chan...

https://www.iea.org/statistics/co2emissions/

It seems that Industry & Energy Production account for the vast majority of CO2 emissions, which are all of the problem obviously as there are other greenhouse gases such as methane to consider.

964Cup

Original Poster:

693 posts

182 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Let's not get climate change and greenhouse gas emissions mixed up with the air quality campaign. The issue currently exercising people is dirty air near schools; the majority of that is particulates and NOx from vehicle exhausts (and brake/tyre dust, but that's being ignored by most). The point is that it's easy for virtue-signallers and politicians to demonise ICE cars as the culprit; it suits Britain's cultures of envy and milk-monitoring. So you can be sure there'll be lots of finger-pointing outside schools, and people being dobbed-in for driving their kids around, and for idling when they shouldn't be.

The general public not being very bright, there will be an automatic assumption that expensive, noisy sportscars produce more child-murdering pollution, and it's a chance to stick one to people who have things other people can't afford - a favourite British pastime. Islington Council - home to the sainted Corbyn's constituency - tried this on a while ago: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/petrol-and-... It will doubtless be back, with the blessing of our current self-promoting leftist Mayor, as an extension to the ULEZ.

Obviously Uber-vermin, ancient diesel taxis and Routemasters will all be exempt, but public transport is suffused with a (blue-grey, smelly) haze of ineluctable virtue.

I don't give a monkey's about driving in Islington (except that my cars are presently stored in the borough), but this is the thin end of the wedge. The problem of course being that there is no one left to act reasonably or to represent the views of all of the people, in our post-Brexit polarised society which appears to be run (and opposed) exclusively by maniacs and idiots.

Not that I'm having a grumpy start to the day or anything.

Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
It's the black cabs & buses exemption which most annoys me.

The state should lead from the front, setting the example with the entire bus fleet being zero-emissions & that also being the price of membership of the protected monopoly which is the black cab trade.

I'm all for improved air quality but the hypocrisy of the state not complying with its own standards is indefensible.

DJMC

2,499 posts

48 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
I escaped London many years ago but even living in the country I still have to commute using A roads and motorways. I'm getting more and more dismayed at the few opportunities to drive freely without being stuck in traffic or watched by speed cameras.

What's the point in having a performance car if all I can do is pootle around in it. It looks great but that makes it worse that it can't often go how it looks it should.

I've been considering selling and buying a diesel hatch or similar and just giving up being a car enthusiast, then I wouldn't be so disappointed most of the time.




964Cup

Original Poster:

693 posts

182 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
What I'm finding hard to understand is that Ferrari et al are still doing this kind of thing: https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-ferrari/ferrar... . I can see them selling in the US and in the Middle East, I suppose. But in emissions-conscious, camera-heavy Europe? They'll sell every one they choose to make available.

To whom? Is the market really people to whom £300k is relative chump change? I suppose if they were £30k I'd have one in a heartbeat (except that it's a Ferrari) and not care if it was worthless in three years' time, and there's no shortage of people ten times wealthier than me. Nonetheless I find it slightly amazing that we're still allowed to buy cars like that, and don't expect that freedom to last.

I also can't imagine what I'd do with an 800hp road car. Even in my RS I can pin the throttle from time to time; it's rapidly in licence-losing territory, but not in the world of go-directly-to-jail-do-not-pass-go-front-page-of-the-Daily-Mail. The joy of the 356 (when it works) is that I can pin the throttle, enjoy the noise, feel like I'm going quite quickly, then look down and realise that I might be in danger of getting three points if I'm really unlucky. Most of the time, not even that, long may 60mph limits on B-roads last...



Edited by 964Cup on Monday 9th September 17:43

Cheib

16,779 posts

120 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
Link is broken OP! Guessing you mean the F8 Spyder ? I think there are a lot of people that don’t think like you and yes no US President is going to ban ICE any time soon...or Middle Eastern Ruler/Dictator/King/President.

If I was you I would definitely trim my garage....although I think a big problem is living in London. It’s not the place to live if you enjoy driving cars....I remember driving my E46 M3 when it was new for a month in Europe back in 2003...mostly in the Alps. I’d owned it for about 18 months at that point. I sold it a month after getting home as it felt totally pointless in London.

It’s hard to love cars if they’re a pain in the arse which yours seem to be at the moment and you can’t enjoy them. It’s not really my thing but I have a couple of mates with 356’s who go off and do owners events every year...there’s a big one in Europe every year. I think it was Lake Lucern this year. Get things like that in the diary as something to look forward to and focus on! For me with my GT3 I am doing a few days of driving tuition which I am really enjoying....aim to do track days in the future but for now I am doing a day a month trying to get my abilities a but closer to the cars and really enjoying it.

braddo

6,389 posts

133 months

Monday 9th September
quotequote all
It's an interesting thread, leading into how each person makes different compromises to balance the competing aspects of life. Some of the dilemmas are familiar to me (on a much more modest scale), e.g. living in London versus the joy of driving; having an older/cooler car but which is reliable and useable, and wife-friendly(!); tactile driving experience vs refinement for long distances and nice trips.

One of my compromises is that I want to live in central-ish London and so to enjoy some spirited driving, it means early morning drives on weekends to the countryside (and a few track days). That is a compromise I'm happy to make but it's clearly not for everyone.

For the OP, perhaps a priority is to get an interim useable car to enjoy some driving until your three get finalised (or sold) to your satisfaction - something from 2007-2010 like a 997 GTS/GT3 or Lotus Evora? These cars are ULEZ compliant and modern while being just before cars get more digital and insulated.

Have you heard about the electric aircon for older cars (911 focussed but they have done an E-type for example)? Perhaps not something for your 964 cabrio given the sunk costs! The system has dramatically better performance than the factory aircon in aircooleds.

Meanwhile I guess there are other compromises that I would enjoy contemplating!
- get a piston single plane for trips to Normandy but stick to easyjet for Italy?
- keep the RS in Italy? Access to better roads and less congestion perhaps?
- get a road-focussed caterham or similar to keep in Normandy?
- stick to Sundays for nice country pub trips when London roads are a bit quieter.
- stick to the moderns on hot summers' days!








964Cup

Original Poster:

693 posts

182 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
braddo said:
It's an interesting thread, leading into how each person makes different compromises to balance the competing aspects of life. Some of the dilemmas are familiar to me (on a much more modest scale), e.g. living in London versus the joy of driving; having an older/cooler car but which is reliable and useable, and wife-friendly(!); tactile driving experience vs refinement for long distances and nice trips.

One of my compromises is that I want to live in central-ish London and so to enjoy some spirited driving, it means early morning drives on weekends to the countryside (and a few track days). That is a compromise I'm happy to make but it's clearly not for everyone.

For the OP, perhaps a priority is to get an interim useable car to enjoy some driving until your three get finalised (or sold) to your satisfaction - something from 2007-2010 like a 997 GTS/GT3 or Lotus Evora? These cars are ULEZ compliant and modern while being just before cars get more digital and insulated.

Have you heard about the electric aircon for older cars (911 focussed but they have done an E-type for example)? Perhaps not something for your 964 cabrio given the sunk costs! The system has dramatically better performance than the factory aircon in aircooleds.

Meanwhile I guess there are other compromises that I would enjoy contemplating!
- get a piston single plane for trips to Normandy but stick to easyjet for Italy?
- keep the RS in Italy? Access to better roads and less congestion perhaps?
- get a road-focussed caterham or similar to keep in Normandy?
- stick to Sundays for nice country pub trips when London roads are a bit quieter.
- stick to the moderns on hot summers' days!
All good thoughts. I think my current malaise is partly specific to all three cars being troublesome at the moment, and it taking longer to fix them than I'd hoped. It's time, not money, that's at the root of it - I want to have at least one of them on the button so that when an opportunity to enjoy using an interesting car arises, I have one to use. It doesn't seem to matter how willing one is to fund restoration and repair work - it always seems to drag on, and patience is not one of my virtues. I don't have the skills or the space (at least in London) to do the work myself. Ironically we already have a classic in Normandy - a Peugeot 304S cabriolet which, while slow, is a lovely thing for a summer's pootle. That car is, of course, also broken and presently stuck with a French local garage who make any the UK outfits looking after my other cars look like Speedy Gonzales.

So the answer (light aircraft aside, which is a very interesting re-opening of an idea I first had more than a decade ago and never pursued) is probably some combination of gritting my teeth and waiting until at least one of them is fixed; accepting that old cars are unlikely to be perfect - you can see from the list earlier that I can't help trying to build 100-pointers; and perhaps buying something properly modern and under warranty that might be expected to work without needing to pray to the gods of 90s electronic voodoo or 60s rust.

I can't decide on that front if I want a cool car, a fast car or a track car. The GT3 Touring appeals as it ticks all three boxes (to my eyes), but it's a lot of money for a palliative - and I think generally overpriced when you can buy the same car with a wing for at least £30k less. The i8 roadster is definitely cool, and prices for those seem to be in freefall - ex-demonstrators at 40k off list with less than 1k miles - but presumably a) they'll continue to lose value like a stone kicked off a cliff and b) there must be a reason why nobody seems to want one. If I actually drove anywhere with any frequency for a purpose, and we didn't already have two brand new modern family cars, I'd buy one and just eat the depreciation, but as an occasional toy I don't think it makes sense, or is special enough.

If you were going to spend up to £100k (because much over that and I'll just buy the GT3) what would you get? - on the stipulation that it can't be any trouble at all to own, must start on the button even if it's not moved for a month, and should ideally not have a depreciation curve that looks like a recent tech IPO (being able to afford to lose the money and wanting to are different things, I find).

911 Carrera T (is it special enough?)
911 Targa (ditto - and again these seem to be holding value in a slightly odd and unsustainable way)
Alfa 4C (with the aftermarket handling fixes)
Some rarified version of the Exige (but very much track only, I think)
I did want a Morgan Aeromax for a long time; I never bought one and they now seem to be rarely available and then only at proper money; I imagine now that they're also getting long enough in the tooth that they need babying and prayer

...suggestions on a postcard please...

Oh, and on the electric aircon front it's in the roadmap for the RS and the 356. They don't actually make a kit for 964s, but I've asked the question; the factory A/C in the cabrio will be fine, even though it is indeed feeble, if we can stop the VDO ECU acting as a cabin heater. The issue with the 356 is that the aircon apparenly needs about 1hp; that's about 60A. The 356's generator only makes about 25A, so you have to do an alternator upgrade and some rewiring; you also have to source a factory forced ventilation system if you don't have one already - I don't as mine was originally a US car - and do some reasonably serious rejigging of the front of the car. I'm increasingly convinced I'm going to do an EV conversion on the 356, at which point 60A will be a mere bagatelle, but I think I'll wait for the next generation of battery systems as I'd like to get at least 250 miles of range.

aeropilot

18,591 posts

172 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
964Cup said:
I'm increasingly convinced I'm going to do an EV conversion on the 356
eekfuriousredcard

I'm out of this thread now.


Yellow T

147 posts

17 months

Tuesday 10th September
quotequote all
A Targa vs a T is a very different proposition depending on what version of the Targa you are interested in. A manual T vs a 991.2 Targa PDK are very different driving experiences. I test drove the latter when I had a tiptronic 997.1 and it felt like a luxury cruiser in comparison. It's all personal taste which is why I settled on a T with LWB's as it has a similar feeling to my 997.1 albeit more modern. For more luxury and comfort you might prefer a Targa but I would want the GTS variant which might blow the budget. I would imagine you might be able to get a back to back test drive for both these models. Approx 176 manual T's in the UK with 9 (manuals) for sale at the moment.

Edited by Yellow T on Tuesday 10th September 10:21