997 Gen 2 DFI Engines - Woes finally sorted?

[MrTickle]

Well I have got an Audi S6 V10 with 83,000 miles.

Still pulls pretty strong - but must admit I have not rolling road checked the bhp.

If you can clock 100K without any real noticeable difference on a 911 I wont be losing sleep over it.

[bcnrml]

drmark said:

With respect Ian - the coking subject is not on hold, it is non existent until such time as someone shows it to be an issue.

It is an issue and it does exist. As Ian already stated, the extent of the issue has not yet been confirmed for the 997, but it has been confirmed elsewhere for a Cayenne. Ian and I contributed to that thread (he even started it, IIRC).

For a self-styled rocket scientist (possibly with a PhD), your response completely rejects the adage "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence". Worse, now that I have reminded us all on this thread of a case affecting a Porsche engined car (see Ian's original thread - titled "Heads up etc"), the matter of evidence should lead you to amend your odd science on this thread. One would hope, of course (but I won't hold my breath!).

drmark said:

Why be so negative about loss of power and Porsche not coughing up when no one knows if coking is an issue with these engines.

He wasn't being negative. He was stating facts and sharing them. If you have deemed them "so negative" that was your interpretation. MTR expressed an interest in it from a scientific point of view. I share that view. So does Ian. So do the team at Hartech. Yet you, a self styled scientist want this shut up. Why?

drmark said:

Why not act on your paranoia and get your car scoped as you said you would weeks ago. If it's coked then there is indeed a problem. If it's not then you can lay it to rest.

He did act, and he's not shown any evidence on here as far as I can tell to suggest he is paranoid. Happily, he's responded to you directly. You should perhaps read (or remember that you even contributed to the thread documenting how he acted).

drmark said:

But all this what if crap is such a waste of time and energy.

Gosh, this really is the best bit - because you claim to be a rocket scientist and you don't see the irony in any of your statements on this subject.

Anyway, drmark, I'm not interested in conversing with you (for reasons you already know) so any response by you will be ignored. But for the sake of others who might be swayed by your points, I thought it would be helpful to point out just how much ill-informed and ill-researched rubbish you have put in one post.

Cordial saludos to all pursuing the science of DFi engines for the benefit of us all. It's time.....and I'm off to enjoy the sun.

[Phooey]

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

That is worrying. A friend has one, a beautiful car and an exquisite noise. My 997tt absolutely slaughters his Granturismo S, even my 360 is quicker. A C2S should pull away from a Granturismo, albeit slowly. I had a C2S (gen 2) stay with me in the 360, was only a short blast, but seemed to be just as quick.

Are you sure it was the newer 4.7 and not the 4.2? I've driven said car (my mates), and it really is a quick piece. Supposed to be 440bhp... but i swear it's pushing 500, maybe more. Just feels extremely rapid for a near-on 2 tonne vehicle. We had a few good runs, and the Mazzer was glued to my ass. I'm sure it's the same engine from the 430, just *supposedly* downtuned?? In all honesty, i expected to slightly pull away from him. Feckin coked. Must be

[kbf1981]

mollytherocker said:

Do these engines mark the end of the much discussed weaknesses, i.e; liner cracking, bore scoring and IMS failures?

Can we now buy with confidence?

Or is it too early to conclude? Is coking up a real issue on these engines?

MTR

Had 2, both have been fking awesome - in technical terms

[Mario149]

Phooey said:

Are you sure it was the newer 4.7 and not the 4.2? I've driven said car (my mates), and it really is a quick piece. Supposed to be 440bhp... but i swear it's pushing 500, maybe more. Just feels extremely rapid for a near-on 2 tonne vehicle. We had a few good runs, and the Mazzer was glued to my ass. I'm sure it's the same engine from the 430, just *supposedly* downtuned?? In all honesty, i expected to slightly pull away from him. Feckin coked. Must be

Not sure about the Maser GT, but the 4200/GS have a bored out and detuned version of the 360 Modena engine if memory serves....

The engine in my old 4200 is still the favourite engine I've had the privilege to have under my right foot bar the Enzo V12 in a 599 I drove last year.

[drmark]

bcnrml said:

Gosh, this really is the best bit - because you claim to be a rocket scientist and you don't see the irony in any of your statements on this subject.

Anyway, drmark, I'm not interested in conversing with you (for reasons you already know) so any response by you will be ignored. But for the sake of others who might be swayed by your points, I thought it would be helpful to point out just how much ill-informed and ill-researched rubbish you have put in one post.

Cordial saludos to all pursuing the science of DFi engines for the benefit of us all. It's time.....and I'm off to enjoy the sun.

I am all for anticipating issues - it's a fundamental of my work - but we address them when and if they arise and concentrate on advancement in the meantime. If we didn't there would be no engines to worry about - let alone any jet or rocket engines. Not being narky, just realistic. I really wish people enjoyed what they had rather than worried about things that may never happen. I don't have a gen 2 so no vested interest. This thread will run and run - all I ask is that it is based on fact rather than speculation. But this is PH ....
Over and out.

[peterg1955]

Does this coking issue mean we should all be getting a couple of shots of Redex put in when we fill up like my Dad used to do back in the 60s ?

[JLJ]

Phooey said:

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

That is worrying. A friend has one, a beautiful car and an exquisite noise. My 997tt absolutely slaughters his Granturismo S, even my 360 is quicker. A C2S should pull away from a Granturismo, albeit slowly. I had a C2S (gen 2) stay with me in the 360, was only a short blast, but seemed to be just as quick.

Are you sure it was the newer 4.7 and not the 4.2? I've driven said car (my mates), and it really is a quick piece. Supposed to be 440bhp... but i swear it's pushing 500, maybe more. Just feels extremely rapid for a near-on 2 tonne vehicle. We had a few good runs, and the Mazzer was glued to my ass. I'm sure it's the same engine from the 430, just *supposedly* downtuned?? In all honesty, i expected to slightly pull away from him. Feckin coked. Must be

It's a 4.7 'S'. Said friend is a little 'light in the loafers' and isn't the most aggressive guy behind the wheel. Having said that, the 360 definately gets off the line much better than the Maser. The 997tt is out and out a lot faster, regardless.

I shall try and get a drive of the Maser this weekend as I'll be seeing him, I shall report back!

[tomw2000]

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

OT: what's the more hardcore version of that masser called? Mate being loaned one over weekend. He previously had the model you refer to.
Will let you know what the hardcore one is like?'or maybe that IS the mc?

[Martian O]

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

Are you still hankering after a Turbo?

[whoami]

tomw2000 said:

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

OT: what's the more hardcore version of that masser called? Mate being loaned one over weekend. He previously had the model you refer to.
Will let you know what the hardcore one is like?'or maybe that IS the mc?

MC Stradale

[Wills2]

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

That is worrying. A friend has one, a beautiful car and an exquisite noise. My 997tt absolutely slaughters his Granturismo S, even my 360 is quicker. A C2S should pull away from a Granturismo, albeit slowly. I had a C2S (gen 2) stay with me in the 360, was only a short blast, but seemed to be just as quick.

Are you sure it was the newer 4.7 and not the 4.2? I've driven said car (my mates), and it really is a quick piece. Supposed to be 440bhp... but i swear it's pushing 500, maybe more. Just feels extremely rapid for a near-on 2 tonne vehicle. We had a few good runs, and the Mazzer was glued to my ass. I'm sure it's the same engine from the 430, just *supposedly* downtuned?? In all honesty, i expected to slightly pull away from him. Feckin coked. Must be

It's a 4.7 'S'. Said friend is a little 'light in the loafers' and isn't the most aggressive guy behind the wheel. Having said that, the 360 definately gets off the line much better than the Maser. The 997tt is out and out a lot faster, regardless.

I shall try and get a drive of the Maser this weekend as I'll be seeing him, I shall report back!

Not difficult to understand a 440bhp car staying with a 911 GTS or a C2S gen2 staying with a 360, I find you need a lot more power and torque to really show a meaningful difference on the road esp when your starting speed is say 40-60 mph.

From a standing start the 911 should have a good advantage due to weight and traction but thats not really real world driving.

I've had Vantages and e92 M3's keep up with my C2S but with similiar power and torque I'd fully expect them to.

[Wills2]

As far as this coking issue is concerned, I cannot understand (if it is happening) why after the engine has been on the market for nearly 3 years that there isn't one published example of a coked gen2 911 engine?

The Americans are pretty hot on this stuff (over on rennlist) lots of complaints about oil usage but no evidence of coking.

But again as many people say their cars don't use oil that complain about oil usage.

After 3 years and with thousands of cars delivered I think the "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" arguement is wearing a bit thin.

I do have a dog in this fight, and therefore would love some evidence gents (you know who you are)

[JLJ]

Wills2 said:

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

That is worrying. A friend has one, a beautiful car and an exquisite noise. My 997tt absolutely slaughters his Granturismo S, even my 360 is quicker. A C2S should pull away from a Granturismo, albeit slowly. I had a C2S (gen 2) stay with me in the 360, was only a short blast, but seemed to be just as quick.

Are you sure it was the newer 4.7 and not the 4.2? I've driven said car (my mates), and it really is a quick piece. Supposed to be 440bhp... but i swear it's pushing 500, maybe more. Just feels extremely rapid for a near-on 2 tonne vehicle. We had a few good runs, and the Mazzer was glued to my ass. I'm sure it's the same engine from the 430, just *supposedly* downtuned?? In all honesty, i expected to slightly pull away from him. Feckin coked. Must be

It's a 4.7 'S'. Said friend is a little 'light in the loafers' and isn't the most aggressive guy behind the wheel. Having said that, the 360 definately gets off the line much better than the Maser. The 997tt is out and out a lot faster, regardless.

I shall try and get a drive of the Maser this weekend as I'll be seeing him, I shall report back!

Not difficult to understand a 440bhp car staying with a 911 GTS or a C2S gen2 staying with a 360, I find you need a lot more power and torque to really show a meaningful difference on the road esp from say 40-60 mph.

From a standing start the 911 should have a good advantage due to weight and traction but thats not really real world driving.

I've had Vantages and e92 M3's keep up with my C2S but with similiar power and torque I'd fully expect them to.

Very true, there usually has to be a fair amount of power differential to 'pull away' from another performance car. However, the 997tt with only 40bhp difference, pulls cleanly away from the Granturismo S as it does from my (80bhp down) 360.

As previously said, I don't believe my friend is getting the most from the Maser, so could conceive of it keeping with the 360 or a C2S if driven 'properly'.
This discussion really brings home just how effective the 480bhp is in the 997tt. The 911 turbo has always punched above it's weight. The new 997tt S with a mere 530bhp is right up there with much higher powered super cars in terms of sheer pace. Stuttgart ponies really do pull harder than most

[Wills2]

JLJ said:

Wills2 said:

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

JLJ said:

Phooey said:

I reckon mine is coked. Couldn't shake a Granturismo S MC-shift off my tail the other day. It was firmly locked-on upto 1.3 leptons

That is worrying. A friend has one, a beautiful car and an exquisite noise. My 997tt absolutely slaughters his Granturismo S, even my 360 is quicker. A C2S should pull away from a Granturismo, albeit slowly. I had a C2S (gen 2) stay with me in the 360, was only a short blast, but seemed to be just as quick.

Are you sure it was the newer 4.7 and not the 4.2? I've driven said car (my mates), and it really is a quick piece. Supposed to be 440bhp... but i swear it's pushing 500, maybe more. Just feels extremely rapid for a near-on 2 tonne vehicle. We had a few good runs, and the Mazzer was glued to my ass. I'm sure it's the same engine from the 430, just *supposedly* downtuned?? In all honesty, i expected to slightly pull away from him. Feckin coked. Must be

It's a 4.7 'S'. Said friend is a little 'light in the loafers' and isn't the most aggressive guy behind the wheel. Having said that, the 360 definately gets off the line much better than the Maser. The 997tt is out and out a lot faster, regardless.

I shall try and get a drive of the Maser this weekend as I'll be seeing him, I shall report back!

Not difficult to understand a 440bhp car staying with a 911 GTS or a C2S gen2 staying with a 360, I find you need a lot more power and torque to really show a meaningful difference on the road esp from say 40-60 mph.

From a standing start the 911 should have a good advantage due to weight and traction but thats not really real world driving.

I've had Vantages and e92 M3's keep up with my C2S but with similiar power and torque I'd fully expect them to.

Very true, there usually has to be a fair amount of power differential to 'pull away' from another performance car. However, the 997tt with only 40bhp difference, pulls cleanly away from the Granturismo S as it does from my (80bhp down) 360.

It's the torque thats the killer punch of the TT. 40bhp more than the Maserati but 120ft/lb more torque, thats like having another engine!

As someone once said power sells cars but torque wins races...

Edited by Wills2 on Saturday 7th May 11:04

[Phooey]

Wills2 said:

From a standing start the 911 should have a good advantage due to weight and traction but thats not really real world driving.

Thing is i reckon in the real world, auto's are so much quicker. Trying to get each gear change spot on in a manual is an art in itself (one i'm sure i haven't yet mastered admittedly), whereas in an auto, every run is upto optimum performance. So in that i reckon I or any average driver in a manual would be hard pushed (or lucky) to pull away from any auto car with equivalent power - regardless of power-to-weight ratio. The book times mean nothing in the real world. IYNWIM

I have driven this Mazzer, and it is very very quick for a 2 tonne machine

Tom - Mc Stradale

Martian O - I will NOT have a turbo. untill gen2 PDK's are £75 - £80k

[Martian O]

Phooey said:

....Martian O - I will NOT have a turbo. untill gen2 PDK's are £75 - £80k

Pooey, you don't really want a PDK, surely? They're great at 8/10ths but sheite when pressing on.

[Wills2]

Phooey said:

Wills2 said:

From a standing start the 911 should have a good advantage due to weight and traction but thats not really real world driving.

Thing is i reckon in the real world, auto's are so much quicker. Trying to get each gear change spot on in a manual is an art in itself (one i'm sure i haven't yet mastered admittedly), whereas in an auto, every run is upto optimum performance. So in that i reckon I or any average driver in a manual would be hard pushed (or lucky) to pull away from any auto car with equivalent power - regardless of power-to-weight ratio. The book times mean nothing in the real world. IYNWIM

I have driven this Mazzer, and it is very very quick for a 2 tonne machine

Tom - Mc Stradale

Martian O - I will NOT have a turbo. untill gen2 PDK's are £75 - £80k

I'm with you on that, my gear changes aren't the best either! But a manual is so much more enjoyable, I've always thought autos are faster as all you have to do is plant your right foot in any given situation.

I guess my point ref off the line was PDK 911 GTS vs MC GT the 911 would pull away up to 60-70mph but once at 60-70mph, there would be nothing in it, as you have experienced.

I wonder if Maserati understate the power output to make sure they don't upset their friends at Ferrari?

[Phooey]

Wills2 said:

I guess my point ref off the line was PDK 911 GTS vs MC GT the 911 would pull away up to 60-70mph but once at 60-70mph, there would be nothing in it, as you have experienced.

Agree on the PDK. I had a GTS PDK for a few days and it really did feel the quicker car (than my manual GTS). I've not driven anything that moves off the traffic lights like that PDK, and that was just in standard setting WITHOUT using 'launch-control'.

Wills2 said:

I wonder if Maserati understate the power output to make sure they don't upset their friends at Ferrari?

You wouldn't be the first to say this. And i don't think you'll be the last either

Martian O said:

Pooey, you don't really want a PDK, surely? They're great at 8/10ths but sheite when pressing on.

I would deffo consider a PDK mate. My first initial test (2-3 hours) was not enough to learn how the PDK thinks/operates. I spent 6 days and probably at least 300 miles with 2 997 PDK's. I absolutely fell for the box, it was a pleasure to drive slow, and fast. I admittedly didn't have it in 'Sport-Plus' for long - this i found held onto the gear for too long, and i was constantly over-riding it manually (changing up) then having to wait for it to adjust back to 'auto'. I found the best mode was to have it in 'Sport' (dampers set to 'Normal'), just to sharpen the throttle a little. Leaving 'Sport' off altogether also made for a satisfying ride/drive, with the next cog only a small press of the accelerator pedal. I didn't even bother with using the paddles - i wasn't on track, and the gearbox in 'auto' can do a much better job than i can

[911p]

Phooey said:

I would deffo consider a PDK...

Would you go PDK or manual next time then?