GT3 / 3RS / Touring
Discussion
964Cup said:
Gently bringing this thread back to its original purpose (or at least its new original purpose once I found out that RMA's Spa day was actually going ahead and I had to get my skates on)...
What do we think a good time looks like round Spa in a 1.GT3RS on Cup 2s? I find it slightly irritating that at least half the lap videos one can find are 12-year-olds on a playstation, not actual cars. Modern graphics are so good that it takes a moment to realise you're watching little Bradley work his thumbs while "dissing" someone else's mother over his headset. I suspect the 2:33's they boast of might be a little optimistic in the real world.
I'm going with 2:40 as a consensus really fast lap time on road tyres. The last time I drove Spa was twenty years ago in a 993RS Touring; I don't think I even had lap timing kit then, and if I did, I've long lost the files. So I think I'll be happy if I can get with 10% of 2:40 on day 1 - something like a 2:56. Does that sound reasonable?
Us last year in my .1 RS albeit on PS4:What do we think a good time looks like round Spa in a 1.GT3RS on Cup 2s? I find it slightly irritating that at least half the lap videos one can find are 12-year-olds on a playstation, not actual cars. Modern graphics are so good that it takes a moment to realise you're watching little Bradley work his thumbs while "dissing" someone else's mother over his headset. I suspect the 2:33's they boast of might be a little optimistic in the real world.
I'm going with 2:40 as a consensus really fast lap time on road tyres. The last time I drove Spa was twenty years ago in a 993RS Touring; I don't think I even had lap timing kit then, and if I did, I've long lost the files. So I think I'll be happy if I can get with 10% of 2:40 on day 1 - something like a 2:56. Does that sound reasonable?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xthw3xQ5MTY
As fast as these GT cars are in straight lines, just watch out for the Radicals and prototypes!
DomT87 said:
Us last year in my .1 RS albeit on PS4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xthw3xQ5MTY
As fast as these GT cars are in straight lines, just watch out for the Radicals and prototypes!
A nice lap, not pushing hard but competent and smooth and easy on the car, tyres and brakes.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xthw3xQ5MTY
As fast as these GT cars are in straight lines, just watch out for the Radicals and prototypes!
That's a good aiming point time that to set a base for the guy visiting.
The issue I find in the EU is the standards are FAR higher, in the UK that lap would be top 10% drivers on the day and you would feel like a king and be very happy and not really have to be on your mirrors all the time, infact you would over take most cars driving to that standard.
In the EU people are just faster and don't obey the rules, you can be 3 abreast into a bend at Spa on a track day with these guys doing sub 2.40's.
But as the guys a racer that should be ok, 3 a breast on a track day was a shock to me into a bend.
So looking at the multiple laps and drivers a good driver at Spa is 2.45 and doable if you are used to track driving well.
Finding time sub 2.45 means car wear will be 4x the amount and you have to really push and think.
At donnington I can lap that track pretty well, say 5 seconds off the fastest laps and do it all day without thinking, to knock 2/3 seconds off that takes thinking power and I can do 2 or 3 laps at the faster pace but you do also have to be in that mood I find to want to really go for it. Also at the faster pace tyres just get hot and after a few FAST laps they go greesy any way.
These 2.36 laps are qually laps for you tube, cars preped, tyres heat cycled and perfect temps and you go straight out and do the lap in one.
The Tyres would not even do 3 laps at 2.36 imho esp the Dunlops, I got 1.5 laps at Spa from my Dunlops before they over heated !! 2 laps = 65oc tyres and they were useless, also they picked up so much rubber due to the heat that really killed performance later in the day, Dunlops suck imo.
My mate has only Super Sports road tyres had zero issues doing 4 or 5 laps at a go.
Porsche911R said:
A nice lap, not pushing hard but competent and smooth and easy on the car, tyres and brakes.
That's a good aiming point time that to set a base for the guy visiting.
The issue I find in the EU is the standards are FAR higher, in the UK that lap would be top 10% drivers on the day and you would feel like a king and be very happy and not really have to be on your mirrors all the time, infact you would over take most cars driving to that standard.
In the EU people are just faster and don't obey the rules, you can be 3 abreast into a bend at Spa on a track day with these guys doing sub 2.40's.
But as the guys a racer that should be ok, 3 a breast on a track day was a shock to me into a bend.
So looking at the multiple laps and drivers a good driver at Spa is 2.45 and doable if you are used to track driving well.
Finding time sub 2.45 means car wear will be 4x the amount and you have to really push and think.
At donnington I can lap that track pretty well, say 5 seconds off the fastest laps and do it all day without thinking, to knock 2/3 seconds off that takes thinking power and I can do 2 or 3 laps at the faster pace but you do also have to be in that mood I find to want to really go for it. Also at the faster pace tyres just get hot and after a few FAST laps they go greesy any way.
These 2.36 laps are qually laps for you tube, cars preped, tyres heat cycled and perfect temps and you go straight out and do the lap in one.
The Tyres would not even do 3 laps at 2.36 imho esp the Dunlops, I got 1.5 laps at Spa from my Dunlops before they over heated !! 2 laps = 65oc tyres and they were useless, also they picked up so much rubber due to the heat that really killed performance later in the day, Dunlops suck imo.
My mate has only Super Sports road tyres had zero issues doing 4 or 5 laps at a go.
While I am chasing lap times, I'm not chasing a trip into the armco or a broken car, hence my relatively modest expectations for times. I found at Silverstone in the 964RS, on a cool day, Cup2s worked best in 5-lap stints - out, warm-up, two hot, cool-down. Trying for a third lap tended to be slower and looser. I'm expecting better use of the tyres in the GT3 because of better suspension, but it's also going to be much hotter, so I may do only one hot lap per stint, and go for four-lap bursts. There's no point pushing on wilting tyres - it's not a race.That's a good aiming point time that to set a base for the guy visiting.
The issue I find in the EU is the standards are FAR higher, in the UK that lap would be top 10% drivers on the day and you would feel like a king and be very happy and not really have to be on your mirrors all the time, infact you would over take most cars driving to that standard.
In the EU people are just faster and don't obey the rules, you can be 3 abreast into a bend at Spa on a track day with these guys doing sub 2.40's.
But as the guys a racer that should be ok, 3 a breast on a track day was a shock to me into a bend.
So looking at the multiple laps and drivers a good driver at Spa is 2.45 and doable if you are used to track driving well.
Finding time sub 2.45 means car wear will be 4x the amount and you have to really push and think.
At donnington I can lap that track pretty well, say 5 seconds off the fastest laps and do it all day without thinking, to knock 2/3 seconds off that takes thinking power and I can do 2 or 3 laps at the faster pace but you do also have to be in that mood I find to want to really go for it. Also at the faster pace tyres just get hot and after a few FAST laps they go greesy any way.
These 2.36 laps are qually laps for you tube, cars preped, tyres heat cycled and perfect temps and you go straight out and do the lap in one.
The Tyres would not even do 3 laps at 2.36 imho esp the Dunlops, I got 1.5 laps at Spa from my Dunlops before they over heated !! 2 laps = 65oc tyres and they were useless, also they picked up so much rubber due to the heat that really killed performance later in the day, Dunlops suck imo.
My mate has only Super Sports road tyres had zero issues doing 4 or 5 laps at a go.
DomT87 said:
Us last year in my .1 RS albeit on PS4:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xthw3xQ5MTY
As fast as these GT cars are in straight lines, just watch out for the Radicals and prototypes!
that Radical!! Deeply uncomfortable moment! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xthw3xQ5MTY
As fast as these GT cars are in straight lines, just watch out for the Radicals and prototypes!
964Cup said:
While I am chasing lap times, I'm not chasing a trip into the armco or a broken car, hence my relatively modest expectations for times. I found at Silverstone in the 964RS, on a cool day, Cup2s worked best in 5-lap stints - out, warm-up, two hot, cool-down. Trying for a third lap tended to be slower and looser. I'm expecting better use of the tyres in the GT3 because of better suspension, but it's also going to be much hotter, so I may do only one hot lap per stint, and go for four-lap bursts. There's no point pushing on wilting tyres - it's not a race.
You sound skilled and the car sounds great you will easy out do your expectations :-) have fun.964Cup said:
While I am chasing lap times, I'm not chasing a trip into the armco or a broken car, hence my relatively modest expectations for times. I found at Silverstone in the 964RS, on a cool day, Cup2s worked best in 5-lap stints - out, warm-up, two hot, cool-down. Trying for a third lap tended to be slower and looser. I'm expecting better use of the tyres in the GT3 because of better suspension, but it's also going to be much hotter, so I may do only one hot lap per stint, and go for four-lap bursts. There's no point pushing on wilting tyres - it's not a race.
Once did a full tank of gas at Spa in my 64 RS , non stop but I ran it on slicks which I managed to fit inside the car by removing the passenger seat and turning it upside down on the fronts slicks in the foot well ....... the whole chassis used to groan under the flex when on slicks but it was fun ...hunter 66 said:
Once did a full tank of gas at Spa in my 64 RS , non stop but I ran it on slicks which I managed to fit inside the car by removing the passenger seat and turning it upside down on the fronts slicks in the foot well ....... the whole chassis used to groan under the flex when on slicks but it was fun ...
Did every 96RS have a roll cage? I seem to remember from my old Bookatrack days that they would only let you run on slicks if you had a cage - that's funny if even with a cage it groaned under the stress 
When I bought my race-prepped DC2 ITR it came with slicks, I didn't ever get round to trying them on a track day - wiser heads kept telling me that when a car on slicks lets go, it really lets go, and that I should stay on road tyres
nebpor said:
Did every 96RS have a roll cage? I seem to remember from my old Bookatrack days that they would only let you run on slicks if you had a cage - that's funny if even with a cage it groaned under the stress
When I bought my race-prepped DC2 ITR it came with slicks, I didn't ever get round to trying them on a track day - wiser heads kept telling me that when a car on slicks lets go, it really lets go, and that I should stay on road tyres
That's funny - I always thought the opposite. I did most of my track days and (wet races apart) all of my races on slicks, with one exception which ended very badly indeed. I always felt that slicks were more predictable than road tyres, particularly as they wore. I am 20 years out of date, though - the grip in my 964RS at Silverstone on Cup 2s was a world away from how I remember road tyres behaving back in the day.When I bought my race-prepped DC2 ITR it came with slicks, I didn't ever get round to trying them on a track day - wiser heads kept telling me that when a car on slicks lets go, it really lets go, and that I should stay on road tyres
964Cup said:
That's funny - I always thought the opposite. I did most of my track days and (wet races apart) all of my races on slicks, with one exception which ended very badly indeed. I always felt that slicks were more predictable than road tyres, particularly as they wore. I am 20 years out of date, though - the grip in my 964RS at Silverstone on Cup 2s was a world away from how I remember road tyres behaving back in the day.
Road tyre even the few track day tires , were terrible then , beyond bad Not ideal. I failed to listen to my own advice. Pushed hard from session 2, got into the mid 2:40s quite quickly, then ran out of tyres or (more likely) talent and had an unscheduled interface with a tyre wall.The car ran wide on the exit of double-gauche, as it had been doing previously, but rather than just taking the kerb it drifted onto the gravel and spun across the track. I should have known better and aborted the lap I was on earlier, but was trying to stay with a well-driven .2 out of misplaced pride, and I'd missed neither apex nor gone in hotter than the previous lap.
The car was fast, but I couldn't find predictable grip on the limit. I ran with the ESC on for the first few sessions, but was advised by all and sundry that I risked cooking my brakes, so disabled it. That seemed fine until I started to really push again, then I kept finding unexpected loss of grip, especially at the rear. It was hot that day, but not baking, and I would have expected more progressive behaviour from the Cup 2s. I left TC on the whole time, so this wasn't about cooking the tyres by spinning them; they just overheated, I think, despite having been repeatedly bled down to keep the hot pressures in what I had been advised was the optimum range - in the session where I fell off the island I'd run longer.
I suspect the fault is mostly mine, for being rusty and for trying too hard too soon in a new car, despite what I told myself I would do. That said, I'm not convinced that the KW v3 suspension worked optimally once it had been adjusted from its original very aggressive setup into something that could be driven there. It's the race version, not the fast road/clubsport version and I think it needs all the camber and toe to get the best from the tyres. Anyway, racing driver's book of excuses nos. 23, 64 and 117.
The damage to the car was somewhere on the more serious end of superficial - enough to stop me driving it further. I'm back in the UK, so is the car, and I'll get the butcher's bill later this week.
I'll be back, as Arnie says, but chastened. I've clearly forgotten more than I thought, or grown up less than I hoped...
The car was fast, but I couldn't find predictable grip on the limit. I ran with the ESC on for the first few sessions, but was advised by all and sundry that I risked cooking my brakes, so disabled it. That seemed fine until I started to really push again, then I kept finding unexpected loss of grip, especially at the rear. It was hot that day, but not baking, and I would have expected more progressive behaviour from the Cup 2s. I left TC on the whole time, so this wasn't about cooking the tyres by spinning them; they just overheated, I think, despite having been repeatedly bled down to keep the hot pressures in what I had been advised was the optimum range - in the session where I fell off the island I'd run longer.
I suspect the fault is mostly mine, for being rusty and for trying too hard too soon in a new car, despite what I told myself I would do. That said, I'm not convinced that the KW v3 suspension worked optimally once it had been adjusted from its original very aggressive setup into something that could be driven there. It's the race version, not the fast road/clubsport version and I think it needs all the camber and toe to get the best from the tyres. Anyway, racing driver's book of excuses nos. 23, 64 and 117.
The damage to the car was somewhere on the more serious end of superficial - enough to stop me driving it further. I'm back in the UK, so is the car, and I'll get the butcher's bill later this week.
I'll be back, as Arnie says, but chastened. I've clearly forgotten more than I thought, or grown up less than I hoped...
hunter 66 said:
Pressures can got up quickly on a hot day , especially the rears ,which leads to reduced used grip , this is more so on the Dunlops .
Sorry about small excursion ,bu should have know about chasing another car ...next time . A number are going to SS on Sunday for some light running.
Yes - I was shooting for 30psi f/r throughout, but seeing 32. Still not high. For me it was more about the unpredictability, which might well have had something to do with track surface temps and or picking up marbles from the kerbs.Sorry about small excursion ,bu should have know about chasing another car ...next time . A number are going to SS on Sunday for some light running.
The car was, for example, mighty through Eau Rouge - comfortably entering at >160kph, really stable throughout and 177-180kph through the exit. It was flat through the left-hand curve of Blanchimont, which is as you know massively fast, and I had no trouble hitting the apexes at Pouhon.
Looking at the map again, and recalling the incident report (I've not had the balls to look at the video yet) I think this was actually Campus, not Pouhon - I'd been running onto the kerb on the exit towards Stavelot every time, but this time the car found no grip at all and went all the way across onto the gravel, at which point I was a passenger. Presumably too much heat in the RH tyres from Pouhon combined with a hot track surface and marbles on the kerb. It wasn't oversteer (until I hit the gravel), just overall lack of grip sending the car too wide. Possibly if I'd had the brains to get off the throttle earlier I might have been able to ride the gravel out and had a reasonable chance of stopping before hitting the wall at Stavelot, but once it got loose on the gravel it was the typical hard left turn across to the opposite side of the track, glancing front and then RHS impact. Tyre wall, not armco, so really not too bad but minor rad damage and the steering was knocked out, so end of play.
Of course if I'd had those brains, I might have had the brains to go easier on the throttle through the second half of Campus in the first place...
Sorry about what happened however i really enjoy reading your posts about setting up and driving RS..Much better than the constant drivel about values,colours and spec we have to endure..Having said all that UV best colour ever for an RS and i was mighty pissed when it wasn't available on the .2RS WP..
Tyres overheating are a big problem on track especially on hot tarmac..I think some of the tyre heating is caused by starting off cold with too low pressures which cause overheating quickly resulting in pressures rising..Everybody seems to let air out after every session to lower pressures when the actual problem is caused by too little air in the first place..Sometimes its actually better to put air in when tyres overheat to lower the tyres temp rather than the opposite..
It seems counter intuitive however a lot of problems are caused by too little air made worse by letting it out..These new RSs should have temp sensors as well as tyre pressure monitors in them by now..My eight year old 458 has tyre temp sensors so you'd expect Porsche would have them as standard by now.!
Tyres overheating are a big problem on track especially on hot tarmac..I think some of the tyre heating is caused by starting off cold with too low pressures which cause overheating quickly resulting in pressures rising..Everybody seems to let air out after every session to lower pressures when the actual problem is caused by too little air in the first place..Sometimes its actually better to put air in when tyres overheat to lower the tyres temp rather than the opposite..
It seems counter intuitive however a lot of problems are caused by too little air made worse by letting it out..These new RSs should have temp sensors as well as tyre pressure monitors in them by now..My eight year old 458 has tyre temp sensors so you'd expect Porsche would have them as standard by now.!
No 458 talk allowed :-) I told you that...:-p
Always sad news to see an off on a track day :-( so I feel for you there.
my best advice is buy a pyro and sadly try not to listen to too much advice on forums as you have a bespoke car so you will need bespoke PSI in your tyres.
30 all round sounds low at the rear to me. but I offer NO advice on PSI on forums to any one, and my advice always is "buy a pyro"
and if you see 36psi out on track think about slowing down and coming in.
these cars have 500bhp and you are connected to the road via 4 contacts the size of a CD in a 1500kg car.
you can use tech to keep and eye on it, but maybe when you change tyres look into "track connect"
https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/home-auto/track-co...
on a .1 RS I would also monoball the **** out of it now it's fitted with KW race shocks, rubber = bad news for being predictable at limits for hot lapping.
the .2 RS and GT2 RS are more tied down and easier to drive so the pro's say.
Again sorry about the off, but you are OK and the car sounds like it will be ok so that's good news.
I would do a lap drop psi to 31/34 psi to keep the side walls firm, and then do another lap and rebleed off again back to 31/34 then do a 3rd lap and then pyro the tyres which should be another slight bleed off based on the pyro readings, then do two laps re pyro and take some notes to make it quicker in the future to fine a base level, maybe some where like 30.5/33 end point hot who knows.
A Pyro will also then tell you how far your geo's out if you get some crazy readings on the edges.
Always sad news to see an off on a track day :-( so I feel for you there.
my best advice is buy a pyro and sadly try not to listen to too much advice on forums as you have a bespoke car so you will need bespoke PSI in your tyres.
30 all round sounds low at the rear to me. but I offer NO advice on PSI on forums to any one, and my advice always is "buy a pyro"
and if you see 36psi out on track think about slowing down and coming in.
these cars have 500bhp and you are connected to the road via 4 contacts the size of a CD in a 1500kg car.
you can use tech to keep and eye on it, but maybe when you change tyres look into "track connect"
https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/home-auto/track-co...
on a .1 RS I would also monoball the **** out of it now it's fitted with KW race shocks, rubber = bad news for being predictable at limits for hot lapping.
the .2 RS and GT2 RS are more tied down and easier to drive so the pro's say.
Again sorry about the off, but you are OK and the car sounds like it will be ok so that's good news.
I would do a lap drop psi to 31/34 psi to keep the side walls firm, and then do another lap and rebleed off again back to 31/34 then do a 3rd lap and then pyro the tyres which should be another slight bleed off based on the pyro readings, then do two laps re pyro and take some notes to make it quicker in the future to fine a base level, maybe some where like 30.5/33 end point hot who knows.
A Pyro will also then tell you how far your geo's out if you get some crazy readings on the edges.
Edited by Porsche911R on Monday 29th June 15:41
Sorry to hear about your off!
Your experience reminds me of the first Cayman Rs our team raced in VLN many years back. Stock suspension was swapped for KW competition. It initially showed the same issues you describe with being unpredictable on the limit. It took quite a bit of set-up fine tuning to get the best our of the car. Once set-up properly though, it was a real hoot to drive - agile, playful and predictable.
Looks like your unfriendly encounter with the tire wall was caused by sharply deteriorating Cup 2s. It may also be worth checking whether you had any form of pickup on them which could have caused a substantial change in grip levels. Given you pushed hard and did most likely not move off the racing line, it is not very likely though
The old rule applies - after any off it's important to get behind the wheel as quickly as possible - not that that's a hardship
Your experience reminds me of the first Cayman Rs our team raced in VLN many years back. Stock suspension was swapped for KW competition. It initially showed the same issues you describe with being unpredictable on the limit. It took quite a bit of set-up fine tuning to get the best our of the car. Once set-up properly though, it was a real hoot to drive - agile, playful and predictable.
Looks like your unfriendly encounter with the tire wall was caused by sharply deteriorating Cup 2s. It may also be worth checking whether you had any form of pickup on them which could have caused a substantial change in grip levels. Given you pushed hard and did most likely not move off the racing line, it is not very likely though
The old rule applies - after any off it's important to get behind the wheel as quickly as possible - not that that's a hardship
Dr S said:
Sorry to hear about your off!
Looks like your unfriendly encounter with the tire wall was caused by sharply deteriorating Cup 2s. It may also be worth checking whether you had any form of pickup on them which could have caused a substantial change in grip levels. Given you pushed hard and did most likely not move off the racing line, it is not very likely though
I think marbles on the outside of the kerb at the exit of Campus may well have been an issue, once I'd already drifted too far off line.Looks like your unfriendly encounter with the tire wall was caused by sharply deteriorating Cup 2s. It may also be worth checking whether you had any form of pickup on them which could have caused a substantial change in grip levels. Given you pushed hard and did most likely not move off the racing line, it is not very likely though
If I was apportioning blame (I'm not) I'd take 50% of it for not being a proper grown-up and reining myself in the way I claimed I would. I had a 2:47 on my sixth hot lap of the day in a car I don't know at all on a circuit I've not driven in 20 years, having claimed I'd be happy to get under 3:00 on day 1 (I was under 3:00 on lap 1). I got down into the 2:44s, then started to go slower - a key sign that the track was too hot, the tyres were too hot, I was too hot. But instead of backing off 10% and spending the time learning the car and the circuit I kept pushing and paid for it.
The other 50% can be shared between the setup - which I was unconvinced by from the outset - and the conditions. Genuinely astonishing in very fast corners (a real feeling of your balls sucking up into your body going through Blanchimont, but the car never blinked), and great turn in, but unpredictable in medium speed corners. Part of that I think is the lack of torque (or maybe the TC?) meaning that you don't quite have the sensation of the limits of rear grip as you accelerate out. The track temp definitely didn't help either.
Anyway, chalk it up to another learning experience. I've only ever had two contacts with the wall in my whole track history, and both of them came down to failure to manage tyres properly. Tellingly the last one ended my racing "career" - it's a long story, but essentially I ended up doing a race on unsuitable tyres, cooked the brakes and hit the tyre wall on the outside of the Shell hairpin at Oulton at significant speed. I'm not going to let this one put me off. (Although I expect it will put my insurers off...).
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