Slow window fix using relays

Slow window fix using relays

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RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Friday 29th May 2020
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I’m still not happy with my pax window. With the door open, when the window goes up, I can see the voltage dropping to around 9.5v. The window goes up properly now, but I can see it struggling at the top, and I’d like it perfect now I’ve got the card off.

I’ve greased the motor and mechanism, changed the inline connector in the door and the one at the lower A post.

I suspect the motor’s tired, and the Door Module can’t supply the current required.

Ideally, I’d like to buy and try a new motor, but TVR parts are out of stock.

I powered the motor directly from the battery, and it flies up. My conclusion being the motor will work perfectly well, just not with the module smile

So.....

I’ve done a little diagram using One of the Two output wires, from the module.

The output wire on the module sends a positive or a negative, depending on which way you want the window to go.

Looks like it can be done with Two double pole relays, situated next to the door module.

My question, as I haven’t tried it yet.... How does it look ? What have I done wrong ? Can it be made simpler ? biggrin



Edit.... I’m relying on One of those outputs from the door module, being volt free. Which I haven’t tested yet smile

Edited by RUSSELLM on Friday 29th May 21:09

Penelope Stopit

8,179 posts

73 months

Friday 29th May 2020
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Sorry about my lack of time to study your diagram, bedtime coming up

Using this set-up and it works very well on my Peugeot 306




RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Friday 29th May 2020
quotequote all
Cheers, but I don’t think that’ll work in the Cerb. The ‘Open‘ and ‘Close‘ on that vehicle, I presume is a 3 position rocker switch.

On the cerbera, the motor has 2 wires, that go back to the door module.

It sends a positive down terminal 1 and a ground down terminal 2, to make the window go up.

And reverses the signals, to make the window go down.

I need to check tomorrow, to see what’s on those two outputs, whilst there’s no command.


Byker28i

33,716 posts

181 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
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Is it just that the motor is tired,worn brushes, dirty commutator?

Penelope Stopit

8,179 posts

73 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
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Morning

Recently sat down with pen and paper in an attempt to simplify the job

Half way through drawing a diagram realised it was going to end up the same as the one uploaded yesterday

Hoping that the above diagram does do the job

If you concentrate on the positive outputs (module negative outputs aren't required)

Notice that a positive output from module terminal 1 can be connected to the close relay instead of my switch

Notice that a positive output from module terminal 2 can be connected to the open relay instead of my switch

Any good ?


Penelope Stopit

8,179 posts

73 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all
If all is good

The motor would be disconnected from the module and connected across the 2 relays

The module terminals 1 and 2 cables would be connected to the relay coils

RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all
Penelope Stopit said:
If all is good

The motor would be disconnected from the module and connected across the 2 relays

The module terminals 1 and 2 cables would be connected to the relay coils
Cheers Penelope smile That’s better than my way, and and it’s going to be easier to find a 10A SP relay, than a DP version.

One observation, the controller appears to have Two 20A separately fused ignition feeds for the windows. They’ve used 1.5mm cable, presumably thin wall.

However, they’ve used a single ground wire, also 1.5mm. I half expected to find something slightly bigger there.

I’ll get some relays ordered.

RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
Is it just that the motor is tired,worn brushes, dirty commutator?
Definitely one of the factors. Plus a tired mechanism. Less than perfect rubber/felt on the runners, incorrect door seals etc.

I’ll get a new motor as soon as they get one in stock.

Only problem I see, is that the door controller can probably switch 5A quite easily. Even though they’ve used 21A cable protected by a 20A fuse.

When everything on that door is replaced, I’ve no doubt it draws less than 5A, and everything works fine, as it drives out the factory.

The problem arises, when you dare to not grease the motor/mechanism on a daily basis. Or if you take the car out of a climate controlled environment, eg outside, and nature takes it’s course. All of a sudden, that system needs to pull 6A to close the window, and that door module can’t do it smile

Penelope Stopit

8,179 posts

73 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
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Very good then, was worth posting it

Could be good if you were to create a window mod topic once completed and proven good, many will benefit from your work, just a thought

If I am looking at the correct set-up

Earths at J48 spliced, don't know what main earth at J46 does, you very likely will


Bristol ave fag

200 posts

36 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
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I don't think the fets are integeral in these motors If you do use that set up then yes the windows will fly up and down but just be aware they will brake in half anything that gets in between. Just something to consider. You could check the force if you try and stop it while you run a feed to it i might be wrong.

RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all
It’s a job for next weekend now smile

I was hoping to put the relays next to the door controller, but there’s too much volt drop along the existing wires. So if I fit the relays, they’re going next to the HVAC module.

That said, anyone who’s got slow windows would probably be happy with this....

https://youtu.be/Lbk7Gy5rKf0

That’s with the windows fully down to start with, then setting the alarm. I couldn’t get that to move an inch, from that position originally. It’s had the mechanism and motor lubricated, and the inline connectors replaced, to get it working like that.

Driver’s side looks a bit rough now, in comparison smile

Penelope Stopit

8,179 posts

73 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
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RUSSELLM said:
That said, anyone who’s got slow windows would probably be happy with this....
https://youtu.be/Lbk7Gy5rKf0
Painful to watch

Fists clenched, hoping that it would get there

Byker28i

33,716 posts

181 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
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RUSSELLM said:
It’s a job for next weekend now smile

I was hoping to put the relays next to the door controller, but there’s too much volt drop along the existing wires. So if I fit the relays, they’re going next to the HVAC module.

That said, anyone who’s got slow windows would probably be happy with this....

https://youtu.be/Lbk7Gy5rKf0

That’s with the windows fully down to start with, then setting the alarm. I couldn’t get that to move an inch, from that position originally. It’s had the mechanism and motor lubricated, and the inline connectors replaced, to get it working like that.

Driver’s side looks a bit rough now, in comparison smile
Wow that drivers side is very slow. Mine are about same as your passenger side so I thought that was slow and you were trying to make it like a normal car speed.

RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
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That passenger side was as good as seized, in the fully down position biggrin


FarmyardPants

3,647 posts

182 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
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FWIW I had a new motor and it improved it a bit, but it has got steadily slower again over the years. Have replaced the felt, which didn’t make any difference.

So with your relay mod Russ will you need to run a +ve (and maybe also an Earth) through into the door? Would love to fix my windows, don’t care if they chop anyone up smile

RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
Rather than disturb the door grommets, I’m going to put the relays above the front passenger’s knees, near the other modules.

There’s a grommet up there, that currently has the rear fuse box 12v coming through it, so I’ll was going to put my new 12v through there, from the battery.

I could do the same with the 0v, but there’s a 17mm bolt up there for the roll cage, that has a great ground on it, so that’s been utilised smile

Edit... Just below that, you’ve got the Three inline connectors for the door. I’ve already took the Two wires for the motor out of there, and they’re now on their own new connector.

I suppose an added advantage of using the relays, is that it takes another load off that door controller. You’d like to think a seized motor would take out the supply fuse to the controller, but I’d put my money on the controller burning out first smile



Edited by RUSSELLM on Sunday 31st May 14:31

RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Sunday 19th July 2020
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Finally got round to sticking the relays in today. I haven’t tried the silicone spray trick yet, however, I don’t think there’s any need to.

I’ve replaced the inline connectors at the door, and used the same connectors for the relay fix, so I can switch back to conventional in a few seconds, if need be.

I wanted to site the relays by the door/window module in the boot, but a quick preliminary test, leads me to think the existing wiring from boot to doors, can’t carry the load. I suspect it’s under rated for a tired motor or the 24 year old cable is breaking down smile

Relays are by the HVAC module, and went through the grommet for a new positive and ground feed.

Little video with and without relays, excuse the bit n the middle where I switched connectorssmile ....

https://youtu.be/NWLsvd6idIo

From the outside, on an alarm set....

https://youtu.be/KrHV9Rvtv5w




Byker28i

33,716 posts

181 months

Monday 20th July 2020
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Was there any difference in speed in the before and after, difficult to see, but they are certainly quick either way.

Before the relay wiring, is that just lubrication and new connectors? Might have to change mine out. Which connectors did you use?

Edited by Byker28i on Monday 20th July 08:53

Penelope Stopit

8,179 posts

73 months

Monday 20th July 2020
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Nice fix, works really well

It was good to see the difference in voltage when you changed the wiring over


RUSSELLM

Original Poster:

5,659 posts

211 months

Monday 20th July 2020
quotequote all
Thanks Penelope, used your diagram too smile