Polite Haggling - Advice
Discussion
HTP99 said:
Also why are you even entertaining this car if you believe it is £5k too much?
That was my point, why with all the 911's for sale, is it this one? Miles away, not got Porsche service history and £5k over priced? So what is appealing about it?
To be honest, you sound like a pain in the arse customer (
meant in the nicest way and sort of joking) for a start you are wanting to pay £5k less? Are you going to forfit any warranty for that sort of drop and take it trade? You are also presuming the car is mint if you are making offers over the phone, yet it is 11 years old, so expectations probably a bit too high.
When you get it all the way home, and start to find some niggles, which you will find on an 11 year old 911, and they say run it back so we can take a look, will you just nip it up there?
If it is £5k over market value there are obviously lots of cars out there for less, buy one of those, and from a specialist nearer or private with OPC warranty.
991 prices I have been tracking, they are starting to fall, An 11 year old car should be £45k now, pre Covid 991.1 were this, so be careful. It is the start of summer, far less cars for sale and prices firmer because of it.
The reality is, most of the cars for sale have been for sale for a long time now, because they were too expensive 6-12 months ago, and certainly are now.
There have been some 60-70k mile Carrera S PDK cars for mid to high 30s for sale, but they sell quickly. Paying £15-20k more is always going to smart if you want out.
The problem is that the OP’s starting price is too low - near 10% off. That'll be eating into their profit and I'm sure the OP will want a warranty, the odd jobs fixed before delivery, a detail and the full customer experience. They're also likely to complain within 30 days after purchase and threaten cancellation/refusal of the car.
The op might be able to get some off but quoting WBAC and trade prices will only get their backs up and make a potential deal fractious.
Best to look at a cheaper car and pass on this one. If you can afford it, try getting a longer warranty, a full service, detail etc. and work with them - they might buy the car back off you if you decide to sell in the future.
The op might be able to get some off but quoting WBAC and trade prices will only get their backs up and make a potential deal fractious.
Best to look at a cheaper car and pass on this one. If you can afford it, try getting a longer warranty, a full service, detail etc. and work with them - they might buy the car back off you if you decide to sell in the future.
Dimebars said:
Why are folk comparing WBAC and the like (Apples) with dealer and cars for sale prices (Pears)
They aren't comparable in the slightest
It is mad that some do this, what WBAC may pay for a car has little bearing on what a) a dealer will have paid for the car and b) what a dealer should advertise the car for. They aren't comparable in the slightest
HTP99 said:
Dimebars said:
Why are folk comparing WBAC and the like (Apples) with dealer and cars for sale prices (Pears)
They aren't comparable in the slightest
It is mad that some do this, what WBAC may pay for a car has little bearing on what a) a dealer will have paid for the car and b) what a dealer should advertise the car for. They aren't comparable in the slightest
If there is a large delta you are taking more risk.
It is a loose indicator of immediate value in the market.
I also find it useful to identify where dealer prices are clearly
WBAC bases its prices on what dealers will pay at their auctions, most dealers don't want to buy an 11 year old 911 through an auction, why is it being put through an auction when good cars are snapped up by dealers who find it hard to buy stock direct from owners?
These cars can easily need £5k, or more, to get them ready to retail, and may need another grand or two in bits doing once the new customer has bought it.
I only just read back your reply and saw it is a 991.2 Carrera S.
50k miles, and £55k.
Looking on autotrader there are only 6 991.2 Carrera S PDK cars under £60k and 5 of those are cabs.
The only coupe is at Invictus, the white one at £58k.
All the others are between £65-71k.
So, the £55k asking seems a bit of a bargain.
But call him and say you only think it is worth £50k and report back. You never know?
These cars can easily need £5k, or more, to get them ready to retail, and may need another grand or two in bits doing once the new customer has bought it.
I only just read back your reply and saw it is a 991.2 Carrera S.
50k miles, and £55k.
Looking on autotrader there are only 6 991.2 Carrera S PDK cars under £60k and 5 of those are cabs.
The only coupe is at Invictus, the white one at £58k.
All the others are between £65-71k.
So, the £55k asking seems a bit of a bargain.
But call him and say you only think it is worth £50k and report back. You never know?
HTP99 said:
Dimebars said:
Why are folk comparing WBAC and the like (Apples) with dealer and cars for sale prices (Pears)
They aren't comparable in the slightest
It is mad that some do this, what WBAC may pay for a car has little bearing on what a) a dealer will have paid for the car and b) what a dealer should advertise the car for. They aren't comparable in the slightest
For dealers I work on WBAC plus 10-15% as a ball part starting figure.
MB140 said:
Yes I agree when purchasing from a dealer. I might have started this wbac stuff off but I was talking about a private sale Alfa Romeo and a private seller asking for more than a main dealer and what WBAC will offer.
For dealers I work on WBAC plus 10-15% as a ball part starting figure.
For a new car or one under warranty still maybe. For dealers I work on WBAC plus 10-15% as a ball part starting figure.
But WBAC look at what cars are selling for at auction and work on adding 5% at auction.
So, say that car is £30k at wbac.
It should fetch £31500 hammer prices plus fees. That covers transporatation, running the auction etc. and should leave around 2-3% profit. It's a numbers game and they can get stock for their dealerships, pretty good model.
The trader who paid £31500 would hope to do £600-1000 of prep work, wheel refurb, sorting any paint etc. So £32500.
If he sticks it up for £35k he will have to pay vat on the difference, so 20% on the £3500 margin. Leaving £2800, take off the £700 vat, so £2100 profit.
Obviously has to stick a warranty on that too. But would hope that warranty averages around £500 per car over the year. Leaving around £1600-2100.
Sticking 15% onto a £30k WBAC would leave the dealer with around £200 profit to £300 loss after prep work and warranty cover.
10% is simply never going to happen.
Edited by Ed.Neumann on Monday 9th June 12:41
Johnson897210 said:
HTP99 said:
Dimebars said:
Why are folk comparing WBAC and the like (Apples) with dealer and cars for sale prices (Pears)
They aren't comparable in the slightest
It is mad that some do this, what WBAC may pay for a car has little bearing on what a) a dealer will have paid for the car and b) what a dealer should advertise the car for. They aren't comparable in the slightest
If there is a large delta you are taking more risk.
That's an insane expectation, especially at this price point and with this brand.
Johnson897210 said:
It is a loose indicator of immediate value in the market.
WBAC prices are an indication of what WBAC would pay for a car. Not what the value of a car is.Here's an (extreme) example:
A Ford Sierra Cosworth sold a couple of weeks ago for just under £20k at Iconic Auctions. Put it into WBAC and they'll give a few hundred pounds for it.
Now, a Porsche isn't a specialised as a classic Sierra, but the principle is the same - it's not WBAC's target type of vehicle, so their valuation is lower.
Muzzer79 said:
You expect to be able to align your purchase price with WBAC in case you need to get out of it?
For clarity I'm not saying I'd expect dealer value and wbac to align, else there is something wrong with their business plan, or the car.Johnson897210 said:
It is a loose indicator of immediate value in the market.
WBAC prices are an indication of what WBAC would pay for a car. Not what the value of a car is.The delta is however a useful guide .
ETA: and no doubt you can always find edge cases with unusual stock.
But in the main if there is a huge difference between dealer value and trade (wbac) you are taking a much higher risk if you did need an immediate exit.
Edited by Johnson897210 on Monday 9th June 13:05
Last time I bought a car I was looking at several advertised at different dealers. I took the WBAC values of each and compared to dealer RRPs, some were clearly overpriced based on auction value, it was useful to weed these out. As well as being less risky it means you don't get overcharged, not to mention is a great metric for trade ins. No wonder dealers hate it and keep trying to tell us it is nonsense.
Johnson897210 said:
But in the main if there is a huge difference between dealer value and trade (wbac) you are taking a much higher risk if you did need an immediate exit.
That risk is kind-of par for the course when buying this sort of brand and this sort of price point.The risk for the dealer is higher because tied-up cash, prep, tax, overheads and comeback repercussions are all higher on a Porsche than a Focus. Therefore the margin is higher.
I don't think you can look at an (on-paper) £10-£15k margin and decide that is too much and the car is therefore over-priced.
You can only compare to similar others on the market and what they're selling for.
Muzzer79 said:
Johnson897210 said:
But in the main if there is a huge difference between dealer value and trade (wbac) you are taking a much higher risk if you did need an immediate exit.
That risk is kind-of par for the course when buying this sort of brand and this sort of price point.The risk for the dealer is higher because tied-up cash, prep, tax, overheads and comeback repercussions are all higher on a Porsche than a Focus. Therefore the margin is higher.
[b]I don't think you can look at an (on-paper) £10-£15k margin and decide that is too much and the car is therefore over-priced.
You can only compare to similar others on the market and what they're selling for.[/b]
May as well go in and say my mate bought one for blahhhh for all the use it or quoting a WBAC price will do, because, no matter what, you ain t buying one anywhere close to what they are getting them at.
Ohh and they don t care what flavour your financial soup is a month after your leave their premises.
Just go in, be nice and ask nicely and that’s always the best approach, referring to this, that and the other will just get their back up I’d guess.
Ohh and they don t care what flavour your financial soup is a month after your leave their premises.
Just go in, be nice and ask nicely and that’s always the best approach, referring to this, that and the other will just get their back up I’d guess.
Johnson897210 said:
^ not really interested in what the dealer paid for it though. Only interested in what it is now worth in the market.
But you are interested in what they paid for it, which is why you're looking up WBAC prices.The value in the market is measured by what cars are selling for, not what they are being bought for.
You cannot expect to buy a car retail and then get out of it for anywhere close to that if you need to sell quickly.
You cannot expect to buy a car for anywhere near trade money to mitigate the risk of needing to sell quickly.
The only exceptions to this are perhaps at the very cheap end of the market, where the value of the margin is small or the very high end of the market, where some premium cars attract overs or similar.
But not for £55k Porsches.
I called a dealer re a car a few months ago, albeit it was a £15k car not a £50k car. I explained why I thought it was a 13k car. I actually asked the dealer why they thought it was a £15 k car. I explained I would travel with a view to buying at £13k. They said no. I looked on autotrader a week or so later and it was £14 k. I just went no call no appointment and dropped in. I looked at the car did a test drive and said I would buy at £13k. They said no on the day but next day by phone, they called me and said yes.
I felt not good about the deal and after sleeping on it said no. It's still for sale today about 2 months on.
I felt not good about the deal and after sleeping on it said no. It's still for sale today about 2 months on.
cliffords said:
I called a dealer re a car a few months ago, albeit it was a £15k car not a £50k car. I explained why I thought it was a 13k car. I actually asked the dealer why they thought it was a £15 k car. I explained I would travel with a view to buying at £13k. They said no. I looked on autotrader a week or so later and it was £14 k. I just went no call no appointment and dropped in. I looked at the car did a test drive and said I would buy at £13k. They said no on the day but next day by phone, they called me and said yes.
I felt not good about the deal and after sleeping on it said no. It's still for sale today about 2 months on.
So you offered £13k on a £15k car, the dealer agreed and then you backed out of it?I felt not good about the deal and after sleeping on it said no. It's still for sale today about 2 months on.
Why?
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