Anyone heard of SystemST - PCCB alternative
Discussion
One of the more useful things I discovered at Ragley today was the existance of a company called Surface Transforms (www.systemst.co.uk). They were showing a 996 GT2 which had SystemST carbon ceramic brake rotors fitted as a replacement for PCCBs.
Price quoted was in the region of £1600 a corner which is clearly a lot cheaper than PCCBs. Couldn't get much info. on Porsche testing/experience as yet, though the product is apparently available as an option on Koenigsegg's
They can be fitted with std. PCCB calipers and pads. Very tempting
Price quoted was in the region of £1600 a corner which is clearly a lot cheaper than PCCBs. Couldn't get much info. on Porsche testing/experience as yet, though the product is apparently available as an option on Koenigsegg's
They can be fitted with std. PCCB calipers and pads. Very tempting
Craig, good to speak to you today. It was my car you saw fitted with the ST Carbon Ceramic discs at Ragley Hall.
The product seemed to generate a lot of genuine interest from concerned and aggrieved owners of PCCB equipped cars (including some 997 GT3/RS owners who still have concerns over the durability of the V3 PCCBs fitted to these cars )
From my point of view, if I didn't think the product was up to the job (both from a safety and performance standpoint) I'd most certainly not have put my hand in my pocket and volunteered to be a "guinea pig" (and without wishing to speak out of turn, or indeed on 993RSRs behalf) I'd be surprised if he'd even consider fitting them to his considerably quicker CGT if he had any misgivings as to their suitability for the job, bearing in mind their intended use on his car.
The difference in steering response and (suspension damping) since fitting the discs to my car late last week has been a genuine eye opener for me. So much so, that had I appreciated the difference they made to the car prior to their failure, I may have considered pursueing Porsche GB a lot more vehemently for a replacement set as a "goodwill gesture" when the originals failed less than 1000 miles after being given the OK by Reading.
The steel replacements may provide a cheap (ish) and durable (ish) resolution to the problems with the original PCCBs, but like the 997 GT3/RS (which was designed around the PCCB system originally) the 996 GT2 seems to benefit massively from the reduction in unsprung weight that the original PCCBs allowed.
The ST disc assemblies get very close to matching the weight reduction of the original PCCB but with the addded advantage of greatly improved durability and longevity.
I think I mentioned to you that I'm still bedding the discs in (and that this may take up to 1000 miles)
So far the the increase in initial bite has been a vast improvement over the previous steel discs I've been using as a stopgap.
I'm told that the stopping power will improve further as the faces of the discs gain their full transfer layer and the pad and disc faces bed in to each other.
The brakes on this car have been a major issue since its purchase last November,I'm hoping that the ST discs will finally solve the problem once and for all.
I'll keep you updated on their performance once the bedding in procedure has been completed.
The product seemed to generate a lot of genuine interest from concerned and aggrieved owners of PCCB equipped cars (including some 997 GT3/RS owners who still have concerns over the durability of the V3 PCCBs fitted to these cars )
From my point of view, if I didn't think the product was up to the job (both from a safety and performance standpoint) I'd most certainly not have put my hand in my pocket and volunteered to be a "guinea pig" (and without wishing to speak out of turn, or indeed on 993RSRs behalf) I'd be surprised if he'd even consider fitting them to his considerably quicker CGT if he had any misgivings as to their suitability for the job, bearing in mind their intended use on his car.
The difference in steering response and (suspension damping) since fitting the discs to my car late last week has been a genuine eye opener for me. So much so, that had I appreciated the difference they made to the car prior to their failure, I may have considered pursueing Porsche GB a lot more vehemently for a replacement set as a "goodwill gesture" when the originals failed less than 1000 miles after being given the OK by Reading.
The steel replacements may provide a cheap (ish) and durable (ish) resolution to the problems with the original PCCBs, but like the 997 GT3/RS (which was designed around the PCCB system originally) the 996 GT2 seems to benefit massively from the reduction in unsprung weight that the original PCCBs allowed.
The ST disc assemblies get very close to matching the weight reduction of the original PCCB but with the addded advantage of greatly improved durability and longevity.
I think I mentioned to you that I'm still bedding the discs in (and that this may take up to 1000 miles)
So far the the increase in initial bite has been a vast improvement over the previous steel discs I've been using as a stopgap.
I'm told that the stopping power will improve further as the faces of the discs gain their full transfer layer and the pad and disc faces bed in to each other.
The brakes on this car have been a major issue since its purchase last November,I'm hoping that the ST discs will finally solve the problem once and for all.
I'll keep you updated on their performance once the bedding in procedure has been completed.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 10th September 02:07
with track and country road drivingSlippydiff said:
Craig, good to speak to you today. It was my car you saw fitted with the ST Carbon Ceramic discs at Ragley Hall.
The product seemed to generate a lot of genuine interest from concerned and aggrieved owners of PCCB equipped cars (including some 997 GT3/RS owners who still have concerns over the durability of the V3 PCCBs fitted to these cars )
From my point of view, if I didn't think the product was up to the job (both from a safety and performance standpoint) I'd most certainly not have put my hand in my pocket and volunteered to be a "guinea pig" (and without wishing to speak out of turn, or indeed on 993RSRs behalf) I'd be surprised if he'd even consider fitting them to his considerably quicker CGT if he had any misgivings as to their suitability for the job, bearing in mind their intended use on his car.
The difference in steering response and (suspension damping) since fitting the discs to my car late last week has been a genuine eye opener for me. So much so, that had I appreciated the difference they made to the car prior to their failure, I may have considered pursueing Porsche GB a lot more vehemently for a replacement set as a "goodwill gesture" when the originals failed less than 1000 miles after being given the OK by Reading.
The steel replacements may provide a cheap (ish) and durable (ish) resolution to the problems with the original PCCBs, but like the 997 GT3/RS (which was designed around the PCCB system originally) the 996 GT2 seems to benefit massively from the reduction in unsprung weight that the original PCCBs allowed.
The ST disc assemblies get very close to matching the weight reduction of the original PCCB but with the addded advantage of greatly improved durability and longevity.
I think I mentioned to you that I'm still bedding the discs in (and that this may take up to 1000 miles)
So far the the increase in initial bite has been a vast improvement over the previous steel discs I've been using as a stopgap.
I'm told that the stopping power will improve further as the faces of the discs gain their full transfer layer and the pad and disc faces bed in to each other.
The brakes on this car have been a major issue since its purchase last November,I'm hoping that the ST discs will finally solve the problem once and for all.
I'll keep you updated on their performance once the bedding in procedure has been completed.
good to see you are finally getting somewhere after all the agro you have had slipsThe product seemed to generate a lot of genuine interest from concerned and aggrieved owners of PCCB equipped cars (including some 997 GT3/RS owners who still have concerns over the durability of the V3 PCCBs fitted to these cars )
From my point of view, if I didn't think the product was up to the job (both from a safety and performance standpoint) I'd most certainly not have put my hand in my pocket and volunteered to be a "guinea pig" (and without wishing to speak out of turn, or indeed on 993RSRs behalf) I'd be surprised if he'd even consider fitting them to his considerably quicker CGT if he had any misgivings as to their suitability for the job, bearing in mind their intended use on his car.
The difference in steering response and (suspension damping) since fitting the discs to my car late last week has been a genuine eye opener for me. So much so, that had I appreciated the difference they made to the car prior to their failure, I may have considered pursueing Porsche GB a lot more vehemently for a replacement set as a "goodwill gesture" when the originals failed less than 1000 miles after being given the OK by Reading.
The steel replacements may provide a cheap (ish) and durable (ish) resolution to the problems with the original PCCBs, but like the 997 GT3/RS (which was designed around the PCCB system originally) the 996 GT2 seems to benefit massively from the reduction in unsprung weight that the original PCCBs allowed.
The ST disc assemblies get very close to matching the weight reduction of the original PCCB but with the addded advantage of greatly improved durability and longevity.
I think I mentioned to you that I'm still bedding the discs in (and that this may take up to 1000 miles)
So far the the increase in initial bite has been a vast improvement over the previous steel discs I've been using as a stopgap.
I'm told that the stopping power will improve further as the faces of the discs gain their full transfer layer and the pad and disc faces bed in to each other.
The brakes on this car have been a major issue since its purchase last November,I'm hoping that the ST discs will finally solve the problem once and for all.
I'll keep you updated on their performance once the bedding in procedure has been completed.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 10th September 02:07
Slippydiff said:
Craig, good to speak to you today. It was my car you saw fitted with the ST Carbon Ceramic discs at Ragley Hall.
The product seemed to generate a lot of genuine interest from concerned and aggrieved owners of PCCB equipped cars (including some 997 GT3/RS owners who still have concerns over the durability of the V3 PCCBs fitted to these cars )
From my point of view, if I didn't think the product was up to the job (both from a safety and performance standpoint) I'd most certainly not have put my hand in my pocket and volunteered to be a "guinea pig" (and without wishing to speak out of turn, or indeed on 993RSRs behalf) I'd be surprised if he'd even consider fitting them to his considerably quicker CGT if he had any misgivings as to their suitability for the job, bearing in mind their intended use on his car.
The difference in steering response and (suspension damping) since fitting the discs to my car late last week has been a genuine eye opener for me. So much so, that had I appreciated the difference they made to the car prior to their failure, I may have considered pursueing Porsche GB a lot more vehemently for a replacement set as a "goodwill gesture" when the originals failed less than 1000 miles after being given the OK by Reading.
The steel replacements may provide a cheap (ish) and durable (ish) resolution to the problems with the original PCCBs, but like the 997 GT3/RS (which was designed around the PCCB system originally) the 996 GT2 seems to benefit massively from the reduction in unsprung weight that the original PCCBs allowed.
The ST disc assemblies get very close to matching the weight reduction of the original PCCB but with the addded advantage of greatly improved durability and longevity.
I think I mentioned to you that I'm still bedding the discs in (and that this may take up to 1000 miles)
So far the the increase in initial bite has been a vast improvement over the previous steel discs I've been using as a stopgap.
I'm told that the stopping power will improve further as the faces of the discs gain their full transfer layer and the pad and disc faces bed in to each other.
The brakes on this car have been a major issue since its purchase last November,I'm hoping that the ST discs will finally solve the problem once and for all.
I'll keep you updated on their performance once the bedding in procedure has been completed.
Very interested to hear your feedback over time Slippydiff. From my various conversations with Surface Transforms and the heat calculations they've done for me, I'm convinced they are the way forward. They are constructed differently from the PCCB in as much as the fibres are longer, and are orientated in different directions to the PCCB discs. And the clincher for me, the whole disc is made of the same material rather than a 0.5mm coating that the PCCB discs have. The product seemed to generate a lot of genuine interest from concerned and aggrieved owners of PCCB equipped cars (including some 997 GT3/RS owners who still have concerns over the durability of the V3 PCCBs fitted to these cars )
From my point of view, if I didn't think the product was up to the job (both from a safety and performance standpoint) I'd most certainly not have put my hand in my pocket and volunteered to be a "guinea pig" (and without wishing to speak out of turn, or indeed on 993RSRs behalf) I'd be surprised if he'd even consider fitting them to his considerably quicker CGT if he had any misgivings as to their suitability for the job, bearing in mind their intended use on his car.
The difference in steering response and (suspension damping) since fitting the discs to my car late last week has been a genuine eye opener for me. So much so, that had I appreciated the difference they made to the car prior to their failure, I may have considered pursueing Porsche GB a lot more vehemently for a replacement set as a "goodwill gesture" when the originals failed less than 1000 miles after being given the OK by Reading.
The steel replacements may provide a cheap (ish) and durable (ish) resolution to the problems with the original PCCBs, but like the 997 GT3/RS (which was designed around the PCCB system originally) the 996 GT2 seems to benefit massively from the reduction in unsprung weight that the original PCCBs allowed.
The ST disc assemblies get very close to matching the weight reduction of the original PCCB but with the addded advantage of greatly improved durability and longevity.
I think I mentioned to you that I'm still bedding the discs in (and that this may take up to 1000 miles)
So far the the increase in initial bite has been a vast improvement over the previous steel discs I've been using as a stopgap.
I'm told that the stopping power will improve further as the faces of the discs gain their full transfer layer and the pad and disc faces bed in to each other.
The brakes on this car have been a major issue since its purchase last November,I'm hoping that the ST discs will finally solve the problem once and for all.
I'll keep you updated on their performance once the bedding in procedure has been completed.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 10th September 02:07
AS you rightly say JC, rather than the fabricated efforts that SGL : - http://www.sglcarbon.com/sgl_t/brakedisc/index.htm... supply to Porsche, the ST disc is far more durable as it is homogenous rather than a substrate onto which the the wearing surfaces are then bonded to.
In the very worst case the ST disc can be re-ground to allow its reuse in the event of surface damage. Something that the original PCCB with its very thin (0.5mm thick) wearing surface won't allow.
In the very worst case the ST disc can be re-ground to allow its reuse in the event of surface damage. Something that the original PCCB with its very thin (0.5mm thick) wearing surface won't allow.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 10th September 16:21
willr said:
Interesting - no holes or slots on these discs to release vapour pressure in the wet. Do Surface Transforms have anything to say about that?
willr, as I recall one of the original claims Porsche made for the PCCBs was their initial bite even when wet and cold.I've never been able to vouch for this as my PCCBs didn't work in the dry let alone the wet !
On the basis that the ST discs use an off the shelf Pagid/Porsche PCCB pad both front and rear, I'll let you know how they respond in wet conditions.
As regards drilling or slotting the disc face, the ST discs are incredibly hard in comparison with their steel equivalent, and whilst ST have experimented with drilling them , they found it a very expensive (due to the nature of the material required to drill the material efficiently) but also there was little or no improvement in braking efficiency after drilling.
From a personal perspective I found the JZM/Alcon discs to be incredibly noisy during high speed stops (and after repeated use they got worse) whether this was due to the very agressive "hook" shaped slots on the the faces of the disc or the RS29 pads or a combination of both, I'm still unsure.
What I would say is this, the ST discs are almost silent in operation (and they're still a fair way off being fully bedded in)
I think any drilling or slotting of a disc face disc will by its very nature tend to make it noisier in operation.
Every car I've driven with drilled discs : 964RS, 993 RS, MK1 GT3 (to name a few) have had brakes that hum and growl noticeably when used to slow the car from high speeds.
supermono said:
Any pics of these? And are they now in full production?
SM
Ditto, sounds like another investment opportunity for my evil 2! SM
Joking aside, i'd be very interested in your review slippydiff, once you have them fully bedded.
A little info here: http://www.systemst.com/products/product-overview
C.
Edited by cableguy on Monday 10th September 17:01
willr said:
Interesting - no holes or slots on these discs to release vapour pressure in the wet. Do Surface Transforms have anything to say about that?
Response from Surface Transforms:We have found that we do not need to cross drill or grove the discs for out gassing, you could argue that cross drilling may slightly weaken the disc. The main reason for not cross drilling discs is the very high expense of doing it. Because we would need to do the cross drilling after the disc is siliconised, we would wear out a large number of polycrystalline diamond tipped drill bits, current estimates are in the region of £600/disc for this alone. A ceramic disc carries a layer of pad material bedded onto its surface and the friction occurs as a liquid phase of pad material between the disc and the pad which does not seem to be affected by wet weather
supermono said:
Any pics of these? And are they now in full production?
SM
SM, these are the Carbon Ceramic discs I mentioned whilst you were investigating (and we were discussing) the PCCB issues prior to purchasing your current car.SM
Production is being ramped up slowly, and lead times are currently ITRO 8-10 weeks.
Further information can be found on the MOVIT website here :- (MOVEIT are the European distributor for the ST discs) http://www.movit.de/rahmen/ceramic.ht
These are pictures of the front and rear discs installed on the car using all the original PCCB mounting hardware (except for the original (and often awkward to remove) crossheaded disc to bell mounting screws)
Front installation
Rear installation
Rear Disc
Front Disc
Further pictures of the product can also be found on the MOVIT website.
Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 10th September 17:34
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 11th September 13:08
I have some shares in this company. I wonder if it's as a result of this post that their price has gone up 21% today They work in the aerospace sector as well slowing down aircraft so they should know their onions
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=SCE.L
They work in the aerospace sector as well slowing down aircraft so they should know their onionshttp://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=SCE.L
Edited by Rawhide on Monday 10th September 17:38
Rawhide said:
I have some shares in this company. I wonder if it's as a result of this post that their price has gone up 21% today They work in the aerospace sector as well slowing down aircraft so they should know their onions
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=SCE.L
So I should have bought before my post ? ....awww They work in the aerospace sector as well slowing down aircraft so they should know their onionshttp://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=SCE.L
Edited by Rawhide on Monday 10th September 17:38
Rawhide said:
I have some shares in this company. I wonder if it's as a result of this post that their price has gone up 21% today They work in the aerospace sector as well slowing down aircraft so they should know their onions
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=SCE.L
I await my commision cheque....... They work in the aerospace sector as well slowing down aircraft so they should know their onionshttp://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=SCE.L
Edited by Rawhide on Monday 10th September 17:38
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 11th September 13:10
The fixings between the bells and the discs look similar to the Alcon fixings, which after time allowed a lot of movement (Steve Merritt's discs showed a huge amount of movement) due to either wearing of the pins or oversizing of the holes.
The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
gfreeman said:
The fixings between the bells and the discs look similar to the Alcon fixings, which after time allowed a lot of movement (Steve Merritt's discs showed a huge amount of movement) due to either wearing of the pins or oversizing of the holes.
The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
The Performance Friction fixings look to be a different league to the Alcons, with a greater number of pins and a spring clip device for each pair of fixings, restricting any movement which causes the wear.
I trust this outfit knows the engineering involved with the bell to disc connection.
You would have thought Alcon and Brembo would have vast experience with engineering two-piece rotors but it took Alcon a couple of goes! Do Brembo's still exhibit a slight death rattle???.
Slippydiff said:
supermono said:
Any pics of these? And are they now in full production?
SM
SM, these are the Carbon Ceramic discs I mentioned whilst you were investigating (and we were discussing) the PCCB issues prior to purchasing your current car.SM
Production is being ramped up slowly, and lead times are currently ITRO 8-10 weeks.
Further information can be found on the MOVIT website here :- (MOVEIT are the European distributor for the ST discs) http://www.movit.de/rahmen/ceramic.ht
These are pictures of the front and rear discs installed on the car using all the original PCCB mounting hardware (except for the original (and often awkward to remove) crossheaded disc to bell mounting screws)
(Clearly Porsche did their homework on making the mounting set up refined enough for road use and forgot the development of the discs themselves !!)
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 18th September 14:07
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