Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?
Discussion
Yellow T said:
A Targa vs a T is a very different proposition depending on what version of the Targa you are interested in. A manual T vs a 991.2 Targa PDK are very different driving experiences. I test drove the latter when I had a tiptronic 997.1 and it felt like a luxury cruiser in comparison. It's all personal taste which is why I settled on a T with LWB's as it has a similar feeling to my 997.1 albeit more modern. For more luxury and comfort you might prefer a Targa but I would want the GTS variant which might blow the budget. I would imagine you might be able to get a back to back test drive for both these models. Approx 176 manual T's in the UK with 9 (manuals) for sale at the moment.
If I l knew what I was interested in, this whole thread would have been much shorter. I'm mostly just casting around in frustration. I think I want something that's just practical enough not to irritate me if I'm using it to flit back and forth to France while the rest of the clan are out there for the summer, while being special enough to make me smile when I open the garage, fast enough to do the occasional track day and reliable enough not to add itself to my list of problem children. All this while not depreciating so fast that I can actually see the money evaporating as a sort of miasma around the car.Edited by Yellow T on Tuesday 10th September 10:21
As I said, feh.
I agree about the impracticality of a light a/c in the UK unless you can fly from your own strip or live conveniently close to a small airfield. Private flying is seldom justifiable financially speaking which more realistically gets you to flying for fun rather than a transportation need.
If you're flying for fun it'll lose its appeal unless you have an objective, a regular destination, aerobatic competitions, long-range rallies, vintage aircraft or specialist flying such as bush, mountain, seaplane etc.
Other than take-offs & landings the rest often is, as it should be, remarkably hum-drum. Aero's aren't for everybody, so that option might not work but if it does it's a short intensive rush like a quick spin on a superbike or supercar which doesn't have the same time requirement as cross-country flight.
I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about the medium-term future of ICE engines - that 356/ GT3 Touring fleet might be the most practical option for London.
If you're flying for fun it'll lose its appeal unless you have an objective, a regular destination, aerobatic competitions, long-range rallies, vintage aircraft or specialist flying such as bush, mountain, seaplane etc.
Other than take-offs & landings the rest often is, as it should be, remarkably hum-drum. Aero's aren't for everybody, so that option might not work but if it does it's a short intensive rush like a quick spin on a superbike or supercar which doesn't have the same time requirement as cross-country flight.
I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about the medium-term future of ICE engines - that 356/ GT3 Touring fleet might be the most practical option for London.
964Cup said:
If I l knew what I was interested in, this whole thread would have been much shorter. I'm mostly just casting around in frustration. I think I want something that's just practical enough not to irritate me if I'm using it to flit back and forth to France while the rest of the clan are out there for the summer, while being special enough to make me smile when I open the garage, fast enough to do the occasional track day and reliable enough not to add itself to my list of problem children. All this while not depreciating so fast that I can actually see the money evaporating as a sort of miasma around the car.
As I said, feh.
Given what you've said with a 100k budget I would suggest a 991.2 GTS PDK. Comfortable enough for long distances and trackable. If however, you wanted the narrow bodied then plump for a T in a spec that suits and save a few quid.As I said, feh.
Penguinracer said:
I agree about the impracticality of a light a/c in the UK unless you can fly from your own strip or live conveniently close to a small airfield. Private flying is seldom justifiable financially speaking which more realistically gets you to flying for fun rather than a transportation need.
If you're flying for fun it'll lose its appeal unless you have an objective, a regular destination, aerobatic competitions, long-range rallies, vintage aircraft or specialist flying such as bush, mountain, seaplane etc.
Other than take-offs & landings the rest often is, as it should be, remarkably hum-drum. Aero's aren't for everybody, so that option might not work but if it does it's a short intensive rush like a quick spin on a superbike or supercar which doesn't have the same time requirement as cross-country flight.
I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about the medium-term future of ICE engines - that 356/ GT3 Touring fleet might be the most practical option for London.
Nothing compares to your first solo circuit and landing. Best done when least expecting it when your instructor says "right, drop me off here and do one circuit, land, and taxi back."If you're flying for fun it'll lose its appeal unless you have an objective, a regular destination, aerobatic competitions, long-range rallies, vintage aircraft or specialist flying such as bush, mountain, seaplane etc.
Other than take-offs & landings the rest often is, as it should be, remarkably hum-drum. Aero's aren't for everybody, so that option might not work but if it does it's a short intensive rush like a quick spin on a superbike or supercar which doesn't have the same time requirement as cross-country flight.
I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about the medium-term future of ICE engines - that 356/ GT3 Touring fleet might be the most practical option for London.
We were on the ground at the time btw!
Interesting thread as it mirrors some of my thinking, albeit with lower value P cars. Those who think moving to a rural location is the answer to all your motoring woes can add another factor into the aggravation, and that is servicing, unless you can spanner yourself, and don't care about a stamped service book. My nearest OPC is about 90 minutes away, and I'm not going to bother them with a 993. I have yet to find an easily accessible indy anywhere within sensible reach. If I need the daily SUV serviced on the other hand, it's a 20 minute run to the local dealer.
Ken Sington said:
Interesting thread as it mirrors some of my thinking, albeit with lower value P cars. Those who think moving to a rural location is the answer to all your motoring woes can add another factor into the aggravation, and that is servicing, unless you can spanner yourself, and don't care about a stamped service book. My nearest OPC is about 90 minutes away, and I'm not going to bother them with a 993. I have yet to find an easily accessible indy anywhere within sensible reach. If I need the daily SUV serviced on the other hand, it's a 20 minute run to the local dealer.
My nearest OPC IS 90 minutes away and I DO bother them with a 993! Part of the fun is the drive to get it serviced.I guess living in any large city and owning a fast car will be a frustration. I would be keeping the RS and getting a GT3 Touring if I was in the OP's shoes. Or a 991.2 GTS would be a good stopgap while waiting for the right car at the right price. Where to find a manual GTS though?
You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.
Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.
If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.
If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
Rocketsocks said:
You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.
Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.
If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
Interesting perspective. I'm basing my thinking partly on theory - that may well be wrong - looking at cruise speeds, and comparing 30 mins drive to Elstree, an hour for pre-flight, about 2.5hrs flight time to Aosta, say 30 mins to wrap the plane up at that end and then a 45 minute drive (5h15) with either a 12-hour drive or 45 mins drive to Luton, 90 mins pratting about in their horrible airport, 2hrs flight time to Linate, an hour to escape and a 1.5hr drive at the other end (or much the same Luton-Geneva) giving 6h45. It's the time-saving over driving I care about, and the avoidance of large airports and Easyjet.Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.
If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
The other basis is an American friend of mine who flies everywhere (including Florida to Kelowna in BC for skiing, which is how I know him). I forget what plane he has now, but he did have a Baron. He seems to think of it as equivalent to driving, and certainly exhibits little evidence of stress. He may be unusual; he's certainly experienced.
NetJets is obviously an alternative, but not for the local aerodromes we'd be most interested in using, I think (although I guess we could go LCY to Deauville and either Aosta or one of the Milan airports).
Yes, an early-80s KingAir E90 was the sort of thing. Are they that terrible?
Rocketsocks said:
You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.
Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.
If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
The most sensible post on Pistonheads today. Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.
I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.
If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
You can't really compare private flying in the U.S., Canada, Australia or New Zealand with flying in Europe.
This is something I realised when I came over here from NZ in '96.
I learnt to fly a light aircraft out of an International Airport with everything from 747's, US & NZ military aircraft & everything in between sharing the airspace - that wouldn't happen in Europe - the mentality is entirely different.
Flight training in those countries as is a/c maintenance is a fraction of the price it is in Europe. Plenty of farmers run a/c from their farms & some of the better-off ones have turbine a/c or turbine helicopters.
For a start those countries have plenty of well-maintained small airfields close to anywhere you'd want to go.
Their regulatory regime treats general aviation the same as Airline Transport - so if you want to fly your Cessna 150 into an International Airport, you invariably can - it'll cost more, be further from your destination & generally be more hassle than using a smaller aerodrome - but you'll be allowed to do it. There's a sense of equality for all airmen/airwomen irrespective of their aircraft type which just doesn't exist in Europe.
Also - in places with serious weather and terrain there's generally equally strong training available in mountain flying & IFR training requirements are often very stringent.
Flying for fun with transportation as the by-product under suitable conditions is a realistic ambition, but if you have to get there no matter what then you can't beat a budget airline.
This is something I realised when I came over here from NZ in '96.
I learnt to fly a light aircraft out of an International Airport with everything from 747's, US & NZ military aircraft & everything in between sharing the airspace - that wouldn't happen in Europe - the mentality is entirely different.
Flight training in those countries as is a/c maintenance is a fraction of the price it is in Europe. Plenty of farmers run a/c from their farms & some of the better-off ones have turbine a/c or turbine helicopters.
For a start those countries have plenty of well-maintained small airfields close to anywhere you'd want to go.
Their regulatory regime treats general aviation the same as Airline Transport - so if you want to fly your Cessna 150 into an International Airport, you invariably can - it'll cost more, be further from your destination & generally be more hassle than using a smaller aerodrome - but you'll be allowed to do it. There's a sense of equality for all airmen/airwomen irrespective of their aircraft type which just doesn't exist in Europe.
Also - in places with serious weather and terrain there's generally equally strong training available in mountain flying & IFR training requirements are often very stringent.
Flying for fun with transportation as the by-product under suitable conditions is a realistic ambition, but if you have to get there no matter what then you can't beat a budget airline.
Penguinracer said:
It's not all negative...private flying isn't the poor relation to airline flying.
Private flying can give you some things airline flying never could...like an inverted flat spin which you can walk away from!
Or, presumably, not walk away from.Private flying can give you some things airline flying never could...like an inverted flat spin which you can walk away from!
You chaps are really selling it, I must say.
Still, I might try for a PPL, at least, to see what all the fuss is about.
)Late to this party, but it has made for an interesting read on a quiet-at-work afternoon.
OP : I am not, nor am I ever likely to be, quite in your boat. But on two or three occasions (including the present time) I have found myself dodging the 'slings and arrows' and needing to significantly downgrade my cars until my business picked up.
On each occasion, I have found hunting, buying and driving something cheap but characterful to be both enormously liberating and tremendous fun. I'm off to see a 986 tomorrow which is less than 20% of the price of the car i've just had to sell.
I would hazard a guess that you'd have equally as much fun in something £5k, N/A with skinny tyres than you do in your current fleet?
OP : I am not, nor am I ever likely to be, quite in your boat. But on two or three occasions (including the present time) I have found myself dodging the 'slings and arrows' and needing to significantly downgrade my cars until my business picked up.
On each occasion, I have found hunting, buying and driving something cheap but characterful to be both enormously liberating and tremendous fun. I'm off to see a 986 tomorrow which is less than 20% of the price of the car i've just had to sell.
I would hazard a guess that you'd have equally as much fun in something £5k, N/A with skinny tyres than you do in your current fleet?
Keep the 356, sell the others.
Its also worth remembering something like 80% of 'pollution' is in the creation and destruction of the average vehicle. Driving a couple of thousand miles (on a good year!) in a real classic or modern classic is really not as damaging to the world as people would have you believe, imho. Filling landfills with plastic crap we dont need however....but i digress.
Why is your 356 overheating? I ran a 1967 912 in central london for three years and once i was on top of the servicing and maintenance I had no overheating issues. I now have a 1968 Elan with a Sprint spec engine, in central london, which arguably has far worse inherent cooling issues than a tweaked 356 engine and i have no cooling issues, its well serviced and has an upgraded radiator and electric fan on a thermostat.
There is no reason why your 356 cannot handle modern driving conditions. Who looks after it for you? Andy Prill (£££) or Revival Cars would be my choice for you.
Its also worth remembering something like 80% of 'pollution' is in the creation and destruction of the average vehicle. Driving a couple of thousand miles (on a good year!) in a real classic or modern classic is really not as damaging to the world as people would have you believe, imho. Filling landfills with plastic crap we dont need however....but i digress.
Why is your 356 overheating? I ran a 1967 912 in central london for three years and once i was on top of the servicing and maintenance I had no overheating issues. I now have a 1968 Elan with a Sprint spec engine, in central london, which arguably has far worse inherent cooling issues than a tweaked 356 engine and i have no cooling issues, its well serviced and has an upgraded radiator and electric fan on a thermostat.
There is no reason why your 356 cannot handle modern driving conditions. Who looks after it for you? Andy Prill (£££) or Revival Cars would be my choice for you.
KPB1973 said:
Late to this party, but it has made for an interesting read on a quiet-at-work afternoon.
OP : I am not, nor am I ever likely to be, quite in your boat. But on two or three occasions (including the present time) I have found myself dodging the 'slings and arrows' and needing to significantly downgrade my cars until my business picked up.
On each occasion, I have found hunting, buying and driving something cheap but characterful to be both enormously liberating and tremendous fun. I'm off to see a 986 tomorrow which is less than 20% of the price of the car i've just had to sell.
I would hazard a guess that you'd have equally as much fun in something £5k, N/A with skinny tyres than you do in your current fleet?
I saw a red 986 recently and thought what a fantastic way into a Porsche. Amazing cars. On a twisty circuit they're so much fun. And fast through corners too! Cayman/Boxster do make air-cooled prices seem daft.OP : I am not, nor am I ever likely to be, quite in your boat. But on two or three occasions (including the present time) I have found myself dodging the 'slings and arrows' and needing to significantly downgrade my cars until my business picked up.
On each occasion, I have found hunting, buying and driving something cheap but characterful to be both enormously liberating and tremendous fun. I'm off to see a 986 tomorrow which is less than 20% of the price of the car i've just had to sell.
I would hazard a guess that you'd have equally as much fun in something £5k, N/A with skinny tyres than you do in your current fleet?
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