Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

Feh. Do I sell all the classics and just buy a modern?

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Discussion

cossers

1,663 posts

85 months

Tuesday 10th September
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Have to say I’d hate to have this dilemma and I’d love to be a pound behind you by the sounds of it :-) but living in London and being a petrol head must be soul destroying :-(

I live in Ireland (the north bit! Lol) It’s rains a lot, people can get on like assholes, our politicians are beyond useless but if your a petrol head it doesn’t get much better tbh, the roads are fantastic and unless your going to Belfast you’ll never see a que! Police generally leave you alone unless your being a tit and you rarely see them anyway.

DJMC

2,499 posts

48 months

Tuesday 10th September
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964Cup said:
So the answer (light aircraft aside, which is a very interesting re-opening of an idea I first had more than a decade ago and never pursued)...
Won't work. For UK trips it doesn't make sense. Drive to the airfield. Check aircraft. Check weather. Book in flight plan. Fuel up. All takes a great deal of time. Then when you land at the destination, if you're staying overnight there are parking fees and you have to arrange ground transport to your destination.

Generally quicker, easier and cheaper by car.

WCZ

7,006 posts

139 months

Tuesday 10th September
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CarreraLightweightRacing said:
Depends on what you call modern; I'd say there is a lovely little sweet spot between the two. My toys are from the late 90's in the main and just strike that perfect balance of modern reliability, performance, tactility and fun, without the concerns of numbness and digital interference of the newer Gen cars or the troubles you are facing with the classic cars. Below refers but other great options are available wink
really nice selection.

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Tuesday 10th September
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DJMC said:
Won't work. For UK trips it doesn't make sense. Drive to the airfield. Check aircraft. Check weather. Book in flight plan. Fuel up. All takes a great deal of time. Then when you land at the destination, if you're staying overnight there are parking fees and you have to arrange ground transport to your destination.

Generally quicker, easier and cheaper by car.
Not for the UK. We have houses in Normandy and Northern Italy; in France we have a choice of Deauville (actual international airport) and Bernay (aerodrome); in Italy I think we could fly into Aosta. With the right plane either one is likely to save us some significant time vs our current habit of driving - France is between 6 and 8 hours door-to-door depending on the state of the M20 and (when returning) how Border Farce are performing; Italy is 11-13 hours. The issue for Italy is you have to either get across the Alps or go around them (much longer flight), so we need something with appropriate ceiling and performance, and if it's to be more convenient than driving we have to be able to fly at night and in poor weather. So it's a turboprop rather than a piston plane, I think, and I'd still prefer a twin although that's a significant cost increase. In that context neither parking fees nor having a car to leave at the destination airport strike me as major considerations.

For clarity I'll add that you can't easily fly from London to Normandy (you have to go Southend-Caen at the moment, which is absurd). You can fly London-Milan or London-Geneva, obvs, but then have a 1.5hr drive at the other end to add to all the hideousness of airports and cheap airlines. Much more importantly my wife has never quite got to terms with travelling light, so we tend to fill the car to the brim every time, way beyond any sensible baggage allowance - or my desire to hulk bags around in airports.

Anyway, it's not really in the same expenditure decision league as the GT3/T/Targa/something else debate.

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Tuesday 10th September
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Yellow T said:
A Targa vs a T is a very different proposition depending on what version of the Targa you are interested in. A manual T vs a 991.2 Targa PDK are very different driving experiences. I test drove the latter when I had a tiptronic 997.1 and it felt like a luxury cruiser in comparison. It's all personal taste which is why I settled on a T with LWB's as it has a similar feeling to my 997.1 albeit more modern. For more luxury and comfort you might prefer a Targa but I would want the GTS variant which might blow the budget. I would imagine you might be able to get a back to back test drive for both these models. Approx 176 manual T's in the UK with 9 (manuals) for sale at the moment.

Edited by Yellow T on Tuesday 10th September 10:21
If I l knew what I was interested in, this whole thread would have been much shorter. I'm mostly just casting around in frustration. I think I want something that's just practical enough not to irritate me if I'm using it to flit back and forth to France while the rest of the clan are out there for the summer, while being special enough to make me smile when I open the garage, fast enough to do the occasional track day and reliable enough not to add itself to my list of problem children. All this while not depreciating so fast that I can actually see the money evaporating as a sort of miasma around the car.

As I said, feh.

Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Tuesday 10th September
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I agree about the impracticality of a light a/c in the UK unless you can fly from your own strip or live conveniently close to a small airfield. Private flying is seldom justifiable financially speaking which more realistically gets you to flying for fun rather than a transportation need.

If you're flying for fun it'll lose its appeal unless you have an objective, a regular destination, aerobatic competitions, long-range rallies, vintage aircraft or specialist flying such as bush, mountain, seaplane etc.

Other than take-offs & landings the rest often is, as it should be, remarkably hum-drum. Aero's aren't for everybody, so that option might not work but if it does it's a short intensive rush like a quick spin on a superbike or supercar which doesn't have the same time requirement as cross-country flight.

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about the medium-term future of ICE engines - that 356/ GT3 Touring fleet might be the most practical option for London.

Yellow T

147 posts

17 months

Tuesday 10th September
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964Cup said:
If I l knew what I was interested in, this whole thread would have been much shorter. I'm mostly just casting around in frustration. I think I want something that's just practical enough not to irritate me if I'm using it to flit back and forth to France while the rest of the clan are out there for the summer, while being special enough to make me smile when I open the garage, fast enough to do the occasional track day and reliable enough not to add itself to my list of problem children. All this while not depreciating so fast that I can actually see the money evaporating as a sort of miasma around the car.

As I said, feh.
Given what you've said with a 100k budget I would suggest a 991.2 GTS PDK. Comfortable enough for long distances and trackable. If however, you wanted the narrow bodied then plump for a T in a spec that suits and save a few quid.

DJMC

2,499 posts

48 months

Tuesday 10th September
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Penguinracer said:
I agree about the impracticality of a light a/c in the UK unless you can fly from your own strip or live conveniently close to a small airfield. Private flying is seldom justifiable financially speaking which more realistically gets you to flying for fun rather than a transportation need.

If you're flying for fun it'll lose its appeal unless you have an objective, a regular destination, aerobatic competitions, long-range rallies, vintage aircraft or specialist flying such as bush, mountain, seaplane etc.

Other than take-offs & landings the rest often is, as it should be, remarkably hum-drum. Aero's aren't for everybody, so that option might not work but if it does it's a short intensive rush like a quick spin on a superbike or supercar which doesn't have the same time requirement as cross-country flight.

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about the medium-term future of ICE engines - that 356/ GT3 Touring fleet might be the most practical option for London.
Nothing compares to your first solo circuit and landing. Best done when least expecting it when your instructor says "right, drop me off here and do one circuit, land, and taxi back."
We were on the ground at the time btw!

Ken Sington

3,919 posts

183 months

Wednesday 11th September
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Interesting thread as it mirrors some of my thinking, albeit with lower value P cars. Those who think moving to a rural location is the answer to all your motoring woes can add another factor into the aggravation, and that is servicing, unless you can spanner yourself, and don't care about a stamped service book. My nearest OPC is about 90 minutes away, and I'm not going to bother them with a 993. I have yet to find an easily accessible indy anywhere within sensible reach. If I need the daily SUV serviced on the other hand, it's a 20 minute run to the local dealer.

browngt3

766 posts

156 months

Wednesday 11th September
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Ken Sington said:
Interesting thread as it mirrors some of my thinking, albeit with lower value P cars. Those who think moving to a rural location is the answer to all your motoring woes can add another factor into the aggravation, and that is servicing, unless you can spanner yourself, and don't care about a stamped service book. My nearest OPC is about 90 minutes away, and I'm not going to bother them with a 993. I have yet to find an easily accessible indy anywhere within sensible reach. If I need the daily SUV serviced on the other hand, it's a 20 minute run to the local dealer.
My nearest OPC IS 90 minutes away and I DO bother them with a 993! Part of the fun is the drive to get it serviced.

I guess living in any large city and owning a fast car will be a frustration. I would be keeping the RS and getting a GT3 Touring if I was in the OP's shoes. Or a 991.2 GTS would be a good stopgap while waiting for the right car at the right price. Where to find a manual GTS though?

Rocketsocks

117 posts

83 months

Thursday 12th September
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You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.

Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.

If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
Rocketsocks said:
You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.

Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.

If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
Interesting perspective. I'm basing my thinking partly on theory - that may well be wrong - looking at cruise speeds, and comparing 30 mins drive to Elstree, an hour for pre-flight, about 2.5hrs flight time to Aosta, say 30 mins to wrap the plane up at that end and then a 45 minute drive (5h15) with either a 12-hour drive or 45 mins drive to Luton, 90 mins pratting about in their horrible airport, 2hrs flight time to Linate, an hour to escape and a 1.5hr drive at the other end (or much the same Luton-Geneva) giving 6h45. It's the time-saving over driving I care about, and the avoidance of large airports and Easyjet.

The other basis is an American friend of mine who flies everywhere (including Florida to Kelowna in BC for skiing, which is how I know him). I forget what plane he has now, but he did have a Baron. He seems to think of it as equivalent to driving, and certainly exhibits little evidence of stress. He may be unusual; he's certainly experienced.

NetJets is obviously an alternative, but not for the local aerodromes we'd be most interested in using, I think (although I guess we could go LCY to Deauville and either Aosta or one of the Milan airports).

Yes, an early-80s KingAir E90 was the sort of thing. Are they that terrible?

Discombobulate

3,541 posts

131 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
Rocketsocks said:
You will never ‘save time’ by operating your own aircraft in the uk.

Your cost estimates for obtaining a licence that legally allow you to do these trips are actually quite sensible, but you will not have the experience to deal with things going wrong. Throw in a bit of bad weather, a tired and worried family sat in the back, you (the pilot) operating with minimal experience and currency, and a crappy old twin with poor performance and you’ll soon be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Believe me, it is a terrifying feeling to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I’ve delivered over 7000 hours of flight training in light twins, I’ve flown 20+ tonne turboprops and currently fly the Boeing 737-800 as my day job. Despite having over 20 years of flying experience under my belt, I can tell you now, I would not dream of taking on the kind of trips you’re talking about in the kind of aircraft that will be available to you.

If you’re that wealthy that you can afford to buy and run an aircraft suitable to do these European trips. (I’m guessing something like an old KingAir is the minimum you’re looking at?) and can afford the King’s ransom it will cost to operate it, I’d strongly advise you to put your money into some time with NetJets instead.
The most sensible post on Pistonheads today.

Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
You can't really compare private flying in the U.S., Canada, Australia or New Zealand with flying in Europe.
This is something I realised when I came over here from NZ in '96.
I learnt to fly a light aircraft out of an International Airport with everything from 747's, US & NZ military aircraft & everything in between sharing the airspace - that wouldn't happen in Europe - the mentality is entirely different.

Flight training in those countries as is a/c maintenance is a fraction of the price it is in Europe. Plenty of farmers run a/c from their farms & some of the better-off ones have turbine a/c or turbine helicopters.

For a start those countries have plenty of well-maintained small airfields close to anywhere you'd want to go.
Their regulatory regime treats general aviation the same as Airline Transport - so if you want to fly your Cessna 150 into an International Airport, you invariably can - it'll cost more, be further from your destination & generally be more hassle than using a smaller aerodrome - but you'll be allowed to do it. There's a sense of equality for all airmen/airwomen irrespective of their aircraft type which just doesn't exist in Europe.

Also - in places with serious weather and terrain there's generally equally strong training available in mountain flying & IFR training requirements are often very stringent.

Flying for fun with transportation as the by-product under suitable conditions is a realistic ambition, but if you have to get there no matter what then you can't beat a budget airline.

Penguinracer

834 posts

151 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
It's not all negative...private flying isn't the poor relation to airline flying.

Private flying can give you some things airline flying never could...like an inverted flat spin which you can walk away from!biggrin

964Cup

Original Poster:

694 posts

182 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
Penguinracer said:
It's not all negative...private flying isn't the poor relation to airline flying.

Private flying can give you some things airline flying never could...like an inverted flat spin which you can walk away from!biggrin
Or, presumably, not walk away from.

You chaps are really selling it, I must say.

Still, I might try for a PPL, at least, to see what all the fuss is about.

cmoose

44,929 posts

174 months

Thursday 12th September
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Penguinracer said:
There's a sense of equality for all airmen/airwomen irrespective of their aircraft type which just doesn't exist in Europe.
Sounds great. But isn't that just a function of popularity and airport traffic. I mean, with the best will in the world and no matter how egalitarian you'd like to be, Heathrow can't accommodate small private aircraft while pushing through the huge numbers of airliners it does day in, day out. Surely?

braddo

6,395 posts

133 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Penguinracer said:
There's a sense of equality for all airmen/airwomen irrespective of their aircraft type which just doesn't exist in Europe.
Sounds great. But isn't that just a function of popularity and airport traffic. I mean, with the best will in the world and no matter how egalitarian you'd like to be, Heathrow can't accommodate small private aircraft while pushing through the huge numbers of airliners it does day in, day out. Surely?
Auckland or Brisbane International are indeed just a bit less busy than Heathrow. hehe

(Not a jibe at Penguinracer at all, the flying info has been very interesting smile )


ETA - do Netjets offer inverted flat spins? biggrin It might tempt me for a trip to the Riviera!

highway

1,167 posts

205 months

Thursday 12th September
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I’m feeling vividly like a member of the proletariat

Discombobulate

3,541 posts

131 months

Thursday 12th September
quotequote all
highway said:
I’m feeling vividly like a member of the proletariat
Aye, me too. A King Air costs around £1000 per flying hour - once you have bought it of course.