Keep TC on for trackdays in your Porsche?
Discussion
I have done lots of track miles in many models of Porsche and the car will be much quicker and better to drive with esc off and you learn better car control but it is a good aid on a track that is easy to bend the car on whilst learning.
When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it.
When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it.
ChrisW. said:
Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ?
I believe in non GT cars an ABS event will turn the traction control back on, whereas in GT cars when it’s switched all the way off it doesn’t come back regardless of ABS activation. Think I read this in the owners manual. TDT said:
Caddyshack said:
When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it.
A lot of value in this if you’re brave enough. Don’t have to go fast, but great for learning about the car and yourself.
I did a track day with Greystone at Donington in June, very busy until it rained there was me and an MP12 4C out there, everyone else went in
Only time I’ve really driven my GT3 with the systems off is at the PEC on their Performance Day with an instructor (who I have also used privately). Without a doubt the car has a different feel and I think you learn more about your driving with it off but I am nowhere near a good enough driver to contemplate taking it off on track proper.
I raced a Cayman, in Class B.
For example.
Anglesey in torrential rain with all systems off I was the fastest car on the track for many laps, BUT, driver error saw me spin at Church.
With the traction switched on the car was circa a second slower per lap.
At Snett 300 the difference between systems on, and systems off is @1.5 seconds in the dry.
This is racing though. The only reason I've posted this here is to show that the car can go quicker with it all off.
The risk you run however..... For what, where track days are concerned isn't a fat lot of gain. You're there to enjoy the track, the car and have fun.
For example.
Anglesey in torrential rain with all systems off I was the fastest car on the track for many laps, BUT, driver error saw me spin at Church.
With the traction switched on the car was circa a second slower per lap.
At Snett 300 the difference between systems on, and systems off is @1.5 seconds in the dry.
This is racing though. The only reason I've posted this here is to show that the car can go quicker with it all off.
The risk you run however..... For what, where track days are concerned isn't a fat lot of gain. You're there to enjoy the track, the car and have fun.
Rojibo said:
ChrisW. said:
Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ?
I believe in non GT cars an ABS event will turn the traction control back on, whereas in GT cars when it’s switched all the way off it doesn’t come back regardless of ABS activation. Think I read this in the owners manual. 993rsr said:
TDT said:
Caddyshack said:
When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it.
A lot of value in this if you’re brave enough. Don’t have to go fast, but great for learning about the car and yourself. I did a track day with Greystone at Donington in June, very busy until it rained there was me and an MP12 4C out there, everyone else went in
ChrisW. said:
I can't recall my GT4 having a Sport Plus ... is this just for PDK equipped cars ?
My 718 GTS has PDK but I thought the difference between Sport and Sport+ was about more than just gearbox operation (and btw there’s definitely a difference in that).Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 26th November 13:56
For instance, comjng out of corners, particularly really slow ones, if I step in the throttle too heavily, it feels to me like in Sport the car is using brakes to keep traction, while Sport+ does not give more power. I could be completely wrong though.
In the later Porsches ESC & TC will only harshly interfere If the driver is not on par with his inputs. If you are doing the right things interference is minimal. I understand everyone who leaves it on as a safeguard. Earlier cars (997 etc.) will go through rear brakes quite excessively more wear on later cars, but not too bad.
The problem is you need to notice when the system is interfering and/or saving you - many people I see don't have any real feeling for the limits of the car as they get constantly saved by the system without realizing it - and would not last a single corner without the systems (possibly like the Turbo S jockey that was mentioned here).
I completely agree with caddyshack regarding the wet - pick a save corner and have a play with the limits of the car. Speeds are much slower, lower forces - all giving you much more time to control the car.
That aside, drift type trainings in the wet or on ice are best to increase car control skills and program that muscle memory!
The problem is you need to notice when the system is interfering and/or saving you - many people I see don't have any real feeling for the limits of the car as they get constantly saved by the system without realizing it - and would not last a single corner without the systems (possibly like the Turbo S jockey that was mentioned here).
I completely agree with caddyshack regarding the wet - pick a save corner and have a play with the limits of the car. Speeds are much slower, lower forces - all giving you much more time to control the car.
That aside, drift type trainings in the wet or on ice are best to increase car control skills and program that muscle memory!
So an interesting variety of suggestions and thoughts here ... there is no one-size fits all ... and there are relatively safe ways of "taking a flyer" 
Interestingly I know a lot of racers who tell me they turn ESC / PSM (depending upon the generation of car) back on in the wet, and as TNT mentioned, the fastest Nurburgring times appear to be set with stability controls on ... but driven by the most experienced drivers who are clearly given the tools to do their job.
'An intriguing question ...
Interestingly I know a lot of racers who tell me they turn ESC / PSM (depending upon the generation of car) back on in the wet, and as TNT mentioned, the fastest Nurburgring times appear to be set with stability controls on ... but driven by the most experienced drivers who are clearly given the tools to do their job.
'An intriguing question ...
I agree with Chris !
I don't do many track days but Ron who owns RSR at Spa told me politely that - there at least - if he saw any of us running in the wet/dry conditions without them on he would ask us to leave as we would just end up ruining everyone's day. He said the Porsche ones are very good and leave a fair
I still have another 8 seconds to find there and it's nothing to do with PSM/ESC.
I am also told to turn them off for hill climbing but I can tell you that they have helped me enormously in the wet you can feel the cut in - it is quite late in my GT4 and I have to be really overdriving to feel it.
Mind you I am still on the same rear discs the car came with after 4 days at Spa and three at Silverstone and 20k miles so I am probably not trying hard enough at all and may not be the best yard stick!
Snowy
I don't do many track days but Ron who owns RSR at Spa told me politely that - there at least - if he saw any of us running in the wet/dry conditions without them on he would ask us to leave as we would just end up ruining everyone's day. He said the Porsche ones are very good and leave a fair
I still have another 8 seconds to find there and it's nothing to do with PSM/ESC.
I am also told to turn them off for hill climbing but I can tell you that they have helped me enormously in the wet you can feel the cut in - it is quite late in my GT4 and I have to be really overdriving to feel it.
Mind you I am still on the same rear discs the car came with after 4 days at Spa and three at Silverstone and 20k miles so I am probably not trying hard enough at all and may not be the best yard stick!
Snowy
Not sure how many layers of stuff my 997.1 GT3 actually has.
IME for wet track use, I leave TC on. I also leave engine in normal mode, not sport, as the latter does increase allowable slip angles.
For dry tracks, I tend to believe (could be wrong) everything plays nicer with TC off. (I have a Guards Transmission LSD.)Now IIRC, there is still some residual TC on even then.
If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off.
IME for wet track use, I leave TC on. I also leave engine in normal mode, not sport, as the latter does increase allowable slip angles.
For dry tracks, I tend to believe (could be wrong) everything plays nicer with TC off. (I have a Guards Transmission LSD.)Now IIRC, there is still some residual TC on even then.
If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off.
Digga said:
If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off.
Uh....in the 997 isn't it just a sports exhaust thing that is mainly irrelevant high revs rather than sport throttle?Digga said:
Not sure how many layers of stuff my 997.1 GT3 actually has.
IME for wet track use, I leave TC on. I also leave engine in normal mode, not sport, as the latter does increase allowable slip angles.
For dry tracks, I tend to believe (could be wrong) everything plays nicer with TC off. (I have a Guards Transmission LSD.)Now IIRC, there is still some residual TC on even then.
If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off.
Dry track the limits are higher but a lot more energy at work, when it does let go it can also snap back harder in the dry. The wet is the place to learn car control as it all happens at lower speeds and comes back much slower.IME for wet track use, I leave TC on. I also leave engine in normal mode, not sport, as the latter does increase allowable slip angles.
For dry tracks, I tend to believe (could be wrong) everything plays nicer with TC off. (I have a Guards Transmission LSD.)Now IIRC, there is still some residual TC on even then.
If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off.
911's have a reputation but once you understand them they tend to be easier to slide than most other cars.... if you lift off the front tucks in and the rear goes light to increase the slide, if you use throttle the weight goes to the back and the grip returns. If you understeer then you have to fight the logic of adding more steering angle and actually wind off the lock and the grip returns, tyres work best in a straight line.
The one below was a lift on the way in to make the rear light and the front tuck, wait for the rear to swing and then feather the throttle to keep the slide going. It doesn't need much steering angle as the throttle does that. Eventually you can bury the throttle, unwind the lock and it will drive out of the slide. It is simple but not easy and just takes practice.
Caddyshack said:
Dry track the limits are higher but a lot more energy at work, when it does let go it can also snap back harder in the dry. The wet is the place to learn car control as it all happens at lower speeds and comes back much slower.
911's have a reputation but once you understand them they tend to be easier to slide than most other cars.... if you lift off the front tucks in and the rear goes light to increase the slide, if you use throttle the weight goes to the back and the grip returns. If you understeer then you have to fight the logic of adding more steering angle and actually wind off the lock and the grip returns, tyres work best in a straight line.
The one below was a lift on the way in to make the rear light and the front tuck, wait for the rear to swing and then feather the throttle to keep the slide going. It doesn't need much steering angle as the throttle does that. Eventually you can bury the throttle, unwind the lock and it will drive out of the slide. It is simple but not easy and just takes practice.
Very simple once you know how to use the mass of the engine. Did loads of limit handling before I started track days 25+ years ago. 911's have a reputation but once you understand them they tend to be easier to slide than most other cars.... if you lift off the front tucks in and the rear goes light to increase the slide, if you use throttle the weight goes to the back and the grip returns. If you understeer then you have to fight the logic of adding more steering angle and actually wind off the lock and the grip returns, tyres work best in a straight line.
The one below was a lift on the way in to make the rear light and the front tuck, wait for the rear to swing and then feather the throttle to keep the slide going. It doesn't need much steering angle as the throttle does that. Eventually you can bury the throttle, unwind the lock and it will drive out of the slide. It is simple but not easy and just takes practice.
I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong.
I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK.
Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened.
We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day.
I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though.
I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK.
Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened.
We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day.
I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though.
Edited by Caddyshack on Monday 28th November 15:21
Caddyshack said:
I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong.
Thoroughly agree, only by practicing over the limit car control (with all systems off) can you develop real driving skills.It's telling to me that when someone posts up a crash video involving oversteer there's usually a layman's inquest into every possible reason why the car might have lost grip - the conditions, the tyres, too much throttle, ad infinitum. Yet in many cases if they knew how to control the car over the limit of grip then they'd simply have collected it up and continued off down the road.
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