Keep TC on for trackdays in your Porsche?
Discussion
A couple of wet trackdays recently in my 718 made me wonder what the correct strategy is. It will depend on the model and driver experience, so I’ll state mine:
718 GTS
20 trackdays
Sport+, stability control ON, sometimes half-off (“Dynamic” setting, i.e. press button once, but don’t keep it pressed 3 secs to turn completely off)
In a slower car (MX5 NC which I used for trackdays before the Cayman) I was happy to turn TC off, also because it was rather awful if on. However in the 718 the system is better and risks higher so I keep it as above.
Thoughts anyone?
718 GTS
20 trackdays
Sport+, stability control ON, sometimes half-off (“Dynamic” setting, i.e. press button once, but don’t keep it pressed 3 secs to turn completely off)
In a slower car (MX5 NC which I used for trackdays before the Cayman) I was happy to turn TC off, also because it was rather awful if on. However in the 718 the system is better and risks higher so I keep it as above.
Thoughts anyone?
I always leave Traction Control on ...
I have done Ice Driving and I would like to think that I can catch a car before it throws me off, but the simple fact is that TC works faster than my brain can ...
It must also be said that in Sports Mode the Traction Control does give more leeway, and Porsche calibrate it extremely well. If you are driving very fast (and nicely) you may mot even see the flickering light. If you aren't and you do see it, you need it
To be fair, the learning is in the experience and there is nothing to lose from a helping hand so long as you learn form it ...
I have done Ice Driving and I would like to think that I can catch a car before it throws me off, but the simple fact is that TC works faster than my brain can ...
It must also be said that in Sports Mode the Traction Control does give more leeway, and Porsche calibrate it extremely well. If you are driving very fast (and nicely) you may mot even see the flickering light. If you aren't and you do see it, you need it
To be fair, the learning is in the experience and there is nothing to lose from a helping hand so long as you learn form it ...
I agree completely with Chris here.
The Porsche systems are pretty good and generally tidy you up (if needed) and only intervene to save you from yourself, rather than being more nannying in the way that some other manufacturers' systems can be.
I'd say it also partially depends on your driving style. If you tend to be naturally neat and precise, the Porsche systems won't slow you down if you leave them on . If you are a bit more lairy, the systems may slow you down more.
Note that the above is based on my experience of Porsche's mid-engined cars rather than their rear-engined cars, and my other manufacturer references points are Audi (leave them off) and BMW (it depends, but certainly put them in their most relaxed setting as a minimum).
The Porsche systems are pretty good and generally tidy you up (if needed) and only intervene to save you from yourself, rather than being more nannying in the way that some other manufacturers' systems can be.
I'd say it also partially depends on your driving style. If you tend to be naturally neat and precise, the Porsche systems won't slow you down if you leave them on . If you are a bit more lairy, the systems may slow you down more.
Note that the above is based on my experience of Porsche's mid-engined cars rather than their rear-engined cars, and my other manufacturer references points are Audi (leave them off) and BMW (it depends, but certainly put them in their most relaxed setting as a minimum).
Isn't it PSM ?
Either way ... I select sport mode and generally leave the rest on ....
There have been occasions when I struggled for grip out of tight corners but I don't now if switching stability off would have made it any better ? The car has an LSD so I guess the throttle would be managed at the limit of slip ...
Either way ... I select sport mode and generally leave the rest on ....
There have been occasions when I struggled for grip out of tight corners but I don't now if switching stability off would have made it any better ? The car has an LSD so I guess the throttle would be managed at the limit of slip ...
ChrisW. said:
Isn't it PSM ?
Either way ... I select sport mode and generally leave the rest on ....
There have been occasions when I struggled for grip out of tight corners but I don't now if switching stability off would have made it any better ? The car has an LSD so I guess the throttle would be managed at the limit of slip ...
It is PSM I had in mind.Either way ... I select sport mode and generally leave the rest on ....
There have been occasions when I struggled for grip out of tight corners but I don't now if switching stability off would have made it any better ? The car has an LSD so I guess the throttle would be managed at the limit of slip ...
So my settings are Sport+, and PSM on or partially off, but not fully off
I can't recall my GT4 having a Sport Plus ... is this just for PDK equipped cars ?
PSM is a system that learns, so if it needs to intervene it will look to intervene ... if if doesn't need to intervene it re-learns the parameters and gives a more free rein but it's still there at a point.
If you disconnect PSM I think it stays out until both front wheel abs sensors are operational for a certain time and switches itself back on ...
So driving with soft hands (which does not need to be slow) and leaving PSM on is a good way of getting the best out of a car which is not a race car.
In fact the early GT3R's from twenty years ago did not even have abs ...
With everything off and driving roughly (which is showboating) whilst you need quick hands it is generally speaking, not fast. Rally stages and ice driving excepted where provoking the attitude of the car on a relatively low grip surface can be the fastest way around a corner ...
PSM is a system that learns, so if it needs to intervene it will look to intervene ... if if doesn't need to intervene it re-learns the parameters and gives a more free rein but it's still there at a point.
If you disconnect PSM I think it stays out until both front wheel abs sensors are operational for a certain time and switches itself back on ...
So driving with soft hands (which does not need to be slow) and leaving PSM on is a good way of getting the best out of a car which is not a race car.
In fact the early GT3R's from twenty years ago did not even have abs ...
With everything off and driving roughly (which is showboating) whilst you need quick hands it is generally speaking, not fast. Rally stages and ice driving excepted where provoking the attitude of the car on a relatively low grip surface can be the fastest way around a corner ...
Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 26th November 13:56
It depends what you wish to achieve.
If you want the absolute fastest lap time then switch it all off.
If you want to enjoy your driving knowing that the systems will most likely stop you from binning it - leave it on.
If you have a system that allows some slip but will save you, leave that on and have some more fun.
Ultimately there's only one way to truly master the car though....... balls and skill required and not everybody has that.
If you want the absolute fastest lap time then switch it all off.
If you want to enjoy your driving knowing that the systems will most likely stop you from binning it - leave it on.
If you have a system that allows some slip but will save you, leave that on and have some more fun.
Ultimately there's only one way to truly master the car though....... balls and skill required and not everybody has that.
There is rather more in my view.
Every driver has their own skill set and limits.
Every driver needs to learn ... exprience and then if you wish to take it further, qualified coaching is essential.
If you wish to race you will then need to learn race craft ... more experience.
There is only one safe way to set about gaining the experience and that is by leaving PSM on, taking tuition and good advice, and when the the time is right you may see some benefit from turning the PSM off ... building speeds incrementally.
Consistency is extremely important in the learning process, it's the probing at these limits where the learning can safely be found.
IMHO !
Every driver has their own skill set and limits.
Every driver needs to learn ... exprience and then if you wish to take it further, qualified coaching is essential.
If you wish to race you will then need to learn race craft ... more experience.
There is only one safe way to set about gaining the experience and that is by leaving PSM on, taking tuition and good advice, and when the the time is right you may see some benefit from turning the PSM off ... building speeds incrementally.
Consistency is extremely important in the learning process, it's the probing at these limits where the learning can safely be found.
IMHO !
It’s personal preference, comfort level, confidence and experience.
Porsche sports cars chassis (and many other sports cars] are developed on a baseline of systems OFF as they have to be able to work and not be spooky in situation beyond the operable parameters of the systems. But then you find that most of the fast lap times… N’ring records are set with systems ON, or in their sportiest setting.
Porsche systems calibration is standout in the industry… and really only triggers if something really detrimental is imminent. The GT cars in particular allow the driver quite a lot of room to play, and then the intervention is intuitive and progressive.
For GT cars.. aside from drive modes starting in the 992 gen… you just have ESC OFF and ESC+TC OFF for PSM control.
ESC OFF is useful on dry tracks to stop excessive interference from rear brake assisted PTV and EBD.
ESC+TC OFF gives as above and also complete control of the throttle and torque demand applied to the driven wheels.
Personally, to date, I either leave all systems On or sometimes ESC OFF dependent on the course and conditions.
Sport button in GT4 (renamed Auto-Blip) does not officially change any driving system characteristic other enabling rev-matching and manually overriding 3rd Rad thermostat…
Porsche sports cars chassis (and many other sports cars] are developed on a baseline of systems OFF as they have to be able to work and not be spooky in situation beyond the operable parameters of the systems. But then you find that most of the fast lap times… N’ring records are set with systems ON, or in their sportiest setting.
Porsche systems calibration is standout in the industry… and really only triggers if something really detrimental is imminent. The GT cars in particular allow the driver quite a lot of room to play, and then the intervention is intuitive and progressive.
For GT cars.. aside from drive modes starting in the 992 gen… you just have ESC OFF and ESC+TC OFF for PSM control.
ESC OFF is useful on dry tracks to stop excessive interference from rear brake assisted PTV and EBD.
ESC+TC OFF gives as above and also complete control of the throttle and torque demand applied to the driven wheels.
Personally, to date, I either leave all systems On or sometimes ESC OFF dependent on the course and conditions.
Sport button in GT4 (renamed Auto-Blip) does not officially change any driving system characteristic other enabling rev-matching and manually overriding 3rd Rad thermostat…
Thanks T,
So it is ESC and TC.
Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ?
I remember once being at Donington with a chap who had just bought a Turbo S and invited me for a passenger ride. He was doing 1.24's and asked if I thought he should switch off the stability systems he would go faster.
My reply was that in my view it was the Porsche stability systems that were keeping him out of trouble and I would not get in the car with him without them. It was amazing how much they were doing. I think he was flat on the throttle or flat on the brake, with no skill or understanding of what was really happening ...
Needless to say, I didn't want to go back out with him. The car was doing everything. But it was a very interesting experience ...
So it is ESC and TC.
Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ?
I remember once being at Donington with a chap who had just bought a Turbo S and invited me for a passenger ride. He was doing 1.24's and asked if I thought he should switch off the stability systems he would go faster.
My reply was that in my view it was the Porsche stability systems that were keeping him out of trouble and I would not get in the car with him without them. It was amazing how much they were doing. I think he was flat on the throttle or flat on the brake, with no skill or understanding of what was really happening ...
Needless to say, I didn't want to go back out with him. The car was doing everything. But it was a very interesting experience ...
ChrisW. said:
There is only one safe way to set about gaining the experience and that is by leaving PSM on, taking tuition and good advice, and when the the time is right you may see some benefit from turning the PSM off ... building speeds incrementally.
I'd have to disagree with that. It's imo definitely not that leaving PSM is the only safe way to gain that experience but it certainly is a useful way to do so. The tuition and advice bit plus copious amounts of time at the wheel that really makes the difference. As TDT says later, I'd say it's very much a personal preference thing coupled with the gen of car. The 991s onwards are very very well calibrated to work with PSM/ESC on. The 997s are ime not quite so seamless.....The TC/ESC is a lot more permissive in GT cars in its programming than in the non GT stuff. I recall Walter Rohrl saying a good driver shouldn’t be any slower with it turned on.
That said I am a ham fisted oaf and have had a few moments with it turned on, and will be always leaving it on, I have still had quite a bit of slip angle with it on and suspect it saved me a few times.
That said I am a ham fisted oaf and have had a few moments with it turned on, and will be always leaving it on, I have still had quite a bit of slip angle with it on and suspect it saved me a few times.
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