Buying a Porsche 996

[Hoofy]

Hereward said:

Hoofy said:

...But then I started looking at C4Ss as they cost about £20k... and when you consider that you still need to deal with the above that puts the price at around £25k, I ended up looking at 996 Turbos, purely for their apparent reliability over the N/A engines, m'lud.

Had to chuckle, that process entirely mirrored my mental gymnastics too!

A few years ago, I did similar going from a hot hatch for £5k to a TVR for £25k.

Edit: I just noticed... you actually bought a 996 Turbo. Private sale or trader?

[Hereward]

Hoofy said:

Edit: I just noticed... you actually bought a 996 Turbo. Private sale or trader?

Private. 996 is my era of 911. It was the current model when I had just started working and when the turbo version was released I said to myself that one day I would have one. Luckily their relative unpopularity meant I could afford to. It's a special machine and I think they look fabulous with clean, simple styling.

[Hoofy]

Hereward said:

Hoofy said:

Edit: I just noticed... you actually bought a 996 Turbo. Private sale or trader?

Private. 996 is my era of 911. It was the current model when I had just started working and when the turbo version was released I said to myself that one day I would have one. Luckily their relative unpopularity meant I could afford to. It's a special machine and I think they look fabulous with clean, simple styling.

Similar thoughts to me. Always admired them when they came out but never thought it would be within my price range!

[1602Mark]

jonny996 said:

if you dont have £50K buy the best 996 you can for £25K & put it on the Hartech maintance plan.

Thanks for this. I'm looking at doing exactly this for any potential 996 purchase.

[MDL111]

I love my 996 and apart from replacing a few parts (c 1.8k euros at a garage) it so far hasn’t put a foot wrong and is much more fun to drive than my modern cars. It did cost me c 53k gbp though, so slightly different to a 10k car in terms of maintenance done to it.
Most cars eventually need an engine rebuild if you own them long enough plus obviously all other components replaced over time. And on many sports cars an engine rebuild costs more than on a 996 C2 and the like.

[1602Mark]

So what can one do to protect a healthy 996 and give the best chance to guard against engine woes?

I'm prepared to get my hands dirty and do regular oil and filter changes every 3K miles. I can also keep an eye to make sure the cooling system is in fine fettle by keeping rads free of leaves etc but would a lower temp' thermostat help?

I don't plan on going over 3000rpm until the car is thoroughly warmed or doing short journeys where it doesn't have the chance to warm properly.

What oil is best recommended and what viscosity? Are there any useful additives that aren't just snake oil?

Are higher mileage engines, with a comprehensive maintenance record, less likely to have scoring issues as they'd have most likely shown them by now?

I really like 996 and have been watching the Friends Green Porsche YouTube channel to try and appreciate the kind of problems that can present themselves. I have wanted a 911 for 30+ years and the reality is that the only way I am going to get one is if it's a 996.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice / guidance etc. Mark

1602Mark said:

jonny996 said:

if you dont have £50K buy the best 996 you can for £25K & put it on the Hartech maintance plan.

Thanks for this. I'm looking at doing exactly this for any potential 996 purchase.

I forgot to add that unfortunately Hartech aren't taking on any new cars as part of their maintenance plan for now due to Covid related back-log. Are there any alternatives that anyone can recommend please?

Edited by 1602Mark on Saturday 19th June 16:40

[Hoofy]

1602Mark said:

So what can one do to protect a healthy 996 and give the best chance to guard against engine woes?

From what I've read: the easiest option is to replace the IMS bearing and RMS seal - but they might not need replacing! The cheapest option is to keep an eye on metal in the oil (either check the oil filter or get regular oil tests done at £40 a test, sending the sample away) and having regular services by getting the mechanic to check the RMS for leaks. Oh and have a borescope to check for bore scoring.

Apart from the engine, you'll also need to keep an eye on the suspension and clutch bits (manual box). I think you will also need to see what 2nd gear is like (manual box) as that can pop out of gear if the car is used in anger a lot.

Edit: just found this: https://www.porscheinspections.com/useful-info

I think the reality is that the chances of the engine blowing on 3.4s is tiny (3%?) and 3.6s about 10% but I've never been lucky. Although with that kind of logic, I should play the lottery because I'd probably win the jackpot.

Edited by Hoofy on Saturday 19th June 17:34

[1602Mark]

Do any other UK specialists offer a maintenance warranty like Hartech?

Having checked the history, the engine has been serviced yearly and shows regular oil changes. It also had a major service a couple of weeks ago and there was nothing untoward noted so one would hope all is well. I'll be taking good care in future though for sure.

How much would a clutch be at an independent?

Are factory LSD a rare option? I've read that the Wavetrac is popular.

[Hoofy]

1602Mark said:

Do any other UK specialists offer a maintenance warranty like Hartech?

Having checked the history, the engine has been serviced yearly and shows regular oil changes. It also had a major service a couple of weeks ago and there was nothing untoward noted so one would hope all is well. I'll be taking good care in future though for sure.

How much would a clutch be at an independent?

Are factory LSD a rare option? I've read that the Wavetrac is popular.

Can't answer everything so hopefully someone else will be able to help.

AFAIK, a regular service and oil change isn't enough. The IMS bearing receives no oil as it is a sealed unit and it's when the seal breaks that problems can occur (IIRC petrol can wash away the oil that lubricates the bearing). One option is an uprated IMS bearing. Another is a bearing that receives oil. https://www.revolution-porsche.co.uk/news/ims-bear...

Re clutch costs, google "996 clutch replacement cost".

Edited by Hoofy on Saturday 19th June 20:23

[ATM]

1602Mark said:

jonny996 said:

if you dont have £50K buy the best 996 you can for £25K & put it on the Hartech maintance plan.

Thanks for this. I'm looking at doing exactly this for any potential 996 purchase.

The Hartech maintenance plan only pays a small percentage if engine goes pop. You're still looking at a big bill.

[1602Mark]

Hoofy said:

1602Mark said:

Do any other UK specialists offer a maintenance warranty like Hartech?

Having checked the history, the engine has been serviced yearly and shows regular oil changes. It also had a major service a couple of weeks ago and there was nothing untoward noted so one would hope all is well. I'll be taking good care in future though for sure.

How much would a clutch be at an independent?

Are factory LSD a rare option? I've read that the Wavetrac is popular.

Can't answer everything so hopefully someone else will be able to help.

AFAIK, a regular service and oil change isn't enough. The IMS bearing receives no oil as it is a sealed unit and it's when the seal breaks that problems can occur (IIRC petrol can wash away the oil that lubricates the bearing). One option is an uprated IMS bearing. Another is a bearing that receives oil. https://www.revolution-porsche.co.uk/news/ims-bear...

Re clutch costs, google "996 clutch replacement cost".

Edited by Hoofy on Saturday 19th June 20:23

Just been watching an interesting series of videos by Flat Six Innovations in the US that look at 996/997/987 and bore scoring. Part 6 specifically covers prevention. Certainly a series that seems worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzDerJOdcfI

ATM said:

1602Mark said:

jonny996 said:

if you dont have £50K buy the best 996 you can for £25K & put it on the Hartech maintance plan.

Thanks for this. I'm looking at doing exactly this for any potential 996 purchase.

The Hartech maintenance plan only pays a small percentage if engine goes pop. You're still looking at a big bill.

Unfortunately they're not taking on any more cars into their plan for now anyway, although I appreciate no such plan will cover all potential rebuild costs.

[ATM]

1602Mark said:

Are factory LSD a rare option? I've read that the Wavetrac is popular.

Personally don't see the point. Try your car for a bit before making any decisions on the diff. The whole point to the rear engine layout is traction from the rear wheels. And trust me they grip like stink. As you start to lean on the car you'll feel the rear dig in. I've noticed the odd inside wheel lift and spin but mine has very stiff suspension and roll bars. I can only imagine an lsd helping you getting off the line in 1st or exiting a very tight hairpin type bend which both feel irrelevant to me. If you can get the rear end sliding around at speed then you're a true driving god as these are just so planted from the rear. If anything they need more grip at the front which is why they offer the c4.

[1602Mark]

I was more interested in the effect on value that my seeking to have one from the off. As you say, I want to just drive and learn the car as is before considering any changes. On that note, how do they drive when compared with something like the E46 M3? Is it the old adage of 'slow in, fast out' as was always said about the aircooled models? I'm certainly no driving god, although I do enjoy driving quickly and occasional track days, but am I right to assume they're less forgiving? I do plan on getting some instruction at some point.

[ATM]

1602Mark said:

I was more interested in the effect on value that my seeking to have one from the off. As you say, I want to just drive and learn the car as is before considering any changes. On that note, how do they drive when compared with something like the E46 M3? Is it the old adage of 'slow in, fast out' as was always said about the aircooled models? I'm certainly no driving god, although I do enjoy driving quickly and occasional track days, but am I right to assume they're less forgiving? I do plan on getting some instruction at some point.

I'm no super star driver and I've never had an m3. I did have a v8 powered e46 alongside the 996 for a while and there really is no comparison. OK the v8 was a bit more powerful than the 996 but unless you are deliberately trying to swing the rear end of the 996 it is almost impossible to get it to break out. You can just plant the throttle as far down as you want and it will just dig in and grip. There is some balance required to get the car turning because it won't want to turn in on the throttle but once turned plant it and start to straighten up. It will take a little while for your head to understand the grip available. You naturally get the idea of lifting to turn it because that's almost intuitive. Even the turn in is brutal if you want it to be. Once while demonstrating how much cornering force is available entering a round about with my friend in the passenger seat I turned in that hard I ended up leaving the seat and almost sitting on the hand brake. That's when I knew I should just sell the e46. You just can't compare them. One is a go faster bmw, designed to seat 4 people with shopping and bags and the other is a Porsche.

[Hoofy]

I tried to google this but got no useful result... can you fit a tennis racket in a 911's boot?

[Rotary Potato]

Hoofy said:

I tried to google this but got no useful result... can you fit a tennis racket in a 911's boot?

I haven't tried ... and technically I have a 986 Boxster, not a 996 911 (but I believe they have the same front boot).

With those caveats, I would say yes. It's surprisingly deep, particularly the nearer to the windscreen you get. If it were close, removing the space saver would allow you to place it even nearer the windscreen (and thus an even deeper part of the boot).

Failing that, it'd definitely fit behind the front seats - unless you plan on using the rear seats at the same time as carrying your tennis racket?

[Hoofy]

Rotary Potato said:

Hoofy said:

I tried to google this but got no useful result... can you fit a tennis racket in a 911's boot?

I haven't tried ... and technically I have a 986 Boxster, not a 996 911 (but I believe they have the same front boot).

With those caveats, I would say yes. It's surprisingly deep, particularly the nearer to the windscreen you get. If it were close, removing the space saver would allow you to place it even nearer the windscreen (and thus an even deeper part of the boot).

Failing that, it'd definitely fit behind the front seats - unless you plan on using the rear seats at the same time as carrying your tennis racket?

Thanks. Well, it'd really have to store a tennis bag with assorted kit, really, so if I'm parking in a Tesco car park (near the club) after a match, I don't want to come back to a smashed window and lost kit.

[ATM]

Hoofy said:

Rotary Potato said:

Hoofy said:

I tried to google this but got no useful result... can you fit a tennis racket in a 911's boot?

I haven't tried ... and technically I have a 986 Boxster, not a 996 911 (but I believe they have the same front boot).

With those caveats, I would say yes. It's surprisingly deep, particularly the nearer to the windscreen you get. If it were close, removing the space saver would allow you to place it even nearer the windscreen (and thus an even deeper part of the boot).

Failing that, it'd definitely fit behind the front seats - unless you plan on using the rear seats at the same time as carrying your tennis racket?

Thanks. Well, it'd really have to store a tennis bag with assorted kit, really, so if I'm parking in a Tesco car park (near the club) after a match, I don't want to come back to a smashed window and lost kit.

I didn't think this was a serious question.

If it is then...

I can fit a golf style umbrella in mine which should give you an idea of size. The c2 frunk is bigger than the c4.

[PurpleTurtle]

1602Mark said:

I was more interested in the effect on value that my seeking to have one from the off. As you say, I want to just drive and learn the car as is before considering any changes. On that note, how do they drive when compared with something like the E46 M3? Is it the old adage of 'slow in, fast out' as was always said about the aircooled models? I'm certainly no driving god, although I do enjoy driving quickly and occasional track days, but am I right to assume they're less forgiving? I do plan on getting some instruction at some point.

I had a 996 C2 for a miserable six months. All of the big known faults I had - rear oil seal, cracked expansion tank and it needed a new (recon) gearbox, all within that short space of time. It was all sorted quickly under an indy used warranty via Paragon Porsche, who were very good about it and solved the issues quickly and without question. However they were miles away from me and I dreaded the bills I might end up with out of warranty. I lost all confidence in the reliability of the car.

So I sold it on and bought a nearly new E46 M3 SMG Convertible which I have kept for 15yrs and has been brilliant, needing only consumables and now, at 88k miles, is due a new thermostat.

The Porsche was a dream for me, I'd lusted after a 911 since I was a boy, but the reality of living with it as a daily was far removed from the dream. The BMW has just 'worked' and is at the sweet spot of having some decent tech on it, but not overridden with gadgets that you can't fix it yourself.

I did see an indicated 173mph in the 996 though, which was nice. On the autobahn, naturally!

[1602Mark]

PurpleTurtle said:

1602Mark said:

I was more interested in the effect on value that my seeking to have one from the off. As you say, I want to just drive and learn the car as is before considering any changes. On that note, how do they drive when compared with something like the E46 M3? Is it the old adage of 'slow in, fast out' as was always said about the aircooled models? I'm certainly no driving god, although I do enjoy driving quickly and occasional track days, but am I right to assume they're less forgiving? I do plan on getting some instruction at some point.

I had a 996 C2 for a miserable six months. All of the big known faults I had - rear oil seal, cracked expansion tank and it needed a new (recon) gearbox, all within that short space of time. It was all sorted quickly under an indy used warranty via Paragon Porsche, who were very good about it and solved the issues quickly and without question. However they were miles away from me and I dreaded the bills I might end up with out of warranty. I lost all confidence in the reliability of the car.

So I sold it on and bought a nearly new E46 M3 SMG Convertible which I have kept for 15yrs and has been brilliant, needing only consumables and now, at 88k miles, is due a new thermostat.

The Porsche was a dream for me, I'd lusted after a 911 since I was a boy, but the reality of living with it as a daily was far removed from the dream. The BMW has just 'worked' and is at the sweet spot of having some decent tech on it, but not overridden with gadgets that you can't fix it yourself.

I did see an indicated 173mph in the 996 though, which was nice. On the autobahn, naturally!

I hear what you're saying but I sunk over £20K into 3 engine rebuilds with my old E30 M3. Sometimes we can just be unlucky I guess? I've had a pre purchase inspection done and found a car with an extensive service history. Apart from that there's little more I can do and it's in the lap of the Gods. The only things flagged in the inspection were the rear suspension coffin arms would benefit from replacement within the next couple of thousand miles. Hopefully all will be well obviously but it's a calculated risk and I'm lucky to even be in a position where buying an old 911 is even an option. If the worst happened and it blew up though, it would sting but it wouldn't ruin my life. I would still have a nice home and family life etc. The important stuff. Also, whilst things might go sour, maybe they won't? Maybe it'll be everything I dreamed and more? The E30 M3 had lots of downs but it also had some fantastic highs and my only real regret is that I had to sell it.

Edited by 1602Mark on Tuesday 22 June 20:53